I am a newbie with a 1984 Hunter 27 - with a water tank under the V-berth. Right now all we are doing is daysailing so do not have much use for the water. My questions are: 1. Should we fill the tank - if so how will this affect the boat's handling? 2. Since this water is never used for drinking should we be adding anything to it to keep it clean? Thanks Roy
Water Tank question
- Thread starter Roy Udwin
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Fill it up!
My first boat was an '82 h27. I never noticed any handling issues with a full tank. I added a very small amount of bleach to the tank for treatment and it seemed to work fine. Great boat btw!
My first boat was an '82 h27. I never noticed any handling issues with a full tank. I added a very small amount of bleach to the tank for treatment and it seemed to work fine. Great boat btw!
dry tank
Roy. If you are not going to use the tank, just leave it dry. If water is not used it can spoil. It's one less thing to winterize. In the heat of mid-summer, I have seen water go in as little as two weeks. As far as the extra weight, figure rougly 5 pounds/gallon. Some like the weight, as it stops the bow from blowing around a little, others want the lighter bow to ride a little higher under sail. I'm sure opinions will differ on this.
Roy. If you are not going to use the tank, just leave it dry. If water is not used it can spoil. It's one less thing to winterize. In the heat of mid-summer, I have seen water go in as little as two weeks. As far as the extra weight, figure rougly 5 pounds/gallon. Some like the weight, as it stops the bow from blowing around a little, others want the lighter bow to ride a little higher under sail. I'm sure opinions will differ on this.
)How much chlorine?
What is a good amount of chlorine to use to keep water sweet and somewhat drinkable? I don't usually drink from the tank but would like to have the option if need be. Thanks, Liam.
What is a good amount of chlorine to use to keep water sweet and somewhat drinkable? I don't usually drink from the tank but would like to have the option if need be. Thanks, Liam.
Don't add any to each fill...
There are all kinds of products sold that claim to keep onboard water fresh, but all that’s really necessary is an annual or in especially warm climates, semi-annual recommissioning of the entire system—tank and plumbing. The following recommendations conform to section 10.8 in the A-1 192 code covering electrical, plumbing, and heating of recreational vehicles. The solution is approved and recommended by competent health officials. It may be used in a new system a used one that has not been used for a period of time, or one that may have been contaminated. Before beginning, turn off hot water heater at the breaker; do not turn it on again until the entire recommissioning is complete. Icemakers should be left running to allow cleaning out of the water feed line; however the first two buckets of ice—the bucket generated during recommissioning and the first bucketful afterward--should be discarded. 1. Prepare a chlorine solution using one gallon of water and 1/2 cup (4 oz) Clorox or Purex household bleach (5% sodium Hypochlorite solution ). With tank empty, pour chlorine solution into tank. Use one gallon of solution for each 5 gallons of tank capacity. (Or, do it the easy way: 1 pint bleach to 25 gal water.) 2. Complete filling of tank with fresh water. Open each faucet and drain cock until air has been released and the entire system is filled. Do not turn off the pump; it must remain on to keep the system pressurized and the solution in the lines 3. Allow to stand for at least three hours, but no longer than 24 hours. 4 Drain through every faucet on the boat (and if you haven't done this in a while, it's a good idea to remove any diffusion screens from the faucets, because what's likely to come out will clog them). Fill the tank again with fresh water only, drain again through every faucet on the boat. 5. To remove excess chlorine taste or odor which might remain, prepare a solution of one quart white vinegar to five gallons water and allow this solution to agitate in tank for several days by vehicle motion. 6. Drain tank again through every faucet, and flush the lines again by fill the tank 1/4-1/2 full and again flushing with potable water. If you do this once a year as part of spring recommissioning, your onboard water should taste and smell as any out of a tap on land. And read this recent thread on the subject: http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/pviewall.tpl?fno=122&uid=73191640303&sku=2005174223823.37
There are all kinds of products sold that claim to keep onboard water fresh, but all that’s really necessary is an annual or in especially warm climates, semi-annual recommissioning of the entire system—tank and plumbing. The following recommendations conform to section 10.8 in the A-1 192 code covering electrical, plumbing, and heating of recreational vehicles. The solution is approved and recommended by competent health officials. It may be used in a new system a used one that has not been used for a period of time, or one that may have been contaminated. Before beginning, turn off hot water heater at the breaker; do not turn it on again until the entire recommissioning is complete. Icemakers should be left running to allow cleaning out of the water feed line; however the first two buckets of ice—the bucket generated during recommissioning and the first bucketful afterward--should be discarded. 1. Prepare a chlorine solution using one gallon of water and 1/2 cup (4 oz) Clorox or Purex household bleach (5% sodium Hypochlorite solution ). With tank empty, pour chlorine solution into tank. Use one gallon of solution for each 5 gallons of tank capacity. (Or, do it the easy way: 1 pint bleach to 25 gal water.) 2. Complete filling of tank with fresh water. Open each faucet and drain cock until air has been released and the entire system is filled. Do not turn off the pump; it must remain on to keep the system pressurized and the solution in the lines 3. Allow to stand for at least three hours, but no longer than 24 hours. 4 Drain through every faucet on the boat (and if you haven't done this in a while, it's a good idea to remove any diffusion screens from the faucets, because what's likely to come out will clog them). Fill the tank again with fresh water only, drain again through every faucet on the boat. 5. To remove excess chlorine taste or odor which might remain, prepare a solution of one quart white vinegar to five gallons water and allow this solution to agitate in tank for several days by vehicle motion. 6. Drain tank again through every faucet, and flush the lines again by fill the tank 1/4-1/2 full and again flushing with potable water. If you do this once a year as part of spring recommissioning, your onboard water should taste and smell as any out of a tap on land. And read this recent thread on the subject: http://www.sailboatowners.com/forums/pviewall.tpl?fno=122&uid=73191640303&sku=2005174223823.37
Bleach taste does not dissipate very quickly
Remember that unlike an open container, the water tank will not dissipate the chlorine/ bleach taste very quickly. So if you are using the bleach for a maintenance dose, use it sparingly.
Remember that unlike an open container, the water tank will not dissipate the chlorine/ bleach taste very quickly. So if you are using the bleach for a maintenance dose, use it sparingly.
For the one-thousandth time
DO NOT PUT CHLORINE BLEACH IN AN ALUMINUM TANK! ASTM method is bad for your tank but good for tank manufacturers.
DO NOT PUT CHLORINE BLEACH IN AN ALUMINUM TANK! ASTM method is bad for your tank but good for tank manufacturers.
Although Patrick is right...
The tank in my old h27 was as plastic insert, so adding a few ounces of bleach will not affect it. Again, if you are NOT planning on drinking the water, bleach is fine. If you are planning on drinking, then the issue gets more complicated, so I would follow Peggy's recomendations. The Cherubini h27's did not have water heaters (at least mine didn't), so winterization is fairly easy.
The tank in my old h27 was as plastic insert, so adding a few ounces of bleach will not affect it. Again, if you are NOT planning on drinking the water, bleach is fine. If you are planning on drinking, then the issue gets more complicated, so I would follow Peggy's recomendations. The Cherubini h27's did not have water heaters (at least mine didn't), so winterization is fairly easy.
Roy, take note
Peggie is the dean of this website on water issues, having written book -- literally.
Peggie is the dean of this website on water issues, having written book -- literally.
What Patrick has overlooked for the thousandth
time is that, while he's right that bleach is damaging to aluminum tanks (and to the rubber parts in the water pump)--which is why it is a VERY bad idea to add a little to each fill--all the bleach used to recommission the system is completely flushed out after just a few hours...and it's ONLY once a year. It's not in the tank (at least it shouldn't be if the directions are followed) long enough or often enough to do any damage. Nor are ASTM standards "outdated," any more than ABYC, UL, NFPA or any other standards are allowed to become. Convincing Patrick of that ain't gonna happen, though. But that's ok...it's his boat (and your boats are your own)...nobody's forcing him or you to do anything you don't want to do.
time is that, while he's right that bleach is damaging to aluminum tanks (and to the rubber parts in the water pump)--which is why it is a VERY bad idea to add a little to each fill--all the bleach used to recommission the system is completely flushed out after just a few hours...and it's ONLY once a year. It's not in the tank (at least it shouldn't be if the directions are followed) long enough or often enough to do any damage. Nor are ASTM standards "outdated," any more than ABYC, UL, NFPA or any other standards are allowed to become. Convincing Patrick of that ain't gonna happen, though. But that's ok...it's his boat (and your boats are your own)...nobody's forcing him or you to do anything you don't want to do.
question for Peggie
Hi again Peggie. Is the six step method you listed also good for removing the taste of plumbing antifreeze ? I always blow my sytem dry, but have been considering using pink antifreeze. Some say that the taste never leaves.
Hi again Peggie. Is the six step method you listed also good for removing the taste of plumbing antifreeze ? I always blow my sytem dry, but have been considering using pink antifreeze. Some say that the taste never leaves.
It's the alkaline pH - stupid - not the bleach
that corrodes the aluminum. It is a simple scientific fact. As the caustic reacts with the aluminum, the hypochlorite becomes unstable and the chlorine is released from the solution. The chlorine is what kills the bugs. Ask a chemist. Peroxide will not do this (corrosion) and a small amount of hypochlorite will not do this either. That is because of the pH. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure this out. A writer might have a harder time though...
that corrodes the aluminum. It is a simple scientific fact. As the caustic reacts with the aluminum, the hypochlorite becomes unstable and the chlorine is released from the solution. The chlorine is what kills the bugs. Ask a chemist. Peroxide will not do this (corrosion) and a small amount of hypochlorite will not do this either. That is because of the pH. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure this out. A writer might have a harder time though...
BS
So ..... what does one do with municipal water that has a dosage loading of 0.5 to 1ppm chlorine in it already as a 'typical' specified background? Most surface supplied municipal water in the USA is so treated. ASTM methods are a 'testing' standard not a bio standard. So .... why hasnt the NSF standards met whats going on in federal specs./guidelines for all municpal (surface) water systems: such a filtation to 1 micrometer absolute to affect a ~100% titre reduction of ALL chlorine resistant organisms. Is it that the RV folks doent know how to read? Well .................. ??
So ..... what does one do with municipal water that has a dosage loading of 0.5 to 1ppm chlorine in it already as a 'typical' specified background? Most surface supplied municipal water in the USA is so treated. ASTM methods are a 'testing' standard not a bio standard. So .... why hasnt the NSF standards met whats going on in federal specs./guidelines for all municpal (surface) water systems: such a filtation to 1 micrometer absolute to affect a ~100% titre reduction of ALL chlorine resistant organisms. Is it that the RV folks doent know how to read? Well .................. ??
As explained to me
The chlorine either is a gas or becomes a gas so when you pump it into your tank, you loose it.
The chlorine either is a gas or becomes a gas so when you pump it into your tank, you loose it.
Not true Franklin
When used in our hot tub, it's the usage that makes it go away. Well, it doesn't go away, it's just not 'free' anymore. But we mostly use ozone now days. That IS a gas. But maybe we can get Patricks' attention again to explain the differences in 'chlorine'. In 'gas' form it's a military weapon. (illegal of course)
When used in our hot tub, it's the usage that makes it go away. Well, it doesn't go away, it's just not 'free' anymore. But we mostly use ozone now days. That IS a gas. But maybe we can get Patricks' attention again to explain the differences in 'chlorine'. In 'gas' form it's a military weapon. (illegal of course)
Chemically speaking,
specific terminology is very important. Chlorine is a gas at "normal" temperature and pressure. It is bad to breathe (it will kill you in high enough concetrations) and is very reactive and corrosive. In aqueous (water) solution, it rapidly reacts with other materials like metals or organic compounds to form salts and organochlorides. Its reactivity is what makes it a good biocide. It readily and rapidly kills bacteria and many other kinds of living creatures. It will probably react with something before it escapes as a gas. Bleach is a term which very generally means anything which removes color. A bleach is usually a strong oxidizer chemically speaking. Two common things commonly called bleach are hydrogen peroxide and sodium hypochlorite. There are many other things considered to fall in the bleach category. Chlorox is a dilute (5%) solution of hypochlorite. It is unstable unless it is kept at an alkaline pH. If you mix it with an acid, you will very rapidly get a release of chlorine gas. Do not do that!! If you slowly neutralize the pH, you will get chlorine gas at a slower rate which will probably react with something in solution before getting out of the solution. The problem with using it (chlorox) in aluminum tanks is manifold. First, the caustic additive which keeps the solution alkaline is corrosive to metals like aluminum and that attacks the mechanical integrity of the tank. Second, it forms salt deposits on the inside of the tank and that is a nice home for bacteria. Third, the salts thus formed will sometimes become dislodged and suspended when agitated and they will clog your filters and pipes. Fourth, the salts may have some toxicity to the person drinking the water containing these metallic salts. My tank had a thick coating which looked like barnacles. It was one half of an inch thick in places. These deposits were mostly around the weldments and I suspect that is because the weldments have other metals which are more reactive than aluminum and these areas react first. I do not know what other metals are likely there but I for one do not want to drink their salts. Just in case you are wondering, I never used this so called treatment. It was probably done by the previous owners but I do not know. I doubt that the small amount of chlorine present in city water would do much if any of this kind of damage.
specific terminology is very important. Chlorine is a gas at "normal" temperature and pressure. It is bad to breathe (it will kill you in high enough concetrations) and is very reactive and corrosive. In aqueous (water) solution, it rapidly reacts with other materials like metals or organic compounds to form salts and organochlorides. Its reactivity is what makes it a good biocide. It readily and rapidly kills bacteria and many other kinds of living creatures. It will probably react with something before it escapes as a gas. Bleach is a term which very generally means anything which removes color. A bleach is usually a strong oxidizer chemically speaking. Two common things commonly called bleach are hydrogen peroxide and sodium hypochlorite. There are many other things considered to fall in the bleach category. Chlorox is a dilute (5%) solution of hypochlorite. It is unstable unless it is kept at an alkaline pH. If you mix it with an acid, you will very rapidly get a release of chlorine gas. Do not do that!! If you slowly neutralize the pH, you will get chlorine gas at a slower rate which will probably react with something in solution before getting out of the solution. The problem with using it (chlorox) in aluminum tanks is manifold. First, the caustic additive which keeps the solution alkaline is corrosive to metals like aluminum and that attacks the mechanical integrity of the tank. Second, it forms salt deposits on the inside of the tank and that is a nice home for bacteria. Third, the salts thus formed will sometimes become dislodged and suspended when agitated and they will clog your filters and pipes. Fourth, the salts may have some toxicity to the person drinking the water containing these metallic salts. My tank had a thick coating which looked like barnacles. It was one half of an inch thick in places. These deposits were mostly around the weldments and I suspect that is because the weldments have other metals which are more reactive than aluminum and these areas react first. I do not know what other metals are likely there but I for one do not want to drink their salts. Just in case you are wondering, I never used this so called treatment. It was probably done by the previous owners but I do not know. I doubt that the small amount of chlorine present in city water would do much if any of this kind of damage.
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