I have a 1985 Hunter 34. My mast is raked about 5 inches and I have 5 inches of pre-bend. I have a generator in the stern lazerette along with a diesel fuel tank so I am stern heavy. I was in about 25 knots and gusting more of wind prior to a race which was going to be about 20 miles down wind and a reach for about three miles to the finish. I didn't want to be overpowered at the start so I kept the 155 rolled up and tried to maneuver on the main. To my supprise I could not tack and had to jibe. Is this lee helm typical with the Hunter 34's under main sail alone? We got a third. Had to give a Catalina 34 time !@#$%^&*()_ So much for handicap racing.
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More detail needed.......
Charlie, I have a hard time visualizing on what point of sail you were, how the sail was trimmed and what exactly you then tried to accomplish. Can you describe how far off the wind you were trying to sail; how much main you had up and how it was trimmed/flattened; and how far the boom was hiked out? Also, just to make sure, when you say "could not tack" do you mean that you were unable to make a "chickengybe"; i.e. turning the vessel through ~290 degrees? Also, by "could not" tack, do you mean because of extreme heel or because you kept getting into irons while trying to push her bows through the wind? I presume the H34 has a B&R rig; if so is it masthead or fractional? Sorry for all the questions fair winds Flying Dutchman
Charlie, I have a hard time visualizing on what point of sail you were, how the sail was trimmed and what exactly you then tried to accomplish. Can you describe how far off the wind you were trying to sail; how much main you had up and how it was trimmed/flattened; and how far the boom was hiked out? Also, just to make sure, when you say "could not tack" do you mean that you were unable to make a "chickengybe"; i.e. turning the vessel through ~290 degrees? Also, by "could not" tack, do you mean because of extreme heel or because you kept getting into irons while trying to push her bows through the wind? I presume the H34 has a B&R rig; if so is it masthead or fractional? Sorry for all the questions fair winds Flying Dutchman
Masthead
His boat does not have a B&R. Its a traditional masthead rig of the 80's. Odd that he should have lee helm under the main. The lateral forces are aft of the mast. We tend to fight weather helm under main alone. Gust have always tended to push us to the weather. Did he have the 150 rolled all the way? Some furling systems do not reef because the genoa becomes more full as it is furled. Ironically, partial furling may actually increase the power but in an off balanced way.
His boat does not have a B&R. Its a traditional masthead rig of the 80's. Odd that he should have lee helm under the main. The lateral forces are aft of the mast. We tend to fight weather helm under main alone. Gust have always tended to push us to the weather. Did he have the 150 rolled all the way? Some furling systems do not reef because the genoa becomes more full as it is furled. Ironically, partial furling may actually increase the power but in an off balanced way.
Yes it is a B
All the Hunter boats from day 1 with the execption of the Cherbuni Boats and the Frac rig boats are B
All the Hunter boats from day 1 with the execption of the Cherbuni Boats and the Frac rig boats are B
All H34's came with B
As Cliff wrote, a bit of headsail would have provided enough power to tack through the wind. Usually, sailing with only the main leads to weather helm, as the center of force is considerably behind the center balance. When the winds get above 15 knots, I find my H34 to have alot of weather helm. I usually move the traveler to lee or put in a reef. If it continues, I put in a second reef. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
As Cliff wrote, a bit of headsail would have provided enough power to tack through the wind. Usually, sailing with only the main leads to weather helm, as the center of force is considerably behind the center balance. When the winds get above 15 knots, I find my H34 to have alot of weather helm. I usually move the traveler to lee or put in a reef. If it continues, I put in a second reef. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
You lost to a Catalina?!
With my H34, I've never lost to a Catalina of any size. Oops, forgot that you said that you weren't using sails.
But I can still run at over two knots in 15 knots true, under dodger alone. That still beats 'em.
With my H34, I've never lost to a Catalina of any size. Oops, forgot that you said that you weren't using sails.
But I can still run at over two knots in 15 knots true, under dodger alone. That still beats 'em. Can't tack
Charlie: I'm not surprised that you couldn't tack. I have an H23 as was out in 25 knots + with a reefed main only. The boat will not tack trimmed like that. I had so much weather helm I thought the rudder had popped up. You will not get enough boat speed to overcome windage and wave action. You will have to have some jib to balace the boat and help bring it about by backwinding it. Jibing in 25 knots is a bit much for me.
Charlie: I'm not surprised that you couldn't tack. I have an H23 as was out in 25 knots + with a reefed main only. The boat will not tack trimmed like that. I had so much weather helm I thought the rudder had popped up. You will not get enough boat speed to overcome windage and wave action. You will have to have some jib to balace the boat and help bring it about by backwinding it. Jibing in 25 knots is a bit much for me.
More Detail
1.I had the whole main raised, no reef. 2. As I made the run for the starting line I pulled out the 155% Genoa and used a whisker pole going wing and wing for a while and then later sailing the polars for speed over ground. 3. I had to give the Catalina 34 five (5) seconds a mile and he was flying a 155% Genoa. Back to not being able to tack, I could not bring the boat through the wind and had the helm corrected for lee helm until it was time to tack. The wave action was about three to five feet. It got worse during the race with waves as high as 8 to ten. Glad they were on the stern. Conclusion, I had sufficient crew on the boat so I agree that I should have pulled out about 30% of the jib and maybe I would have had enough speed and power to bring it through the wind, backwinding the jib to complete the tack. Having lee helm with only the main up still blows my understanding of basic statics.
1.I had the whole main raised, no reef. 2. As I made the run for the starting line I pulled out the 155% Genoa and used a whisker pole going wing and wing for a while and then later sailing the polars for speed over ground. 3. I had to give the Catalina 34 five (5) seconds a mile and he was flying a 155% Genoa. Back to not being able to tack, I could not bring the boat through the wind and had the helm corrected for lee helm until it was time to tack. The wave action was about three to five feet. It got worse during the race with waves as high as 8 to ten. Glad they were on the stern. Conclusion, I had sufficient crew on the boat so I agree that I should have pulled out about 30% of the jib and maybe I would have had enough speed and power to bring it through the wind, backwinding the jib to complete the tack. Having lee helm with only the main up still blows my understanding of basic statics.
doesn't make sense
If you were going downwind for the first twenty miles, of course you couldn't tack. Tacking involves moving the bow through the wind, which is to say that it's what you do going upwind, not downwind. Am I missing something here? If you're getting lee helm going downwind, it means you're on the wrong jibe. At some point you had to have been sailing by the lee, with the main on the wrong side. That's quite possible if you're wing-on-wing, especially if you've got a lot of twist in the main and/or you were using a preventor. Bottom line: don't sail that way. If the lee helm overpowers the rudder, you'll round down. In other words, "ouch!"
If you were going downwind for the first twenty miles, of course you couldn't tack. Tacking involves moving the bow through the wind, which is to say that it's what you do going upwind, not downwind. Am I missing something here? If you're getting lee helm going downwind, it means you're on the wrong jibe. At some point you had to have been sailing by the lee, with the main on the wrong side. That's quite possible if you're wing-on-wing, especially if you've got a lot of twist in the main and/or you were using a preventor. Bottom line: don't sail that way. If the lee helm overpowers the rudder, you'll round down. In other words, "ouch!"
BTW
By the way, in our area, where it's a lot windier than there in Jacksonville, usually, a Hunter 34 only has to give a Catalina 34 three seconds a mile. That's because they're a little less tender, which means that the Hunter should kick butt in light air, but that the Catalina sails above its rating the more it blows.
By the way, in our area, where it's a lot windier than there in Jacksonville, usually, a Hunter 34 only has to give a Catalina 34 three seconds a mile. That's because they're a little less tender, which means that the Hunter should kick butt in light air, but that the Catalina sails above its rating the more it blows.
Tower of Babel; shades of the Iraq war?
Thanks for the details Charlie. Clearly, you tend to focus on other details than I do. In fact, this whole thread reminds me a bit of the biblical story of the Tower of Babel; everyone seems to be talking a different language. I wonder if some of the missing pieces from The National Museum in Bhagdad have made it to the USA by now and are putting some kind of spell on us. If so, it certainly helps to liven things up here. Never a dull moment! Seriously, though; three different issues are being marinated and cooked together in this wonderful stew, namely (1) B&R rig downwind sailing properties; (2)inability to tack on main alone; and (3) unexpected lee helm. I am inclined to tackle #3 (lee helm) first, as it appears to be the most surprising one. If we can't find a reasonable explanation here we probably have little chance of solving problems 2&3. John's explanation (sailing by the lee) may be the right one as you probably kept sailing on the old tack as long as possible in order to avoid tacking (which didn't work). However, this is not the first thread where there was a lot of confusion about terminology with regard to lee and weather helm. In particular, almost no one tries to distinguish between "true lee or weather helm" and the less often considered effects of an over- or under-balanced rudder. Just to make sure we are all on the same page, let me ask Charlie what HIS own definition of "lee helm" is. What exactly was he observing or feeling that made him conclude there was significant lee helm? This is certainly not meant as a trick question but is an attempt to help solve some of the remaining riddles here. Have fun Flying Dutchman
Thanks for the details Charlie. Clearly, you tend to focus on other details than I do. In fact, this whole thread reminds me a bit of the biblical story of the Tower of Babel; everyone seems to be talking a different language. I wonder if some of the missing pieces from The National Museum in Bhagdad have made it to the USA by now and are putting some kind of spell on us
. If so, it certainly helps to liven things up here. Never a dull moment! Seriously, though; three different issues are being marinated and cooked together in this wonderful stew, namely (1) B&R rig downwind sailing properties; (2)inability to tack on main alone; and (3) unexpected lee helm. I am inclined to tackle #3 (lee helm) first, as it appears to be the most surprising one. If we can't find a reasonable explanation here we probably have little chance of solving problems 2&3. John's explanation (sailing by the lee) may be the right one as you probably kept sailing on the old tack as long as possible in order to avoid tacking (which didn't work). However, this is not the first thread where there was a lot of confusion about terminology with regard to lee and weather helm. In particular, almost no one tries to distinguish between "true lee or weather helm" and the less often considered effects of an over- or under-balanced rudder. Just to make sure we are all on the same page, let me ask Charlie what HIS own definition of "lee helm" is. What exactly was he observing or feeling that made him conclude there was significant lee helm? This is certainly not meant as a trick question but is an attempt to help solve some of the remaining riddles here. Have fun Flying DutchmanTower of Babel??? Going to Windward Lee Helm
John and Hank, By any chance is the mast on the Hunter 34 forward of the center of resistance?? I was sailing to windward, trying to point as best I could. Conditions consisted of 20 to 25 knots of wind, 3 to 5 foot waves. Jib was totally furled. Main was up with no reef. I had to steer into the wind to keep from falling off. If I had a tiller instead of a wheel the tiller would have been pointing to leeward. Forget the race and handicap and other stuff that was dragged into this thread. I do not understand with the mainsail being the only sail up why I had a lee helm. Again, by any chance is the mast forward of the center of resistance on the Hunter 34??? Regards, Charlie
John and Hank, By any chance is the mast on the Hunter 34 forward of the center of resistance?? I was sailing to windward, trying to point as best I could. Conditions consisted of 20 to 25 knots of wind, 3 to 5 foot waves. Jib was totally furled. Main was up with no reef. I had to steer into the wind to keep from falling off. If I had a tiller instead of a wheel the tiller would have been pointing to leeward. Forget the race and handicap and other stuff that was dragged into this thread. I do not understand with the mainsail being the only sail up why I had a lee helm. Again, by any chance is the mast forward of the center of resistance on the Hunter 34??? Regards, Charlie
the "lee helm" mystery
With all that stuff in the stern and a masthead B&R rig it is hard for me to imagine that your center of effort would somehow be forward of your center of lateral resistance when sailing on the main alone, Charlie. Moreover, when sailing upwind in 25 knots on a full main one has to assume that you were heeling a fair bit, which usually adds to weather helm with a typical wide-beamed Hunter design (though not on all possible hull designs). However, I presume you were pinching quite a bit in order to keep heeling under control? This might also explain your low speed relative to the Catalina. Also, if you were pinching through a helm technique called "feathering" you would indeed repeatedly have to steer to weather.... However, the source of the force pushing the bows leeward is unclear to me, unless you would have a relatively large amount of windage foreward of the mast. This would be caused by high bows -- remember the weight in the stern -- and/or a dingy stowed on the foredeck and/or a loosely furled genoa..... Much of this could probably be rectified by keeping your speed up. I personally am not too crazy about unfurling a bit of genoa under these conditions since sail and furler could eventually get damaged and the shape of the small genoa slip would be terribly baggy, thus producing a lot of heeling moment and little drive when sailing close-hauled. Personally I would either take great pains to flatten the main in all directions in order to be able to point higher without having to pinch that much. Even putting a first reef in the main might give you a boat that behaves in a more normal manner and sails faster. Fair winds Flying Dutchman
With all that stuff in the stern and a masthead B&R rig it is hard for me to imagine that your center of effort would somehow be forward of your center of lateral resistance when sailing on the main alone, Charlie. Moreover, when sailing upwind in 25 knots on a full main one has to assume that you were heeling a fair bit, which usually adds to weather helm with a typical wide-beamed Hunter design (though not on all possible hull designs). However, I presume you were pinching quite a bit in order to keep heeling under control? This might also explain your low speed relative to the Catalina. Also, if you were pinching through a helm technique called "feathering" you would indeed repeatedly have to steer to weather.... However, the source of the force pushing the bows leeward is unclear to me, unless you would have a relatively large amount of windage foreward of the mast. This would be caused by high bows -- remember the weight in the stern -- and/or a dingy stowed on the foredeck and/or a loosely furled genoa..... Much of this could probably be rectified by keeping your speed up. I personally am not too crazy about unfurling a bit of genoa under these conditions since sail and furler could eventually get damaged and the shape of the small genoa slip would be terribly baggy, thus producing a lot of heeling moment and little drive when sailing close-hauled. Personally I would either take great pains to flatten the main in all directions in order to be able to point higher without having to pinch that much. Even putting a first reef in the main might give you a boat that behaves in a more normal manner and sails faster. Fair winds Flying Dutchman
Loosly furled Genoa
Henk, This was all prior to the start and had nothing to do with the race or the Catalina. I think you nailed it with loosely furled Genoa. I don't think it was loose but even furled tight the Genoa provides a pretty good area for the wind to push against. Heeling wasn't a problem, I had plenty of weight on the rail. Regards, Charlie
Henk, This was all prior to the start and had nothing to do with the race or the Catalina. I think you nailed it with loosely furled Genoa. I don't think it was loose but even furled tight the Genoa provides a pretty good area for the wind to push against. Heeling wasn't a problem, I had plenty of weight on the rail. Regards, Charlie
Railmeat ?!? NOW yur telling us!
Should've thought of that a little earlier, I guess. However, I am not a racer and when I see you dutifully declare 60 lbs of generator in the stern as part of the equation it never occurs to me that you might be "hiding" 500 lbs (?) of movable ballast on the weather rail... So, let's see how this disclosure might influence the previous discussions: (lee helm problem) Although, in and by itself, ballast on the weather rail should only cause lee helm if you are over-compensating (i.e. making the vessel heel to weather) it will tend to move the balance of factors affecting helm behavior more towards the lee side, I think. (tacking problem) You don't want to have to fight lee helm when trying to tack (since the rudder will be acting as a strong brake just when you need all the boat speed you can get). Therefore, it may make sense to build up speed "in the groove" and then initiate the tack by moving the ballast first in order to try and produce enough heel-induced weather helm to let you round up into the tack with the lowest possible rudder drag. Although producing "roll-tacks" by moving ballast is a less well established technique than producing "roll-gybes", I see no reason why this couldn't work (racers: am I overlooking something here?). Fair winds, Flying Dutchman
Should've thought of that a little earlier, I guess. However, I am not a racer and when I see you dutifully declare 60 lbs of generator in the stern as part of the equation it never occurs to me that you might be "hiding" 500 lbs (?) of movable ballast on the weather rail... So, let's see how this disclosure might influence the previous discussions: (lee helm problem) Although, in and by itself, ballast on the weather rail should only cause lee helm if you are over-compensating (i.e. making the vessel heel to weather) it will tend to move the balance of factors affecting helm behavior more towards the lee side, I think. (tacking problem) You don't want to have to fight lee helm when trying to tack (since the rudder will be acting as a strong brake just when you need all the boat speed you can get). Therefore, it may make sense to build up speed "in the groove" and then initiate the tack by moving the ballast first in order to try and produce enough heel-induced weather helm to let you round up into the tack with the lowest possible rudder drag. Although producing "roll-tacks" by moving ballast is a less well established technique than producing "roll-gybes", I see no reason why this couldn't work (racers: am I overlooking something here?). Fair winds, Flying Dutchman
My experience
I sail an '85 Legend 40 which is a stretched versiion of the 34 and has very similar sailing characteristics. With my (our) sailplan the boat sails very poorly with main alone. It is a high aspect small main with a relatively large foretriangle. In lighter air, the boat will rarely sail to weather at more than 2-3 knots with main alone. The CE is so far aft (with main only) of the CR that it loses a great deal of efficiency. This CE has such a long moment arm working that the underwater foils are forced to work at larger drag inducing angles to compensate. Tacking or going to weather in heavier air aggravates this situation because the drive of the sail with all this inefficiency doen't increase proportionally with the increase in drag from windage and sea state. If you're then trying to point without sufficient drive (and lift) your bow will then blow off. This will mimic lee helm and will keep you from tacking. The solution? Bear off to maintain boatspeed. You won't be able to point very high. Once you have boat speed you might be able to quickly get the bow around for a tack. Otherwise, I stand by my earlier post. With OUR sailplan, pulling out some genoa and reefing the main for a balanced plan works. It provides additional drive and also moves the CE forward where it belongs. The genoa shape is indeed compromised so that tacking angles have to be wider, however, it does still allow going to weather and tacking. Having a foam luff pad helps. I know this because we've made fairly long passages in this configuration going to weather in winds of 30 knots and steep seas. With traveller down and everything sheeted very hard we can maintain 5 to 5.5 knots at 50 degrees apparent. These are my personal experiences with our IOR type rig. I'm sure that these issues will be different for roachy main fractional rigs such as Henk's may be.
I sail an '85 Legend 40 which is a stretched versiion of the 34 and has very similar sailing characteristics. With my (our) sailplan the boat sails very poorly with main alone. It is a high aspect small main with a relatively large foretriangle. In lighter air, the boat will rarely sail to weather at more than 2-3 knots with main alone. The CE is so far aft (with main only) of the CR that it loses a great deal of efficiency. This CE has such a long moment arm working that the underwater foils are forced to work at larger drag inducing angles to compensate. Tacking or going to weather in heavier air aggravates this situation because the drive of the sail with all this inefficiency doen't increase proportionally with the increase in drag from windage and sea state. If you're then trying to point without sufficient drive (and lift) your bow will then blow off. This will mimic lee helm and will keep you from tacking. The solution? Bear off to maintain boatspeed. You won't be able to point very high. Once you have boat speed you might be able to quickly get the bow around for a tack. Otherwise, I stand by my earlier post. With OUR sailplan, pulling out some genoa and reefing the main for a balanced plan works. It provides additional drive and also moves the CE forward where it belongs. The genoa shape is indeed compromised so that tacking angles have to be wider, however, it does still allow going to weather and tacking. Having a foam luff pad helps. I know this because we've made fairly long passages in this configuration going to weather in winds of 30 knots and steep seas. With traveller down and everything sheeted very hard we can maintain 5 to 5.5 knots at 50 degrees apparent. These are my personal experiences with our IOR type rig. I'm sure that these issues will be different for roachy main fractional rigs such as Henk's may be.
Rick, that is a very insightful post!
Agree with you on all points, including the differences between the behavior of fractional and mast-top B&R rigs. I think this thread is finally starting to get somewhere!! The most insightful for me is your comment that the effect of the bows blowing off can mimick lee helm. I was already planning to revisit the lee helm issue in Charlie's situation one more time and your statement provides further encouragement to do so. Got to run now, unfortunately, so this will have to wait a bit..... Fair Winds Flying Dutchman
Agree with you on all points, including the differences between the behavior of fractional and mast-top B&R rigs. I think this thread is finally starting to get somewhere!! The most insightful for me is your comment that the effect of the bows blowing off can mimick lee helm. I was already planning to revisit the lee helm issue in Charlie's situation one more time and your statement provides further encouragement to do so. Got to run now, unfortunately, so this will have to wait a bit..... Fair Winds Flying Dutchman
OK, I've gotta ask.......
....I don't know if you guys are just having fun with me OR am I coming across as a pain in the ass? John, I was just pulling your chain, I didn't mean to sound like a "knowitall". I truly enjoy reading and posting to this site. I try to help where I can and pick up a few pointers along the way. I do have more than a few years of sailing and racing under the keel!
....I don't know if you guys are just having fun with me OR am I coming across as a pain in the ass? John, I was just pulling your chain, I didn't mean to sound like a "knowitall". I truly enjoy reading and posting to this site. I try to help where I can and pick up a few pointers along the way. I do have more than a few years of sailing and racing under the keel!
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