Just looking for various suggestions on treating a water tank for showering purposes. I know there is bleach, and some people use cheap vodka. Anyone else have any ideas?
- Status
For odor, put in a cup of baking soda for about 50 gallons. If that doesn't work, put in some more.
Patrick...
I'm treating a 55 gallon fresh water tank. In the past, I've used bleach. Just wondered what other alternatives there are. Again, our primary purpose for fresh water is showering and doing the dishes (etc.)...
I'm treating a 55 gallon fresh water tank. In the past, I've used bleach. Just wondered what other alternatives there are. Again, our primary purpose for fresh water is showering and doing the dishes (etc.)...
Full directions available
The Head Mistress (Peggy) posted step by step directions for shocking water tanks , to assure they are clean and ready for potable water. I'm sure an archive search for "shocking tanks" or something similar will bring it up. I've got the directions printed out on my boat, which is on the other coast right now. If you can't find it, flag Peggy. Sanders
The Head Mistress (Peggy) posted step by step directions for shocking water tanks , to assure they are clean and ready for potable water. I'm sure an archive search for "shocking tanks" or something similar will bring it up. I've got the directions printed out on my boat, which is on the other coast right now. If you can't find it, flag Peggy. Sanders
What are you treating it for?
Does it smell? Is there turbidity - cloudiness or particulates? Are you worried about bacteria or algae? You did not say what kind of material it is made from. I say if it is aluminum like mine was, do not use any bleach. It reacts with the aluminum and makes a brownish white salt which detaches and plugs filters and makes the water cloudy. You can filter it but it will eventually eat your tank and plug the filters and/or wear out yout pump. I know that there is a so called "shock treatment" but I would not use it for a metal tank. I know it is a so called "standard method" but it was probably written by a bunch of incompetant or dishonest "industry" representatives who are more than glad to sell you a new tank. They include some of the stupidest pseudoscientific conclusions I have ever read and I have read a lot of that kind of stuff such as the ozone hole theory, global warming, population bomb, oil shortages, slash burn permits, etc. etc. etc. If you want to disinfect an aluminum tank, use something which is neutral or acidic and or contains oxygen like hydrogen peroxide. I am not sure how these things will react with the weldment materials. I do not know of a written method and NOBODY has responded to my repeated requests for a better method than the usual posted method. My solution has been to replace the old aluminum tank with a plastic one. I used sheet PVC and epoxy fiberglass to make a new one in my boat. Not only did I get a better tank with cleanouts and a visual gauge, I was able to get more capacity and better utilize the space in the v-berth. I gained enough room for three large 32 inch wide, 22 inch deep 6+ inch high drawers under the v-berth. I also put the water pump below this tank where it is much quieter and the filters are much more easily accessed for inspection and service.
Does it smell? Is there turbidity - cloudiness or particulates? Are you worried about bacteria or algae? You did not say what kind of material it is made from. I say if it is aluminum like mine was, do not use any bleach. It reacts with the aluminum and makes a brownish white salt which detaches and plugs filters and makes the water cloudy. You can filter it but it will eventually eat your tank and plug the filters and/or wear out yout pump. I know that there is a so called "shock treatment" but I would not use it for a metal tank. I know it is a so called "standard method" but it was probably written by a bunch of incompetant or dishonest "industry" representatives who are more than glad to sell you a new tank. They include some of the stupidest pseudoscientific conclusions I have ever read and I have read a lot of that kind of stuff such as the ozone hole theory, global warming, population bomb, oil shortages, slash burn permits, etc. etc. etc. If you want to disinfect an aluminum tank, use something which is neutral or acidic and or contains oxygen like hydrogen peroxide. I am not sure how these things will react with the weldment materials. I do not know of a written method and NOBODY has responded to my repeated requests for a better method than the usual posted method. My solution has been to replace the old aluminum tank with a plastic one. I used sheet PVC and epoxy fiberglass to make a new one in my boat. Not only did I get a better tank with cleanouts and a visual gauge, I was able to get more capacity and better utilize the space in the v-berth. I gained enough room for three large 32 inch wide, 22 inch deep 6+ inch high drawers under the v-berth. I also put the water pump below this tank where it is much quieter and the filters are much more easily accessed for inspection and service.
Tim,
Yes, Peggy (Queen of Boat Water Systems)has a great annual water tank treatment. Bleach then white vinegar. Even though you are using it to shower, It would not hurt to treat it as though you are going to drink it. You may have to. r.w.landau
Yes, Peggy (Queen of Boat Water Systems)has a great annual water tank treatment. Bleach then white vinegar. Even though you are using it to shower, It would not hurt to treat it as though you are going to drink it. You may have to. r.w.landau
Sheer nonsense, Patrick!
"I know that there is a so called "shock treatment" but I would not use it for a metal tank. I know it is a so called "standard method" but it was probably written by a bunch of incompetant or dishonest "industry" representatives who are more than glad to sell you a new tank." What you have been determined to ignore: Bleach left in a metal tank can indeed damage it...but the recommended recommissioning "treatment" (directions to follow) specify flushing it out within 24 hours--too short a time to do any damage. Chlorine did indeed destroy your tank...but it's the cumulative effective of carrying chlorinated water that does the damage--'cuz even small amounts in long-term contact with metal are damaging--but you're way out of line in disputing the ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers--hardly a group of "industry" representatives who are more than glad to sell you a new tank.") code recommendations for sanitizing any potable water tank. Fresh water system problems--foul odor or taste--are typically caused by allowing water to stagnate in the system. Although most people think only in terms of the tank, the plumbing is actually the source of most foul water, because the molds, mildew, fungi and bacteria which cause it thrive in damp dark places, not under water. There are all kinds of products sold that claim to keep onboard water fresh, but all that’s really necessary is an annual or in especially warm climates, semi-annual recommissioning of the entire system—tank and plumbing. The following recommendations conform to section 10.8 in the A-1 192 code covering electrical, plumbing, and heating of recreational vehicles. The solution is approved and recommended by competent health officials. It may be used in a new system a used one that has not been used for a period of time, or one that may have been contaminated. Before beginning, turn off hot water heater at the breaker; do not turn it on again until the entire recommissioning is complete. 1. Prepare a chlorine solution using one gallon of water and 1/2 cup (4 oz) Clorox or Purex household bleach (5% sodium Hypochlorite solution ). With tank empty, pour chlorine solution into tank. Use one gallon of solution for each 5 gallons of tank capacity. 2. Complete filling of tank with fresh water. Open each faucet and drain cock until air has been released and the entire system is filled. Do not turn off the pump; it must remain on to keep the system pressurized and the solution in the lines 3. Allow to stand for at least three hours, but no longer than 24 hours. 4 Drain through every faucet on the boat (and if you haven't done this in a while, it's a good idea to remove any diffusion screens from the faucets, because what's likely to come out will clog them). Fill the tank again with fresh water only, drain again through every faucet on the boat. 5. To remove excess chlorine taste or odor which might remain, prepare a solution of one quart white vinegar to five gallons water and allow this solution to agitate in tank for several days by vehicle motion. 6. Drain tank again through every faucet, and flush the lines again by fill the tank 1/4-1/2 full and again flushing with potable water.
"I know that there is a so called "shock treatment" but I would not use it for a metal tank. I know it is a so called "standard method" but it was probably written by a bunch of incompetant or dishonest "industry" representatives who are more than glad to sell you a new tank." What you have been determined to ignore: Bleach left in a metal tank can indeed damage it...but the recommended recommissioning "treatment" (directions to follow) specify flushing it out within 24 hours--too short a time to do any damage. Chlorine did indeed destroy your tank...but it's the cumulative effective of carrying chlorinated water that does the damage--'cuz even small amounts in long-term contact with metal are damaging--but you're way out of line in disputing the ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers--hardly a group of "industry" representatives who are more than glad to sell you a new tank.") code recommendations for sanitizing any potable water tank. Fresh water system problems--foul odor or taste--are typically caused by allowing water to stagnate in the system. Although most people think only in terms of the tank, the plumbing is actually the source of most foul water, because the molds, mildew, fungi and bacteria which cause it thrive in damp dark places, not under water. There are all kinds of products sold that claim to keep onboard water fresh, but all that’s really necessary is an annual or in especially warm climates, semi-annual recommissioning of the entire system—tank and plumbing. The following recommendations conform to section 10.8 in the A-1 192 code covering electrical, plumbing, and heating of recreational vehicles. The solution is approved and recommended by competent health officials. It may be used in a new system a used one that has not been used for a period of time, or one that may have been contaminated. Before beginning, turn off hot water heater at the breaker; do not turn it on again until the entire recommissioning is complete. 1. Prepare a chlorine solution using one gallon of water and 1/2 cup (4 oz) Clorox or Purex household bleach (5% sodium Hypochlorite solution ). With tank empty, pour chlorine solution into tank. Use one gallon of solution for each 5 gallons of tank capacity. 2. Complete filling of tank with fresh water. Open each faucet and drain cock until air has been released and the entire system is filled. Do not turn off the pump; it must remain on to keep the system pressurized and the solution in the lines 3. Allow to stand for at least three hours, but no longer than 24 hours. 4 Drain through every faucet on the boat (and if you haven't done this in a while, it's a good idea to remove any diffusion screens from the faucets, because what's likely to come out will clog them). Fill the tank again with fresh water only, drain again through every faucet on the boat. 5. To remove excess chlorine taste or odor which might remain, prepare a solution of one quart white vinegar to five gallons water and allow this solution to agitate in tank for several days by vehicle motion. 6. Drain tank again through every faucet, and flush the lines again by fill the tank 1/4-1/2 full and again flushing with potable water.
Peggy, How many times
Have you posted that? Thanks for your knowledge and commitment to this forum. sincerely, r.w.landau
Have you posted that? Thanks for your knowledge and commitment to this forum. sincerely, r.w.landau
Well, Peggy I guess we just disagree
But thats the only way it seems that one gets any other response than the usual one. I do appreciate your willingness to help with systems problems but I think you are simply wrong to support this idea. You have every right to say what you think but so do I. I think that if you measure the ph of the suggested chlorox solution, you will find it is very highly alkaline from the caustic added to stabilize the chlorox. Normal city water is either neutral or acidic in ph even though it contains some small amounts of chlorine. Try it with a coke can. Add the chlorox in the porportions recommended and see what it looks like the next day. Put it outside though in case it leaks. Compare that with the can next to it which you fill with city water. You can even boil the city water can and it will not react like the chlorox one will. That is at least a semi-scientific test which one can replicate. It is my understanding that it is the alkalinity which affects the corrosion of the aluminum and not the chlorine itself. No doubt the chlorine reacts as well but only after the oxide coating of the aluminum is destroyed by the caustic. What seems preposterous to me is the assertion that if you only leave the solution in place for a short time that it won't do any damage. Couple that with the added statement that somehow it will magically not react after some 24 hours have passed is ludicrous. The corrosive nature of a solution will not magically cease at a particular time unless something chemically changes or the materials have completely reacted and reached a point of equilibrium. I have asked before and will repeat my question here again. What other methods are available for the folks with aluminum tanks? It seems to me that there are a multitude of other biocides which are not corrosive or reactive to aluminum tanks. I just do not know what they are. I suspect that hydrogen peroxide would be a good choice but do not know for certain. I suppose there must be some acids which will not react with aluminum which would work as well. As to challenging the learned ASME or ANSI officials, I remember a very learned Phd who demonstrated the safety of Agent Orange by drinking it himself. I was told in 1973 by another Phd in one of my courses in college that the world would be completely out of oil by 1990 and that there would be food riots and major famine and rampant plagues as a result. I do not think Vodka is going to do it for your water quality problem though, Tim so you may just as well have a bloody Mary and shower ashore. I would save up for a plastic tank - they are not too expensive. Materials for mine cost less than $50 and I do not have to worry about chlorox any more.
But thats the only way it seems that one gets any other response than the usual one. I do appreciate your willingness to help with systems problems but I think you are simply wrong to support this idea. You have every right to say what you think but so do I. I think that if you measure the ph of the suggested chlorox solution, you will find it is very highly alkaline from the caustic added to stabilize the chlorox. Normal city water is either neutral or acidic in ph even though it contains some small amounts of chlorine. Try it with a coke can. Add the chlorox in the porportions recommended and see what it looks like the next day. Put it outside though in case it leaks. Compare that with the can next to it which you fill with city water. You can even boil the city water can and it will not react like the chlorox one will. That is at least a semi-scientific test which one can replicate. It is my understanding that it is the alkalinity which affects the corrosion of the aluminum and not the chlorine itself. No doubt the chlorine reacts as well but only after the oxide coating of the aluminum is destroyed by the caustic. What seems preposterous to me is the assertion that if you only leave the solution in place for a short time that it won't do any damage. Couple that with the added statement that somehow it will magically not react after some 24 hours have passed is ludicrous. The corrosive nature of a solution will not magically cease at a particular time unless something chemically changes or the materials have completely reacted and reached a point of equilibrium. I have asked before and will repeat my question here again. What other methods are available for the folks with aluminum tanks? It seems to me that there are a multitude of other biocides which are not corrosive or reactive to aluminum tanks. I just do not know what they are. I suspect that hydrogen peroxide would be a good choice but do not know for certain. I suppose there must be some acids which will not react with aluminum which would work as well. As to challenging the learned ASME or ANSI officials, I remember a very learned Phd who demonstrated the safety of Agent Orange by drinking it himself. I was told in 1973 by another Phd in one of my courses in college that the world would be completely out of oil by 1990 and that there would be food riots and major famine and rampant plagues as a result. I do not think Vodka is going to do it for your water quality problem though, Tim so you may just as well have a bloody Mary and shower ashore. I would save up for a plastic tank - they are not too expensive. Materials for mine cost less than $50 and I do not have to worry about chlorox any more.
Peroxide Sanitization
5 cups of H202 (3%) per 100 gallons. ... or 1/2 cup of (27%) ... but such concentration is VERY dangerous to use as its a STRONG oxidizer .... use the low strength stuff in the brown bottles!!!!! REMOVE any 'carbon' filter element before sanitizing. Those "RV specs." are for NEW and uncontaminated systems .... the same specs. are causing lots of illness on the airlines, etc.
5 cups of H202 (3%) per 100 gallons. ... or 1/2 cup of (27%) ... but such concentration is VERY dangerous to use as its a STRONG oxidizer .... use the low strength stuff in the brown bottles!!!!! REMOVE any 'carbon' filter element before sanitizing. Those "RV specs." are for NEW and uncontaminated systems .... the same specs. are causing lots of illness on the airlines, etc.
I've said just the opposite, Patrick
"...Couple that with the added statement that somehow it will magically not react after some 24 hours have passed is ludicrous." Directions for recommissioning with bleach clearly say it should remain in the tank no longer than 24 hours because any PURIFYING qualities in bleach are gone within 24 hours, but not its corrosive qualities. And I have always recommended against adding any bleach--even just a capful--to each fill for the same reason...after 24 hours it ceases to do any good, only harm. And Rich...the real problem with airline water isn't the method used to recommission the systems...it's that they haven't been doing anything to the systems except topping of the tanks...no recommissioning at all.
"...Couple that with the added statement that somehow it will magically not react after some 24 hours have passed is ludicrous." Directions for recommissioning with bleach clearly say it should remain in the tank no longer than 24 hours because any PURIFYING qualities in bleach are gone within 24 hours, but not its corrosive qualities. And I have always recommended against adding any bleach--even just a capful--to each fill for the same reason...after 24 hours it ceases to do any good, only harm. And Rich...the real problem with airline water isn't the method used to recommission the systems...it's that they haven't been doing anything to the systems except topping of the tanks...no recommissioning at all.
So I guess the chlorine dissipates
and the alkalinity remains. Is that what you mean, Peggy? What do you mean by your comment about aircraft water systems not being recommissioned? Do they just add peroxide at each filling? Rich, what do you mean by: "Those "RV specs." are for NEW and uncontaminated systems .... the same specs. are causing lots of illness on the airlines, etc. " Is there a standard method used by airlines? Got a link to it? If the source of problems in water systems is mostly the plumbing, why not just disinfect the plumbing and leave the tank alone or treat it in a way that does not damage it?
and the alkalinity remains. Is that what you mean, Peggy? What do you mean by your comment about aircraft water systems not being recommissioned? Do they just add peroxide at each filling? Rich, what do you mean by: "Those "RV specs." are for NEW and uncontaminated systems .... the same specs. are causing lots of illness on the airlines, etc. " Is there a standard method used by airlines? Got a link to it? If the source of problems in water systems is mostly the plumbing, why not just disinfect the plumbing and leave the tank alone or treat it in a way that does not damage it?
The voice of experience
Like everyone else I've read the recommendations for "shocking" water and the arguments about whether water in these systems can be used for drinking, etc. Here are my findings from experience: bleach--the plastic water fill caps on my boat were faded and cracked when I bought the boat last year in a way that other fill caps were not, clearly the result of fumes from bleach. That was a good warning that bleach could destroy expensive components such as the plastic tanks themselves if not used very conservatively. filth--that's the only way to describe the stuff inside the 18-year-old lines and tanks on this boat. The clear hoses in the system were coated with something black and the tanks had some kind of gelatinous green stuff on the bottom, with dried green stuff everywhere else. The tanks did not have inspection/cleanout ports built in, apparently assuming they would never need cleaning if treated properly. Wrong! They have cleanout ports now. And notice how religious use of bleach didn't stop the growths... potability--forget it. No matter what anyone says in this long string, only drink the water for the first month after you've given your tank a total cleaning. After that, assume the worst and carry bottled water on board. If you don't believe me, go poke around under your settees and have a look at YOUR water lines. What will the black stuff do to your gut? I now know that water tanks must be removed for cleaning and the lines replaced completely every third or fourth year. Why not every year? Because the water coming from these tanks IS NOT FOR DRINKING, so you can get away with not doing them every single year...but they do need to be done...
Like everyone else I've read the recommendations for "shocking" water and the arguments about whether water in these systems can be used for drinking, etc. Here are my findings from experience: bleach--the plastic water fill caps on my boat were faded and cracked when I bought the boat last year in a way that other fill caps were not, clearly the result of fumes from bleach. That was a good warning that bleach could destroy expensive components such as the plastic tanks themselves if not used very conservatively. filth--that's the only way to describe the stuff inside the 18-year-old lines and tanks on this boat. The clear hoses in the system were coated with something black and the tanks had some kind of gelatinous green stuff on the bottom, with dried green stuff everywhere else. The tanks did not have inspection/cleanout ports built in, apparently assuming they would never need cleaning if treated properly. Wrong! They have cleanout ports now. And notice how religious use of bleach didn't stop the growths... potability--forget it. No matter what anyone says in this long string, only drink the water for the first month after you've given your tank a total cleaning. After that, assume the worst and carry bottled water on board. If you don't believe me, go poke around under your settees and have a look at YOUR water lines. What will the black stuff do to your gut? I now know that water tanks must be removed for cleaning and the lines replaced completely every third or fourth year. Why not every year? Because the water coming from these tanks IS NOT FOR DRINKING, so you can get away with not doing them every single year...but they do need to be done...
Start with good water!!!!
If you have good water to start with it should be OK for showering. With plastic tanks a little chlorox won't hurt. The good news is that even though there are bacteria in your tanks as long as they haven't been contaminated with feces etc they probably aren't going to make you sick. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) has no bacteriocidal properties. It is a buffer that will keep the pH about neutral. I don't know what dilute vinegar(acetic acid) will do. Bacteria can eat the stuff once it is diluted. Clean water maybe even water that has been ran through a water softener is best. Bacteria algea etc need phosphorus,potassium,calcium and a few other minerals to grow. If you take away the phosphorus they can't reproduce.... All cells have DNA and to make DNA you must have phosphorus. Unfortunately for us algea can get enough carbon and nitogen from the air to grow. But even algea can't grow unless they have phosphorus!!!! Believe it or not one of the main goals of wastewater treatment plants is to remove phosphorus. Almost nothing can grow in reverse osmosis water as it is almost pure water. The harder(more minerals) the water the faster stuff will grow. Some cities treat their drinking water to lower the hardness this is good. Some cities just pump well water and add chlorine this is bad as well water is usually hard water and often has a lot of nitrates and phosphates(ie fertilizer). Tom
If you have good water to start with it should be OK for showering. With plastic tanks a little chlorox won't hurt. The good news is that even though there are bacteria in your tanks as long as they haven't been contaminated with feces etc they probably aren't going to make you sick. Baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) has no bacteriocidal properties. It is a buffer that will keep the pH about neutral. I don't know what dilute vinegar(acetic acid) will do. Bacteria can eat the stuff once it is diluted. Clean water maybe even water that has been ran through a water softener is best. Bacteria algea etc need phosphorus,potassium,calcium and a few other minerals to grow. If you take away the phosphorus they can't reproduce.... All cells have DNA and to make DNA you must have phosphorus. Unfortunately for us algea can get enough carbon and nitogen from the air to grow. But even algea can't grow unless they have phosphorus!!!! Believe it or not one of the main goals of wastewater treatment plants is to remove phosphorus. Almost nothing can grow in reverse osmosis water as it is almost pure water. The harder(more minerals) the water the faster stuff will grow. Some cities treat their drinking water to lower the hardness this is good. Some cities just pump well water and add chlorine this is bad as well water is usually hard water and often has a lot of nitrates and phosphates(ie fertilizer). Tom
The annual chlorine disinfection debate
Seems like this comes around every year or more often. The traditional wisdom is a chlorine solution but that recommendation is based on older technology and knowledge and old things die hard. If you are concerned about unwanted byproducts of chlorine treatment, residual taste or smell of chlorine soultions, possible toxicity of chlorinated hydrocarbons, deliterious effects on plastic and aluminum tanks or any other concers, you should use peroxide. Typical hydrogen peroxide sold in drug stores in brown bottles is a 3% solution and is effectively useless in this application. It's far too weak a solution. Add approx. 6 oz. of 27% H2O2 solution per 100 gallons. Peroxide use will prolong the efficacy of this treatment when compared with chlorine solutions requiring less frequent maintenance with no neg effects and it's cheaper too! Another alternative is bromine solutions but their effect on plastic (hoses and fittings) is questionable. Don Illusion H40.5
Seems like this comes around every year or more often. The traditional wisdom is a chlorine solution but that recommendation is based on older technology and knowledge and old things die hard. If you are concerned about unwanted byproducts of chlorine treatment, residual taste or smell of chlorine soultions, possible toxicity of chlorinated hydrocarbons, deliterious effects on plastic and aluminum tanks or any other concers, you should use peroxide. Typical hydrogen peroxide sold in drug stores in brown bottles is a 3% solution and is effectively useless in this application. It's far too weak a solution. Add approx. 6 oz. of 27% H2O2 solution per 100 gallons. Peroxide use will prolong the efficacy of this treatment when compared with chlorine solutions requiring less frequent maintenance with no neg effects and it's cheaper too! Another alternative is bromine solutions but their effect on plastic (hoses and fittings) is questionable. Don Illusion H40.5
The technlogy may be old, but...
It's simple, readily available anywhere, directions are a no-brainer to follow...and it works.
It's simple, readily available anywhere, directions are a no-brainer to follow...and it works.
Standard chlorine shock works!
I have used this method since I learned of it from Peggy on this site five years ago. We have observed no damage or leaks to our 28 year old aluminum water tank, plastic piping, or plastic and metal sink fittings. In the Great Lakes environment, this treatment keep the water potable for a season. Despite the annual excited discussion of this topic, I have heard no "new" or even old findings against this method. Congratulations to Don for the first actual description of an alternative technique. I'll continue with chlorine until I hear why I shouldn't and a proven alternative is offered. David Lady Lillie
I have used this method since I learned of it from Peggy on this site five years ago. We have observed no damage or leaks to our 28 year old aluminum water tank, plastic piping, or plastic and metal sink fittings. In the Great Lakes environment, this treatment keep the water potable for a season. Despite the annual excited discussion of this topic, I have heard no "new" or even old findings against this method. Congratulations to Don for the first actual description of an alternative technique. I'll continue with chlorine until I hear why I shouldn't and a proven alternative is offered. David Lady Lillie
First of all, thanks to all...
for such a spirited discussion! Secondly, just purchased a brand-new Catalina 310, so I am treating a "virgin" tank. I have no intention of drinking the water-only using it for showering. Just want to make sure I get it right from the start. I do appreciate everyone's input.
for such a spirited discussion! Secondly, just purchased a brand-new Catalina 310, so I am treating a "virgin" tank. I have no intention of drinking the water-only using it for showering. Just want to make sure I get it right from the start. I do appreciate everyone's input.
- Status