Without going into the boring reasons why, I may need to install a flushing water source ABOVE my Jabsco manual toilet, temporarily. Experimentation has shown this to work fine, except that after pumping, gravity takes over, and all the water in the source tank will siphon out. Is there any way, OTHER THAN installing a manual shut-off valve, to prevent this? I'm thinking about an in-line valve that would have a spring-loaded shut-off, where the spring is strong enough to prevent siphoning, but still allow water flow when sucked by the toilet pump. I'm not even sure such a valve exists for this type application. Thoughts / suggestions? Thanks, Jack
Water source above toilet?
- Thread starter Cactus Jack
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On way valve
I am not sure if I understand you correctly, but I thin k you are looking for a one way/surge back up valve . West Marine catalog - Check Valve Model 1225804 page 548. there are also others that will do the same , just ask in the marine store.
I am not sure if I understand you correctly, but I thin k you are looking for a one way/surge back up valve . West Marine catalog - Check Valve Model 1225804 page 548. there are also others that will do the same , just ask in the marine store.
Hmm...
I don't think that's what I need. That type valve is meant to allow water to flow in one direction only. What I need would allow water to flow ONLY if there is enough "pull" on it. How else can I describe it... How about this: imagine a valve that is held closed by a light spring. If you suck lightly on the outlet end of the valve, you get no air flow. If you suck harder, you would overcome the spring pressure, and get air flow. Apply this idea to a water valve. Jack
I don't think that's what I need. That type valve is meant to allow water to flow in one direction only. What I need would allow water to flow ONLY if there is enough "pull" on it. How else can I describe it... How about this: imagine a valve that is held closed by a light spring. If you suck lightly on the outlet end of the valve, you get no air flow. If you suck harder, you would overcome the spring pressure, and get air flow. Apply this idea to a water valve. Jack
I think you'd better give me the boring reasons
Why you think you need to do this and what you're attempting to accomplish by doing it that can't be accomplished by keeping the water source for the head at or below the level of the bowl.
Why you think you need to do this and what you're attempting to accomplish by doing it that can't be accomplished by keeping the water source for the head at or below the level of the bowl.
OK, here ya go...
My boat is a 1980 Catalina 25. The seacock on the to-hull fitting for the toilet inlet is broken in the CLOSED postion; it cannot be opened. While I'm confident that I could replace the seacock with the boat in the water (I have no access to a trailer), due to the age of the boat I'm pretty nervous about the possibility of breaking loose the to-hull pipe in the process. That would present a major repair problem for me. I'm contemplating how to plumb water to the toilet on a temporary basis until such time as the boat is due to be pulled for it's next bottom job, likely not for another year or so. I really don't want to spend several hundred bucks to have her pulled just to replace the seacock and to-hull (if that becomes necessary). One option I've considered is plumbing the inlet to the sink to-hull drain. Problem here is there is no good way to route the inlet pipe from that drain to the toilet without drilling new holes in a bulkhead or two, which I'd rather avoid. Another option is to use a simple water tank or can to supply the water. I don't have a suitable location at or below the level of the toilet to fit such a tank, though. But on the Catalina, there is a small stowage shelf above the toilet on which a water tank would fit, thus the attempt to plumb the toilet water source from above the toilet. I'm wide open here to other ideas. I'd prefer something sorta permanent; that is, not just placing a water tank on the cabin sole or something like that. Thanks for everyone's input! Jack
My boat is a 1980 Catalina 25. The seacock on the to-hull fitting for the toilet inlet is broken in the CLOSED postion; it cannot be opened. While I'm confident that I could replace the seacock with the boat in the water (I have no access to a trailer), due to the age of the boat I'm pretty nervous about the possibility of breaking loose the to-hull pipe in the process. That would present a major repair problem for me. I'm contemplating how to plumb water to the toilet on a temporary basis until such time as the boat is due to be pulled for it's next bottom job, likely not for another year or so. I really don't want to spend several hundred bucks to have her pulled just to replace the seacock and to-hull (if that becomes necessary). One option I've considered is plumbing the inlet to the sink to-hull drain. Problem here is there is no good way to route the inlet pipe from that drain to the toilet without drilling new holes in a bulkhead or two, which I'd rather avoid. Another option is to use a simple water tank or can to supply the water. I don't have a suitable location at or below the level of the toilet to fit such a tank, though. But on the Catalina, there is a small stowage shelf above the toilet on which a water tank would fit, thus the attempt to plumb the toilet water source from above the toilet. I'm wide open here to other ideas. I'd prefer something sorta permanent; that is, not just placing a water tank on the cabin sole or something like that. Thanks for everyone's input! Jack
Hokay...now I get it...
Put a loop in the line that'll be above the top of the tank at any angle of heel. The toilet pump should be able to pull water out of the tank, up and over the loop...but when you stop pumping and switch to the dry mode, anywater in the line between the tank discharge and the top of the loop SHOULD just run back into the tank. Only what's left in the line between the top of the loop and the toilet should continue downhill into the bowl. Btw...don't even THINK of connecting this tank to your fresh water system to fill it. However, you'd be smarter to have your boat pulled to replace the thru-hull and seacock...'cuz 'frozen can lead to leaking...and then what will you do? If were only till the end of the season, it would be one thing...you're talking a year, maybe two. The expression "penny wise, pound foolish" definitely applies here. It doesn't have come all the way out and be set in the yard to do that...you can do what's called a "short haul"...the boat is lifted by the travel lift, which moves it over land so it can be worked on while it stays in the lift. The price usually includes a specified length of time--anywhere from 30 min. to an hour (longer can be negotiated) to work on it, and costs a LOT less than a "haul and set." I've used this method to do a couple of things on my own boats. So talk to the local yards about what will cost you. Gotta be a LOT cheaper than raising your boat if she sinks in the slip.
Put a loop in the line that'll be above the top of the tank at any angle of heel. The toilet pump should be able to pull water out of the tank, up and over the loop...but when you stop pumping and switch to the dry mode, anywater in the line between the tank discharge and the top of the loop SHOULD just run back into the tank. Only what's left in the line between the top of the loop and the toilet should continue downhill into the bowl. Btw...don't even THINK of connecting this tank to your fresh water system to fill it. However, you'd be smarter to have your boat pulled to replace the thru-hull and seacock...'cuz 'frozen can lead to leaking...and then what will you do? If were only till the end of the season, it would be one thing...you're talking a year, maybe two. The expression "penny wise, pound foolish" definitely applies here. It doesn't have come all the way out and be set in the yard to do that...you can do what's called a "short haul"...the boat is lifted by the travel lift, which moves it over land so it can be worked on while it stays in the lift. The price usually includes a specified length of time--anywhere from 30 min. to an hour (longer can be negotiated) to work on it, and costs a LOT less than a "haul and set." I've used this method to do a couple of things on my own boats. So talk to the local yards about what will cost you. Gotta be a LOT cheaper than raising your boat if she sinks in the slip.
Tried that
Peggy - I tried the loop above the tank; siphoning was strong enough to continue to pull water from the tank. While I agree that a proper repair would be best, I'm really not any more concerned about the frozen valve leaking than I would be if it were perfectly operational; it's the handle shaft that's broken. The idea of a "short haul" is good, and I may end up doing that. However, the yards around here are getting scarce, with many having been sold for new waterfront houses / condos. The nearest yard with a lift is about 20 miles away. Jack
Peggy - I tried the loop above the tank; siphoning was strong enough to continue to pull water from the tank. While I agree that a proper repair would be best, I'm really not any more concerned about the frozen valve leaking than I would be if it were perfectly operational; it's the handle shaft that's broken. The idea of a "short haul" is good, and I may end up doing that. However, the yards around here are getting scarce, with many having been sold for new waterfront houses / condos. The nearest yard with a lift is about 20 miles away. Jack
Rats...you need a vented loop, but...
Unless you can put your finger over the hole (forget putting an air vavle in it), a vented loop will prevent your toilet from priming. Plan B: Can you stuff a cheap 5 gal bladder under the head sink? A bladder wouldn't have to be vented, and you could tee the fill line for it into the sink drain and use the sink drain to fill it...run the head intake line to the bladder. Plastimo bladders are cheap...prob'ly wouldn't cost you much more, if any, than a rigid tank on the shelf, plus whatever it's gonna take to keep the siphon started by the toilet from draining it. Nearest yard with a lift 20 miles away...sounds a great excuse to take a couple of days off to go sailing...a day to get there, a day there, a day to sail back.
Or, as many boats as have been lost to hurricanes, you can prob'ly find someone who has an empty trailer (or just isn't using it 'cuz his boat's in the water). You have nothing to lose by sticking a note up on the bulletin boards in marinas and boat stores that you need one just for a day to replace a thru-hull. Just be sure you include that your boat is a 25' SAILBOAT, not a ski boat. Plan C (D?): what about parking it on a sandbar that's out of the water--even just enough to keep you from sinking--at low tide...you can float off when the tide comes in again... Where there's a will... Just a thought...
Unless you can put your finger over the hole (forget putting an air vavle in it), a vented loop will prevent your toilet from priming. Plan B: Can you stuff a cheap 5 gal bladder under the head sink? A bladder wouldn't have to be vented, and you could tee the fill line for it into the sink drain and use the sink drain to fill it...run the head intake line to the bladder. Plastimo bladders are cheap...prob'ly wouldn't cost you much more, if any, than a rigid tank on the shelf, plus whatever it's gonna take to keep the siphon started by the toilet from draining it. Nearest yard with a lift 20 miles away...sounds a great excuse to take a couple of days off to go sailing...a day to get there, a day there, a day to sail back.
Or, as many boats as have been lost to hurricanes, you can prob'ly find someone who has an empty trailer (or just isn't using it 'cuz his boat's in the water). You have nothing to lose by sticking a note up on the bulletin boards in marinas and boat stores that you need one just for a day to replace a thru-hull. Just be sure you include that your boat is a 25' SAILBOAT, not a ski boat. Plan C (D?): what about parking it on a sandbar that's out of the water--even just enough to keep you from sinking--at low tide...you can float off when the tide comes in again... Where there's a will... Just a thought...Plans...
Plan B: I don't have a head sink, but I'll see if I have another out of the way place to put one of these bladders. Plan C (B.1?): Yeah, I like the way you think! Last plan: IF the to-hull pipe were to be knocked loose and I had to replace it (with a thru-hull), how difficult would that be without access to power tools? I believe that I'd need to cut / grind off the cone of fiberglass that anchors the existing pipe to the hull, and smooth out the hull surface where it was. I was looking around my garage a little while ago, just looking at junk and trying to get some new ideas when I came across an old 2.5gal plastic "jerry-can" style water container that we used to use when camping. I'm going to see if this is small enough to fit in the dinette storage locker, where the holding tank and thru-hulls are. If I'm lucky enough that it fits, I think I can use that for my source. Holds enough water for 4 - 5 flushes I'm sure, and would be easy to take out and refill. Thanks again, Jack PS - It just occured to me; if I were to put the vented loop in, it would be right next to (and above, of course) the toilet. Should be easy to put a finger over the vent, and pump with the other hand! I priced the 3/4" vented loop at West Marine; holy cow! 29 bucks for that simple plastic thing! (I know, I know, as ideas dry up and desparation sets in, it may well be worth it!)
Plan B: I don't have a head sink, but I'll see if I have another out of the way place to put one of these bladders. Plan C (B.1?): Yeah, I like the way you think! Last plan: IF the to-hull pipe were to be knocked loose and I had to replace it (with a thru-hull), how difficult would that be without access to power tools? I believe that I'd need to cut / grind off the cone of fiberglass that anchors the existing pipe to the hull, and smooth out the hull surface where it was. I was looking around my garage a little while ago, just looking at junk and trying to get some new ideas when I came across an old 2.5gal plastic "jerry-can" style water container that we used to use when camping. I'm going to see if this is small enough to fit in the dinette storage locker, where the holding tank and thru-hulls are. If I'm lucky enough that it fits, I think I can use that for my source. Holds enough water for 4 - 5 flushes I'm sure, and would be easy to take out and refill. Thanks again, Jack PS - It just occured to me; if I were to put the vented loop in, it would be right next to (and above, of course) the toilet. Should be easy to put a finger over the vent, and pump with the other hand! I priced the 3/4" vented loop at West Marine; holy cow! 29 bucks for that simple plastic thing! (I know, I know, as ideas dry up and desparation sets in, it may well be worth it!)
Vented loops aren't cheap...but--
the good news is, you should have one in the head discharge (between the pump and the bowl) anyway--to keep SEA water from flooding your bowl due to the siphon started by the pump. That's even more important, 'cuz a tankful of water can't sink your boat, but sea water can. So you'll get to use it after you repair your seacock. Btw, there is a Plan E(? I don't know how many we're up to now! <g>)...the same thing that many owners whose seacocks DO work are doing because they just don't want to have to deal with sea water odor: they keep the intake seacock closed and use the shower head or a cup to supply flush water to the bowl. That MIGHT be the simplest solution...use your jerry cans to increase your fresh water supply.
the good news is, you should have one in the head discharge (between the pump and the bowl) anyway--to keep SEA water from flooding your bowl due to the siphon started by the pump. That's even more important, 'cuz a tankful of water can't sink your boat, but sea water can. So you'll get to use it after you repair your seacock. Btw, there is a Plan E(? I don't know how many we're up to now! <g>)...the same thing that many owners whose seacocks DO work are doing because they just don't want to have to deal with sea water odor: they keep the intake seacock closed and use the shower head or a cup to supply flush water to the bowl. That MIGHT be the simplest solution...use your jerry cans to increase your fresh water supply.
watrer source for head
Peggy: We made the mistake of leaving the head intake sea cock closed for two months and routinely flushing a Jabsco manual with fresh water from the shower, dumped into the toilet bowl. Never again! Last Sunday we opened the intake seacock and flushed with that stagnent sea water, the smell was so bad it made your eyes water and your nose bleed!!!! Believe anyone wanting to use fresh for flushing should use sea water routinely until they get back in port and then flush out with fresh followed by vinegar to layup for the week of disuse.
Peggy: We made the mistake of leaving the head intake sea cock closed for two months and routinely flushing a Jabsco manual with fresh water from the shower, dumped into the toilet bowl. Never again! Last Sunday we opened the intake seacock and flushed with that stagnent sea water, the smell was so bad it made your eyes water and your nose bleed!!!! Believe anyone wanting to use fresh for flushing should use sea water routinely until they get back in port and then flush out with fresh followed by vinegar to layup for the week of disuse.
Apparently you didn't flush all the sea water out
of the system when you decided to keep the seacock closed and use the shower head...you just closed the seacock and left the sea water in the intake line. If you've been using sea water, and decide to keep the seacock closed and use the shower head instead, you need to disconnect the head intake line from the thru-hull...stick it in a bucket of clean fresh water and white vinegar and pump the whole bucketful through the toilet to rinse all the sea water out of the system. I think you just discovered what happens if you don't. I'm not a big of keeping the intake seacock closed...'cuz an unused thru-hull and seacock becomes one that's "out of sight, out of mind"...never checked to see how the bedding is holding up...seacock never "exercised" to keep it from seizing. In the long run, that can cause more problems than it solves.
of the system when you decided to keep the seacock closed and use the shower head...you just closed the seacock and left the sea water in the intake line. If you've been using sea water, and decide to keep the seacock closed and use the shower head instead, you need to disconnect the head intake line from the thru-hull...stick it in a bucket of clean fresh water and white vinegar and pump the whole bucketful through the toilet to rinse all the sea water out of the system. I think you just discovered what happens if you don't. I'm not a big of keeping the intake seacock closed...'cuz an unused thru-hull and seacock becomes one that's "out of sight, out of mind"...never checked to see how the bedding is holding up...seacock never "exercised" to keep it from seizing. In the long run, that can cause more problems than it solves.
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