With my o'day 322 there is extreme weather helm when the wind exceeds 15knots on a close haul. What is the cure for this? ken
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Ken; Going upwind in 15 knots true will make it about 19-22 apparent. Reef the main and leave the jib full for upwind work, or for off the wind let the traveler down some.
Check your mast position
Ken, If you have extreme weather helm at 15 knots you must still have more weather helm than is appropriate at lower wind speeds. This is a function of mast position. Is the top of the mast raked way aft? If so you need to retune the rig to a more forward position. Ease off the backstay and aft lowers, and tighten up the forestay to position the top of the mast somewhere close to straight up from the partners. Tighten the forward lowers to add the right mast bend to fit the main sail and go sailing. It is important to have some weather helm, but too much means that you're dragging the rudder. You will probably have to make several adjustments to get just the right amount of weather helm, but the increase in upwind speed will be worth it. Good luck PM
Ken, If you have extreme weather helm at 15 knots you must still have more weather helm than is appropriate at lower wind speeds. This is a function of mast position. Is the top of the mast raked way aft? If so you need to retune the rig to a more forward position. Ease off the backstay and aft lowers, and tighten up the forestay to position the top of the mast somewhere close to straight up from the partners. Tighten the forward lowers to add the right mast bend to fit the main sail and go sailing. It is important to have some weather helm, but too much means that you're dragging the rudder. You will probably have to make several adjustments to get just the right amount of weather helm, but the increase in upwind speed will be worth it. Good luck PM
A quick weather helm cure
is to ease the main some. This brings your center of effort forward pushing the bow to lee, putting your boat back on her feet,(reducing heel), and easing the pressure on the rudder. It is perfectly acceptable, (although I'll probably catch some flak here), to have the forward 1/3 of your main luff a bit. You can also move your traveler to lee. This will give the same effect. You will probably, at this point, lose some pointing ability. If you need to keep pointing, than reef the main and/or rake the mast a bit more forward as was previously mentioned, but not so much that you now develop lee helm. Hope this helps. -Roland s/v Fraulein II
is to ease the main some. This brings your center of effort forward pushing the bow to lee, putting your boat back on her feet,(reducing heel), and easing the pressure on the rudder. It is perfectly acceptable, (although I'll probably catch some flak here), to have the forward 1/3 of your main luff a bit. You can also move your traveler to lee. This will give the same effect. You will probably, at this point, lose some pointing ability. If you need to keep pointing, than reef the main and/or rake the mast a bit more forward as was previously mentioned, but not so much that you now develop lee helm. Hope this helps. -Roland s/v Fraulein II
mast rake
thanks for the advise on weather helm. last year i had the rig tuned and the mast was raked aft on the theory that it would improve upwind performance. it sounds if the mast should be returned to a more forward position. also with a main sail that is aged and causing a cup in the leech could be a contributing factor. ken
thanks for the advise on weather helm. last year i had the rig tuned and the mast was raked aft on the theory that it would improve upwind performance. it sounds if the mast should be returned to a more forward position. also with a main sail that is aged and causing a cup in the leech could be a contributing factor. ken
more mast rake will increase weather helm
almost always designers design weather helm in boats. however I don't think any of them take the time to fine tune them ,from what comes out on the drawing board. more rake moves the center of effort of the sail plan aft. ideally you want pretty much of a neutral helm. if you have a tiller, just enough to feel the rudder pressure. at any rate in 10knots of wind you should'nt have more than 5degrees of rudder to keep it in the groove. I'd go back to the orig setting and start taking the rake out 2" at a time ,go sailing and see how she performs. this could take a few times but you'll be happy w/ the change in perf. and ease of handling. when its just right its soo easy to keep it in the groove. on my 79 o'day 30 i finally ended up taking 7 of 9" of rake out that the book called for in the manual. if the draft in main sail is way aft ie more than 50% then you need more halyard tension or more cunningham to get the draft back forward.this could mean quit a bit more tension than just removing the wrinkles in the luff. as a sailmaker once told me, in an old dacron sail you might have to stretch the bejesus in the luff to get the draft forward.
almost always designers design weather helm in boats. however I don't think any of them take the time to fine tune them ,from what comes out on the drawing board. more rake moves the center of effort of the sail plan aft. ideally you want pretty much of a neutral helm. if you have a tiller, just enough to feel the rudder pressure. at any rate in 10knots of wind you should'nt have more than 5degrees of rudder to keep it in the groove. I'd go back to the orig setting and start taking the rake out 2" at a time ,go sailing and see how she performs. this could take a few times but you'll be happy w/ the change in perf. and ease of handling. when its just right its soo easy to keep it in the groove. on my 79 o'day 30 i finally ended up taking 7 of 9" of rake out that the book called for in the manual. if the draft in main sail is way aft ie more than 50% then you need more halyard tension or more cunningham to get the draft back forward.this could mean quit a bit more tension than just removing the wrinkles in the luff. as a sailmaker once told me, in an old dacron sail you might have to stretch the bejesus in the luff to get the draft forward.
Rake or bend?
re: previous reply 1. Your shift key isn't working! 2. Do you mean mast rake, or mast bend? There doesn't seem to be much rake adjustment available on my boat (C-36) since the mast is stepped in a bolted-down cast step, and there is only about 2" give or take of fore and aft movement available at the partners. I suspect that the adjustments referred to are bending the mast, flattening the mainsail and having the same effect as rake. Comments?
re: previous reply 1. Your shift key isn't working! 2. Do you mean mast rake, or mast bend? There doesn't seem to be much rake adjustment available on my boat (C-36) since the mast is stepped in a bolted-down cast step, and there is only about 2" give or take of fore and aft movement available at the partners. I suspect that the adjustments referred to are bending the mast, flattening the mainsail and having the same effect as rake. Comments?
rake not bend
The base that is bolted down can be moved. keep in mind that a small movement at the step corresponds to a lot more movement at the top of the mast. On my 30 the ratio of movement is roughly 5to1. On a masthead rig there's not much bend that can be achived. By tightening or loosening the back stay you achive more or less headstay sag to correspond to the wind cond. more wind, more back stay. Downwind w/kite backstay completely off. A fractional rig is a whole new ball game. The rake is measured by hanging a plumb bob on the end of main halyard. measure the dist. from back of mast at the boom. need i say that this can be difficult if there's any movement in boat. also you have to be sure the stern isn't loaded down with a lot of gear. hence having the boat sitting 3" low in the stern. To move the step all tension must be removed from the rig. Be sure to write down how many turns you loosened the turnbuckles so you can return to the same settings. This done it can be moved w/ a sledge hammer and a heavy block of wood (4x4 about 24" long)------DON'T BANG ON THE MAST DIRECTLY----- its helpful to use a perm marker at base so you have reference of how much its been moved. I have actually seen some masts on cruisers with the mast racked forward to get the center of effort correct. Not O'days though. The complete procedure is spelled out in the owners manual. also keep in mind some models had worse weather helm problems. On the later 30 models the mast was moved forward 3" to solve this problem, hence going from a 13'6" J dim. to a 13'3"
The base that is bolted down can be moved. keep in mind that a small movement at the step corresponds to a lot more movement at the top of the mast. On my 30 the ratio of movement is roughly 5to1. On a masthead rig there's not much bend that can be achived. By tightening or loosening the back stay you achive more or less headstay sag to correspond to the wind cond. more wind, more back stay. Downwind w/kite backstay completely off. A fractional rig is a whole new ball game. The rake is measured by hanging a plumb bob on the end of main halyard. measure the dist. from back of mast at the boom. need i say that this can be difficult if there's any movement in boat. also you have to be sure the stern isn't loaded down with a lot of gear. hence having the boat sitting 3" low in the stern. To move the step all tension must be removed from the rig. Be sure to write down how many turns you loosened the turnbuckles so you can return to the same settings. This done it can be moved w/ a sledge hammer and a heavy block of wood (4x4 about 24" long)------DON'T BANG ON THE MAST DIRECTLY----- its helpful to use a perm marker at base so you have reference of how much its been moved. I have actually seen some masts on cruisers with the mast racked forward to get the center of effort correct. Not O'days though. The complete procedure is spelled out in the owners manual. also keep in mind some models had worse weather helm problems. On the later 30 models the mast was moved forward 3" to solve this problem, hence going from a 13'6" J dim. to a 13'3"
Check your sails
Another thing your should check is the condition of your sails. Old sails will loose their shape resulting in a larger pocket. When they are in this shape it is impossible to flatten them when reaching close to the wind. When you are sailing close to the wind flatten your sails and then take a look up from the boom to see the shape.
Another thing your should check is the condition of your sails. Old sails will loose their shape resulting in a larger pocket. When they are in this shape it is impossible to flatten them when reaching close to the wind. When you are sailing close to the wind flatten your sails and then take a look up from the boom to see the shape.
Sailboats are all about Balance
When you are heeled over the sails center of effort moves to leeward and aft of your boats center of lateral resistance. This is what causes the boat to pull to winward. The boat is out of balance, just think of seesaw pivoting about the center the more lever arm you apply the easier it is to lift (twist). You turn the rudder to counteract the twisting force. At severe heel angles the rudder may actuall be slowing you down because of the aditional drag. You must depower the sails and bring the boat back on to her feet. Flatten the sails and move the traveler out to leeward. Move the traveler until you have about 3 deg of weather helm. Roland is right in that in fresh winds you will want the forward half of the main and jib luffing. It may seem a waste but it more efficient to be sailing flat on the boats bottom. In strong gusts you will sail on the leeches. You should also tighten the outhaul flat sails create less sidways heeling force than full sails. Tighten the cunningham hard to pull the draft forward and tighten the leech (flatter sail) Put some mast bend in to further flatten the mainsail, it also tensions the head stay which flattens the jib. When all else fails REEF the sails.
When you are heeled over the sails center of effort moves to leeward and aft of your boats center of lateral resistance. This is what causes the boat to pull to winward. The boat is out of balance, just think of seesaw pivoting about the center the more lever arm you apply the easier it is to lift (twist). You turn the rudder to counteract the twisting force. At severe heel angles the rudder may actuall be slowing you down because of the aditional drag. You must depower the sails and bring the boat back on to her feet. Flatten the sails and move the traveler out to leeward. Move the traveler until you have about 3 deg of weather helm. Roland is right in that in fresh winds you will want the forward half of the main and jib luffing. It may seem a waste but it more efficient to be sailing flat on the boats bottom. In strong gusts you will sail on the leeches. You should also tighten the outhaul flat sails create less sidways heeling force than full sails. Tighten the cunningham hard to pull the draft forward and tighten the leech (flatter sail) Put some mast bend in to further flatten the mainsail, it also tensions the head stay which flattens the jib. When all else fails REEF the sails.
More Jib Power . . .
Before Larry starts wrenching on his turnbuckles mightn't he benefit just from firming up on the jib sheets and/or moving the jib sheet blocks forward on their tracks in order to aid in reducing weather helm? Nick "Julia Bell" C-27 #86
Before Larry starts wrenching on his turnbuckles mightn't he benefit just from firming up on the jib sheets and/or moving the jib sheet blocks forward on their tracks in order to aid in reducing weather helm? Nick "Julia Bell" C-27 #86
No quite the opposite
If your overpowered w/ too big a head sail but don't want to change down. first tighten the halyard. this moves the draft forward in the sail. then move jib sheet blocks aft. this flattens bottom of sail and allows top to twist off reducing power up top and thereby reducing heel and bring the boat back on her feet thereby reducing weather helm. as mentioned earlier you must also deal with the main. tight halyard,tight cunningham,and outhaul. traveler down but not flogging main. if still have bad weatherhelm then its time to reef,smaller hd sail or both. he's right. a boat not on her feet is slow and a bear to handle. Of coarse we are talking about heavy air sailing here. Not just anormal thing at 10 knots true.
If your overpowered w/ too big a head sail but don't want to change down. first tighten the halyard. this moves the draft forward in the sail. then move jib sheet blocks aft. this flattens bottom of sail and allows top to twist off reducing power up top and thereby reducing heel and bring the boat back on her feet thereby reducing weather helm. as mentioned earlier you must also deal with the main. tight halyard,tight cunningham,and outhaul. traveler down but not flogging main. if still have bad weatherhelm then its time to reef,smaller hd sail or both. he's right. a boat not on her feet is slow and a bear to handle. Of coarse we are talking about heavy air sailing here. Not just anormal thing at 10 knots true.
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