water under the head's sole.

[Robert19700]

Hi guys,

This is my second post about the subject. The sole in the head of my 2001 Hunter 260 is now extremely soft. Before was like having bubbles. Now feels like a lot of water is underneath.

Any ideas? May I drill a hole there?

Thank you.

Robert

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

If it's soft, you need to find out why

'Cuz soft = fiberglass rot. I have a feeling that shower water water is getting trapped under the toilet base and seeping into the fiberglass via the toilet mounting bolt holes. Or, water may be getting into it from another source. Whatever the source is, you definitely need to find it, correct it and prob'ly replace the sole. If the head sole is structural, finding out what's going on and what it's gonna take to repair it may be a job best left to the dealer. Meanwhile, you might learn something by taking up the toilet to see what if anything is happening under the base.

 

[twalker H260]

You should be able to reach/inspect some of the head sole from the port access hatch under the stern berth mattress. The area is softer when the ballast tank isn't full. I believe the forward part of the head sole is just the top of the ballast tank as is the sole throughout most of the cabin. As such you want to be very careful where you drill.
There used to be photos of the construction of the 260 on the site but I can't find them at the moment. Perhaps George knows the location?

 

[BobSail]

H-260 WB Tank Top

Included is an image of the water ballast tank following initial installation at the factory.

 

[Robert19700]

Re: H-260 WB Tank Top

Bob,

Thank you for the pic. I see now the water ballast is right under the sole. No drilling!.
Should I do nothing?

Robert

 

[BobSail]

I'd get more info before drilling.

Robert, I believe there may be another floor or pan on top of the ballast tank that the head sole rests on. I think it may be part of the pre-molded cabin interior unit. Included is a picture I took this weekend looking forward from the port side bilge access under the rear berth. I couldn't see forward, so used the camera as my "eye". You can see the waste hose along the front edge of the ballast tank leading from the toilet aft to the holding tank.

If there is a gap (which I believe), I'm not sure why you would hear water squishing unless there is an awful lot of water in the boat, or it is sitting atop the ballast tank, or there is some balsa core stiffener in the sole that has become compromised. Our 2004 model head sole is composed of gelcoat (the teak floor does not extend into the head area). If yours is teak, it may be possible that water has found its way underneath.

I'm just not familiar enough with that portion of the boat to provide good advice. Hopefully Crazy Dave Condon or George Kobernus will chime in with some ideas for you. Hunter Marine may also provide some insight as to the construction method in this area. Because of the close distance between the sole and the ballast tank, I personally wouldn't be drilling any holes until I knew exactly what was occurring.

 

[Robert19700]

Bob,

Thank you so much. The pic is very relevant.
This week-end I will looking into the port side bilge and let you know.
Since I have just a porta potti, no pipes should be in the area and I believe I will be able to check it better.
Even I am thinking to run a small plastic pipe and aspirate the area should I have room. That may be also the cause of the bad smelling I found in the boat recently.

Thank you again.

Robert

 

[BobSail]

Good luck Robert. I'll be interested to know the source. Bad smelling water could potentially imply a ballast tank leak if you've had the water in there awhile. We usually fill ours (with Columbia River water) at the beginning of the season and wait until pullout to drain. It's pretty rank by then. Hopefully it's something simpler.

 

[Robert19700]

Bob,

Today I looked into the port side bilge with the help of my iphone camera.
I was able to pass a plastic pipe and aspirate with a big syringe: NEGATIVE FOR WATER.
However I think I was under the sole of the Porta Potti and I couldn't reach the soft floor of the head itself. Also I tried passing the plastic pipe sideways of the water ballast tank (from the access small step-door.): Negative for water.
Any other suggestions?
Thank you very much.

Roberto.

 

[BobSail]

Roberto, I would probably try and reach Crazy Dave Condon at this point. He's considered the father of the 260 on this site, and was very much involved in the boat as a former Hunter dealer. He's still active on this site, but I cannot find a screen name for contact. You can search the archives using his name and find an immense amount of information on the 260. I pulled up one of his more recent posts using the search, which includes the following text:

"When I was a Hunter dealer, I made it a point not to say who or where I was at out of respect for the Hunter dealer network.. Since I am no longer a Hunter dealer and would like for my old customers to know where I am at, I am in Zebulon, NC at 919-404-1550. I will be glad to answer questions on the small boats if the responses in the forum do not fully explain a repair. Please respect me on this as too many will call on minor details and I had to withdraw from the forum several years ago. Crazy Dave Condon American Marine & Sail Supply, inc. 919-404-1550"

Lacking that, I would try Hunter Marine directly. Best of luck to you in tracking this issue down. Sorry I can't be of more help.

 

[alan gt s bay longis]

Where exactly is the water or squish?

Hi, is it on the raised area immediately under the porta pot or the sole of the enclosed head where one normally stands? I don't believe any of the fiberglass sole is cored. It's construction seems minimal and it's been known to crack with jumping and dropping of tools. Water can get under the wood sole and get trapped (between the lower fiberglass support and wood parts of the sole) which can cause a "squish". Water on top of the ballast tank (and therefore under the sole) can come from lots of places. As a matter of fact because of heeling, the construction and design, water that shows up one place can have origionated from a host of areas. One person found that screws drilled for the porta pot's mounts had actually punctured the top of the ballast tank. Water on top of the ballast tank is different from water trapped between the underside of the wood sole and ontop of the fiberglass sole supporting it. The top of the ballast tank is immediately under this. You would need a lot of water on top of the ballast tank to squish. That much water would for sure show up under the sinks and settes.

Water caught between the wood sole and fiberglass pan supporting it could be rain water entering the hatches companionway, port lights or mast base,spills and other leaks. Water on top of the ballast tank can be from any leak under the sinks resulting in accumulation of water that during heeling will allow it to be higher than the top of the tank. This can include water rammed into any of the through hulls where the sink drain is not tight or through the bilge pump. Also from the vent on ballast control extension of the tank being loose or rotted or control gasket being rotted.

People have VERY CAREFULLY cut inspection plates into the fiberglass sole with success. Actually the main use for that is not so much for inspection (which is easier) but for drying off the top of the tank when water has leaked on it. From experience, drying off the tank top can take months.

good luck. alan

 

[steve stark]

Re: Where exactly is the water or squish?

We have an older 1994 26 and the sole in the main cabin just outside the head door, as well as the head sole, both have always felt the way you describe. I wonder if it is possible that you might just have never noticed the 'softness' and now are sensitized to it. In our case, the sole feels 'bouncy' (like it is on a waterbed) but is just springy rather than sitting on water. It concerned me a lot when first considering the purchase, but several reference checks with other owners, including Crazy Dave, convinced me that the 'softness' is just a design artifact.

Anyway, we have never had an issue with the sole and, if you find no volume of water under it, its probably not worth worrying about. If you do find water, the most likely sources are: 1. an unsealed keel bracket bolt in the CB trunk, 2. rainwater leaking by the teak stops on the sliiding hatch and drifting into the bilge through the tabbing under the galley, or 3. water back siphoning through the bilge pump hose when burying the starboard windows on a tack. Ballast tank leaks are extremely rare.

We did experience water under the cabin sole teak/holly veneer (as BobSail outlined) from the sliding hatch leak but both issues were easily resolved. I suppose its also possible that if you have water under the teak, and you are getting the 'normal' bounce in the head, you might be flexing the main cabin sole and hear the 'squish' from under the teak.

 

[Robert19700]

Head's sole...

The squish is on the sole of the enclosed head where one normally stands.
My next test will be to take my stethoscope, move the sole and listen for water.
I will let you know.
Thank you all very much!
Robert

 

[alan gt s bay longis]

Very unlikely but,

you may have better luck tapping it out if somehow enough water is on the top of the tank to make contact with the underside of the floor. Again if there was that much water, almost for sure it would show up in other areas. I also have an early '94 26, forgot about water entering from the centerboard trunk. Remove the silicone sealant and lift the rectangular plate where the compression post enters from the table to check for water there. In my boat there is enough room between the control extension of the tank and the inside of the companionway step to see the top of the tank. Only a thin sliver of it but enough to see if it is wet with a flashlight. Good luck again. alan