Hi all, I finally resurrected (dried out the carb, changed the oil, changed out fuel) my 2.5 horse kicker motor (after turtling my 170 back in October) and foamed out my mast this week-- and took the boat out for a nice lake sail on December 28. The wind was typical winter fare- steady and strong (15-20mph), so I ran with the mainsail only. During a couple 20mph wind peaks, I could hardly keep the tiller close to straight, the weather helm being so strong that the extension stick was almost yanked out of my hands-- the boat wanting to round up. This weather helm was stronger than ANY I've every felt in strong breezes WITH the jibsail flying as well. Any theory as to why this might be?-- I assume c.e. (center of effort) plays into this-- the power having been shifted aft. I assume other 170 sailors have experienced this phenomenon? For the info. of folks who read this forum, my mast foaming included drilling out the masthead rivets and removing it from the mast, sealing off the hole in the underside of the masthead (its underside below the two halyard blocks/pulleys is hallow) with duct tape and industrial adhesive, feeding 7/8" thickness(approx. 2' diameter) cylinder-shaped foam insulation normally used to jacket central air copper piping down into the mast, and sealing all rivets/cracks on the top 10 feet of the mast. The insulation stopped decending into the mast at about 13 feet (approx. the distance to the shroud tangs/rivets), so I assume it became blocked by rivets protruding into the hallow of the mast. Having only the top 13 feet of the mast foamed and holes sealed oughta buy me plenty of time, I figure, if capsized, to get to the centerboard and pull the boat back over -preventing a turtle. I'll do the actual 'capsize/foamed mast efficiency test' this May --right now the lake water's 60 degrees!!!- brrrrrrrrrr! Happy new year to all! Mike G.
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choice of sail
Not sure if the 170 can handle it, but that's why when the wind picks up, I sometimes fly the jib alone (sometimes I fly both at reduced sail or all jib and a little main -- roller furling). Fly with jib alone help counter the weather helm created by heeling. Fly with just main alone, you don't have anything to counter the weather helm created by heeling or the weather helm created by the main. So, if you think your rigging can handle running on jib alone, then try that next time. If that doesn't give you enough power, then put in more reef points and run all jib and a little main. If you don't balance your sails, you may end up breaking the rudder some day.
Not sure if the 170 can handle it, but that's why when the wind picks up, I sometimes fly the jib alone (sometimes I fly both at reduced sail or all jib and a little main -- roller furling). Fly with jib alone help counter the weather helm created by heeling. Fly with just main alone, you don't have anything to counter the weather helm created by heeling or the weather helm created by the main. So, if you think your rigging can handle running on jib alone, then try that next time. If that doesn't give you enough power, then put in more reef points and run all jib and a little main. If you don't balance your sails, you may end up breaking the rudder some day.
sounds like the boat is set up right.
If you sail it with only the main the boat should round up in a puff. there is nothing to balance the rig. So put up a small jib and the main if you cant handle that then its time to reef the main. then you can balance out the rig and the boat can become balanced. think of it this way more sail behind the mast makes weather helm. more sail ahead of the mast makes lee helm. on a nice day play with the sheets and you can see you should be able to steer the boat by using the sheets instead of the tiller. with the tiller straight tighten the jib the boat will fall off. slack the jib and tighten the mail and it will go up. interesting huh!
If you sail it with only the main the boat should round up in a puff. there is nothing to balance the rig. So put up a small jib and the main if you cant handle that then its time to reef the main. then you can balance out the rig and the boat can become balanced. think of it this way more sail behind the mast makes weather helm. more sail ahead of the mast makes lee helm. on a nice day play with the sheets and you can see you should be able to steer the boat by using the sheets instead of the tiller. with the tiller straight tighten the jib the boat will fall off. slack the jib and tighten the mail and it will go up. interesting huh!
Steering "without" the tiller
Ed, Your point about steering the boat via sail trim alone (tiller straight) is a good one. I haven't taken a certified sailing course yet (like Bluewater or Offshore-- but hope to someday) but I think I've read that this is one thing that they cover in those courses. I presume that this skill can be useful in an emergency- such as the loss of rudder. Franklin, thanks for your reply. I have actually tried sailing jib only in my 170 and it always gets overwhelmed to the lee (leehelm) with jib alone, and sometimes with reefed main and full jib. I've seen many keelboaters sailing jib only, but the 170 just doesn't feel balanced for it-- not in a blow anyway. Best, Mike G.
Ed, Your point about steering the boat via sail trim alone (tiller straight) is a good one. I haven't taken a certified sailing course yet (like Bluewater or Offshore-- but hope to someday) but I think I've read that this is one thing that they cover in those courses. I presume that this skill can be useful in an emergency- such as the loss of rudder. Franklin, thanks for your reply. I have actually tried sailing jib only in my 170 and it always gets overwhelmed to the lee (leehelm) with jib alone, and sometimes with reefed main and full jib. I've seen many keelboaters sailing jib only, but the 170 just doesn't feel balanced for it-- not in a blow anyway. Best, Mike G.
weather helm
Mike, Glad to hear you got the motor running without a major overhaul, and that you foamed your mast. Under jib alone, with a full main in any kind of a breeze, the weather helm on my 170 is severe bordering on uncontrollable. Without the jib, the center of effort moves way behind the center of lateral resistance. Like a weathervane or a flag on a pole, the 170 wants to point nose-to-wind. Next season, my crew and I are going to become adept at reefing and disciplined enough to rig the reef lines every time we launch. Your 60-degree water is a hot tub compared to Ontario at 35 degrees, so you can expect more envy than sympathy from the those of us in frozen-pond territory.
Here's to fair weather and happy, upright sailing in '06.
Mike, Glad to hear you got the motor running without a major overhaul, and that you foamed your mast. Under jib alone, with a full main in any kind of a breeze, the weather helm on my 170 is severe bordering on uncontrollable. Without the jib, the center of effort moves way behind the center of lateral resistance. Like a weathervane or a flag on a pole, the 170 wants to point nose-to-wind. Next season, my crew and I are going to become adept at reefing and disciplined enough to rig the reef lines every time we launch. Your 60-degree water is a hot tub compared to Ontario at 35 degrees, so you can expect more envy than sympathy from the those of us in frozen-pond territory.
Here's to fair weather and happy, upright sailing in '06.Foaming your mast !
Hi Mike, you mentioned foam insulation and duck tape but did you use any can foam or silicon to seal the slot in the mast block other than duck tape ? Your right about the foam stopping at the shroud spreader, its the rivets that stop you from going any farther from the top. I did add more insulation foam from the bottom of the mast. the screws and rivets are trickey to get the foam by but can be done. 2 six footers from the bottom worked well. I also put one in the boom ! It seems like a lot of us capsize in October ! :-( I wrote the Foaming 170 Mast post and foam test last year, do a few practice capsizing drill when the water warms up, it realy helps and is easy to do......the boat pops right back up. Happy new year everyone
Hi Mike, you mentioned foam insulation and duck tape but did you use any can foam or silicon to seal the slot in the mast block other than duck tape ? Your right about the foam stopping at the shroud spreader, its the rivets that stop you from going any farther from the top. I did add more insulation foam from the bottom of the mast. the screws and rivets are trickey to get the foam by but can be done. 2 six footers from the bottom worked well. I also put one in the boom ! It seems like a lot of us capsize in October ! :-( I wrote the Foaming 170 Mast post and foam test last year, do a few practice capsizing drill when the water warms up, it realy helps and is easy to do......the boat pops right back up. Happy new year everyone
help with foaming
Can you comment on the foaming directions? Which type of foam did you use? etc... Have a 170 and need a spring project! Phil
Can you comment on the foaming directions? Which type of foam did you use? etc... Have a 170 and need a spring project! Phil
Phil - check foaming in archives
Glenn wrote a very detailed how-to on foaming the 170 mast - search on 170 and foaming. If you can't find it, let me know as I have that and more saved somehwere on my laptop. However, Mike G here is talking about a slightly different approach, on which I would also like more detail. I plan to foam the 146 mast this spring...right now she's sitting in 10" of snow.
Glenn wrote a very detailed how-to on foaming the 170 mast - search on 170 and foaming. If you can't find it, let me know as I have that and more saved somehwere on my laptop. However, Mike G here is talking about a slightly different approach, on which I would also like more detail. I plan to foam the 146 mast this spring...right now she's sitting in 10" of snow.
Weather helm
Don't forget, that if you run with main alone, to pull up some on your centerboard. This will move the center of resistance aft, and cause the 170 to yawl to the lee, both will reduce weather helm. Danny
Don't forget, that if you run with main alone, to pull up some on your centerboard. This will move the center of resistance aft, and cause the 170 to yawl to the lee, both will reduce weather helm. Danny
Where to find Foaming post
Hi Phil, I have the foam article, and foam test results along with some drawings to help you foam your mast, easy to do and cost less than $20.00 to do. If you send me an e-mail at glenn.basore@medtronic.com I will send it to you, or you can go to Sailing Obsession.com under Day sailor Forum "Tack" to get it your self, you might enjoy reading the other post as well. Glenn
Hi Phil, I have the foam article, and foam test results along with some drawings to help you foam your mast, easy to do and cost less than $20.00 to do. If you send me an e-mail at glenn.basore@medtronic.com I will send it to you, or you can go to Sailing Obsession.com under Day sailor Forum "Tack" to get it your self, you might enjoy reading the other post as well. Glenn
Kind of foam I used
Glenn, et al- Sorry for the somewhat delayed response. I haven't visited the page in awhile. I went to the Home Depot and just bought some HVAC (air conditioning unit) copper pipe insulator foam (the black or grey-colored cylinder shaped foam that comes in long, tube-like sections-- 6 feet in length each)--- the stuff that you use as a 'jacket' around outdoor piping (usually copper) that runs from your home's AC air handler out the side of the house to the AC compressor. This foam is super lightweight and if you buy it in the right diameter (I think I used approx. a 2 inch wide variety--- the store has several), you can stuff it down into the masthead opening until it hits the spreader tang rivets- and being almost the entire width of the inside of the mast, there's very little air/ high floatation. Glenn, you also asked about my sealing-off of the masthead slot. I used duct tape as a base/barrier and then sealed all the way around the masthead block/duct tape edge with silicone sealant. I need to capsize test the boat this spring, but I'm pretty sure that this 'head seal shouldn't leak. And I'd imagine, even if it did, that the foam in the top 13 feet of the mast will keep it afloat. Someone also sent a reminder on raising the centerboard slightly in weatherhelm, to shift the c-e aft. Thanks! I'd forgotten that tweek while out there. Went sailing a couple weeks ago and hoping to get the wife out there this go 'round. Maybe this Saturday. Mike
Glenn, et al- Sorry for the somewhat delayed response. I haven't visited the page in awhile. I went to the Home Depot and just bought some HVAC (air conditioning unit) copper pipe insulator foam (the black or grey-colored cylinder shaped foam that comes in long, tube-like sections-- 6 feet in length each)--- the stuff that you use as a 'jacket' around outdoor piping (usually copper) that runs from your home's AC air handler out the side of the house to the AC compressor. This foam is super lightweight and if you buy it in the right diameter (I think I used approx. a 2 inch wide variety--- the store has several), you can stuff it down into the masthead opening until it hits the spreader tang rivets- and being almost the entire width of the inside of the mast, there's very little air/ high floatation. Glenn, you also asked about my sealing-off of the masthead slot. I used duct tape as a base/barrier and then sealed all the way around the masthead block/duct tape edge with silicone sealant. I need to capsize test the boat this spring, but I'm pretty sure that this 'head seal shouldn't leak. And I'd imagine, even if it did, that the foam in the top 13 feet of the mast will keep it afloat. Someone also sent a reminder on raising the centerboard slightly in weatherhelm, to shift the c-e aft. Thanks! I'd forgotten that tweek while out there. Went sailing a couple weeks ago and hoping to get the wife out there this go 'round. Maybe this Saturday. Mike
Pull up some centerboard
I agree with DRHartzell. Play with your centerboard, it can make a difference. I didn't see if you had reefing points. Put it on your to-do list if you don't. After sailing an H23 for years with reef points and one season of the H170 without, it got done last winter. Sent to Schurr Sails in Pensacola, they did a great job on the sails for about $70, and I ordered a reefing kit for the H170 for another $70. It was much more enjoyable this past sailing season and well worth the investment.
I agree with DRHartzell. Play with your centerboard, it can make a difference. I didn't see if you had reefing points. Put it on your to-do list if you don't. After sailing an H23 for years with reef points and one season of the H170 without, it got done last winter. Sent to Schurr Sails in Pensacola, they did a great job on the sails for about $70, and I ordered a reefing kit for the H170 for another $70. It was much more enjoyable this past sailing season and well worth the investment.
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