Weather helm and mast rake...

[stevenwp2]

So, I have tons of weather helm in most conditions but gets pretty crazy in a breeze and yes, the backstay gets played pretty hard. I haven't actually measured the mast rake but it appears at least straight up and down with the backstay just snug.

I'm new to the Capri 22 and to a wing-keel. I've only sailed mine, so not much point of reference... Direction and suggestions welcome. ;-)

Steve S.

 

[sinnettc]

I had issues with that, on my tall rig, one summer. It turned out I didn't have it tuned right and had too much rake. If you've got too much rake (more than a couple inches IIRC) then you've probably got too much. Check the length on your forestay against the North Sails tuning guide I've attached.

BTW, for other readers, the numbers in the attached do NOT apply to the tall rig. Set it according to the attached guide and you're going to have a noodle for a mast! My uppers are generally around 32 to start and the lowers are at 27.

 

[Kunzig]

Hi Steve,
I only sail with a 110 jib - no other choice.
That being said, the keel is in a way a fulcrum. Kinda like a see saw. The fulcrum point I think is about a foot aft of the mast or there abouts. If the main is over loaded you will get weather helm - sometimes if the jib's form/shape is "bettered" it can bring a better balance to the battle of power fore and aft of the fulcrom. A new mailsail helps keep the lift/pull of the sail further forward also. For me I depower the main after I've done the best I can with the jib. Hope that helps some.

Rob

 

[stevenwp2]

All good and thanks for the input. Scary part is, I have a new 155 that I've not used (hopefully will create some balance), cut to the current forestay length. I measured the halyard distance at 25' 7", mast to eye. It appears the forestay is about right (North Sails says 25' 5" plus turnbuckle), so I don't think that's an issue, but I did take off a roller furling system... fingers crossed! The racing main is excellent and works great. It is big, which likely contributes to the weather helm as well. I know some change the angle of the rudder on Catalina 22's for this very reason.. hmmmmm.

With both boats in the water, standing back and looking at my mast compared to the fin keel next to it, the fin appears to have measurably more rake. I do need to break out the loos gauge and dial in the rigging as I've adjusted things on the fly too many times now.

And frankly, coming from a couple years on an incredibly neutral, quick steering SJ21, I certainly still need to adapt to the Capri which also may be a big part of the issue. Whole different ball game, that's for sure. ;-)

 

[HERSH]

Coming from a SJ-21 ---- That was my previous boat too #2441. I guy came down from Quebec Canada to purchase mine in the fall of 2011. ( I live ~~ 90 due north of NYC.) I had my SJ-21 for 25+ years.

Interesting how we both upgraded to the Capri 22.

Hershey

 

[shnool]

The wing keel loses bite quickly... so if you are overpowered, heeling too much, or generally overtrimmed, it'll cause the boat to slip sideways, and force weather helm.

raking out the mast some, and also playing the backstay will tension the luff of the main, and therefore help to depower (and flatten) the main. Downhaul/Cunningham will help as well (as draft slides back under pressure)... You were talking about a "racing main" does that include a loose foot and maximum roach? If it does, then that'll explain some weather helm as well.

The wing keel seems overly sensitive to heel angle... so you'll be changing headsails or reefing earlier than a similar equipped fin keel. Vang ON and lower the traveler in puffs, or ease the mainsheet more, to keep it on it's feet. If you are under say 20 degrees of heel, and still have a lot of weather helm, you have a definite rig tune problem.

 

[sinnettc]

Hey Shnool, yeah I've got a roachy, loose footed main. So roachy, in fact, that the outie batten tip gets stuck on the backstay in really light air. It was originally intended to go up the mast with the bolt rope in the slot but it's too darned stiff. I added grommets and slugs and I'm much happier now, because I can actually raise the sail.

 

[stevenwp2]

Cool, thanks again... Yeah, that guy from Canada has come as far as the Carolinas to buy boats. We've got 3, SJ21s all in "need (a lot of) TLC" condition about to be given new homes, probably about $2500 for the three, two on trailers. Also, I think we have a few racing rudders in various stages of completion.

Yeah, mine is a big, loose footed main as well. The batten gets hung up on the backstay. I know she does like to be sailed fairly flat which helps some. Quite sensitive to weight placement too. I have sailed this boat mostly in fairly heavy air and rarely if ever with the same crew, so I suspect much of it is me dialing things in...

I understand the mast should be essentially plumb, but not sure if the means with the boat floating in the water, square to the rub rail, or what. Suggestions?

Hopefully I'll get out this weekend, but it's supposed to be really, really cold... high of 58 degrees I think. ;-) At least for now only 5 mph of wind predicted, so it would be a good day to bundle up, try out the 155 and dial things in a bit.

Steve

 

[Kunzig]

Yes! get out and enjoy the 155 and report back, please. I want to convert my 135 to furling...

 

[Richard9547]

One of the things I do with advanced students (who show some glimmer of a clue)
is lock down the rudder and have them steer with sheets alone.

Have you ever tried that?

 

[stevenwp2]

Hi, yes, I have tried steering with the sails as it's a wise skill to have either way in the case of a rudder failure. Again, my reference point is my SJ 21 which was pretty easy. The Capri has proven far more challenging... basically, I can't yet do it effectively, but I have been quite aware and trimmed for helm rather than sail efficiency, just to see how the boat responded.

I am really about convinced I just need a ton more time in the boat, but I do think the 155 will help. BTW, the forecast changed a bit... From NOAA:

<<Saturday Sunny, with a high near 55. Northwest wind 10 to 15 mph, with gusts as high as 20 mph. >>

Oughtta be a fun set of club races! ;-)

Steve S.

 

[shnool]

Oh yeah, roachy main, now further away from the mast by a half inch or so with sail slugs, with an undersized headsail? Yep, weatherhelm makes perfect sense.

Might have to tilt the mast forward just to balance the boat back, or use that aforementioned 155.

 

[sinnettc]

I sold my 150 or 155 racing jib several years ago. Just cound't bring myself to fold it so it would fit in the v-berth. I do still have the roller furling 155 but we rarely use it as I have to swap out the forestay and it's kind of blown out. I usually run with the 135 and the Main when I can. Once the wind picks up we go to the 98% blade and start thinking about reefing early. The adjustable backstay is a life saver for sure.

I was hoping I'd get to go out in some good, strong wind and see how the second reef works, but no luck since the lake didn't fill. Guess I'll figure it out this year.

 

[Richard9547]

Hi, yes, I have tried steering with the sails as it's a wise skill to have either way in the case of a rudder failure. Again, my reference point is my SJ 21 which was pretty easy. The Capri has proven far more challenging... basically, I can't yet do it effectively, but I have been quite aware and trimmed for helm rather than sail efficiency, just to see how the boat responded.

I am really about convinced I just need a ton more time in the boat, but I do think the 155 will help. BTW, the forecast changed a bit... From NOAA:

<<Saturday Sunny, with a high near 55. Northwest wind 10 to 15 mph, with gusts as high as 20 mph. >>

Oughtta be a fun set of club races! ;-)

Steve S.

Even racing I prefer to trim for minimum rudder.
Water is almost exactly 1000 times denser than air.
The drag from a heavy rudder can easily slow the boat more that the loss of drive from tight trimmed sails.
Play with it and see what works best for you and your boat.
A hand-held GPS can really help a lot as that allows one to see the results in real-time.

 

[stevenwp2]

Sailing in very light air over the weekend we did well with the new genny. The wind started out around maybe 5 mph, dropped to 0-3, then the 6 mile race (Triange; 3 @ 2 mile legs) was cancelled as we made it to the first mark after close to 2 hours. Forecast was 5-10 but it just never filled in. We were pretty much first to the mark, ahead of a S2 6.7, 7.9, Precision 23, a few SJ 21s, another SRWK... I'm really happy with my Waters 155, so that's all good.

Anyway, got this pic of Aja. I know it's not scientific and could be a bit off, but it sure looks like my mast is plumb at best and actually appears canted forward measurably. Just strikes me as odd since I was hoping to reduce weather helm by shortening the forestay via the turnbuckle an inch or so.

Is there a recommended way to measure mast rake?

Thoughts welcomed.

 

[sinnettc]

Anyway, got this pic of Aja.

Is there a recommended way to measure mast rake?

Picture? I don't see a picture . . .

You need to run something up the mast with the main halyard. Plumb bob with a long line would work, but it doesn't have to be. basically needs a weight at the bottom and a strong enough line to pull the halyard back down when you're done. Also it helps if there's no wind/waves.

 

[stevenwp2]

Yeah, not sure what I did wrong but hopefully the pic made it this time....

As far as plumbing up the mast, I have used a plumb-bob and that's fine, I just didn't know if the Capri sits at the optimum "level" at rest in the water. I presume so, but I wasn't sure. And having said that, assuming the mast is canted forward a bit, what does that say for my weather helm issue? I need to sail it with the 155 in some decent air before I do too much, but just wondering where other folks locate their mast on the SRWK.

 

[sinnettc]

canted forward can't be good. Just sayin'

 

[shnool]

Hang a hammer off the end of your halyard... allow it to settle about the height of the gooseneck. In still water, and balanced boat, you can measure how far away from the mast the halyard is, that's rake if you have no bend (backstay off). Similarly if you measure NO backstay, and backstay full on, you'll be able to figure how much bend is adding.

By the way I think the angle of the picture is misleading, and maybe the mast isn't forward. Best way to figure it, is to put the boat in a slip and find an angle from shore abeam to take the picture. Better is sitting in a marina with lots of other boats, as MOST have a little rake, or NO rake.. you'll easily be able to line your boat up with their masts visually and you'll get a good idea what your rake is.

 

[stevenwp2]

Yeah, I mean, I just wasn't sure if sitting a rest, the boat is "level". On the SJ, you can level it on the trailer and then do the plumb-bob thing.

Either way, do SRWK Capri 22's generally have quite a bit of weather helm? Although it wouldn't help the speed, I've been reading up on some other boats converting to a semi-balanced rudder (ala S2) and for them, it's said to make a world of difference. I was thinking of doing a slightly different rudder anyway, so maybe going to semi-balanced would be an improvement.