Water Pump Blues

[kloudie1]

Working on a friend's Catalina 34.We rebuilt water pump .. he bought the parts. Torreson sold him the Globe Marine blue run-dry model 815 for the Oberdorfer on his Universal M 25 XP.. I noted that the pump case has some wear in it and that the blue impeller is slightly smaller in diameter and slightly less wide than the old black one that came out. The blue vanes on the side away from the eccentric are touching so lightly that they aren't bent backwards. Pump is now intermittant. We can get it to pump by removing the discharge hose and gunning the engine until it begins to pump then putting the hose back on. It will then pump until it is shut down for a few hours.. Yesterday we motored a couple of hours after priming, with no problems. then the hose off thing has to be done to get it to pump again. I believe that the impeller is too small to seal as it should.. We did check to be sure the vanes were not turning on the hub.. Anyone have similar experience or observations?? Going to get a black impeller now to replace the blue..
EDIT: I read some entries concerning the blue impellers and I know that the boat has the larger heat exchanger (3"). Flow once primed seems ok and the thermostat is controlling the temperature at about 170 F .. I did not expect to be able to stop flow with my thumb over the discharge , but was able to. Pressure seemed to be around 5 psi, but that is just a guess. I would have thought more pressure.. ??

 

[Stu Jackson]

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3001.0.html
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5590.0.html
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5298.0.html

I've been using the black Universal impellers for 13 + years with no issues. I, too, have an M25 with a larger 3 inch HX.

Your friend is welcome to join us on our C34 Message Board.

 

[kloudie1]

Thanks for the note, Stu.. I'll passs along the invite to him.. We are seeing the cracked muffler fitting stuff as reported also.. Temp gauge is inaccurate and intermittent.. No coolant catch tank .. alternator misaligned on a not-so-nice looking bracket.. his PO didn't do a lot of maintenance on the power system.. but we are gaining.. Again, thanks for the note, Stu.

 

[Stu Jackson]

You're welcome. Glad to help. I also suggest two other things: read the "Critical Upgrades" sticky topic on the Main Message Board, and also click on the "C34 Tech wiki" at the top of any message board page. Many of the issues you just mentioned are quite well covered. All the best, Stu

 

[kloudie1]

have read thru already.. Noted that the panel on this boat has a voltmeter.. Was a bit concerned after reading Maine's note and seeing the pictures.
Great info. You guys have pushed together a better set of data on the Catalinas than the Hunter group has done.. The links provided are excellent for reference.

 

[kloudie1]

Update: Changed the blue impeller for an OEM black one (its vanes long enough to bend backwards opposite the eccentric, unlike the blue one) .. lubed and primed pump and it pumped fine. Sailed for an hour and when re-starting, would not pump again.. Primed and pumped a few minutes then shut down and left her for an hour .. started up and pumped fine.. Dunno ..

 

[Stu Jackson]

Air's getting ins somewhere. Check the hose clamps, the faceplate for scoring and the O ring on the strainer.

 

[kloudie1]

New hoses on the pump seem to have solved the problem.. old hoses were cracked and swollen.. Thanks again for heads up. Took out muffler (out through the aft cabin access) last night .. inlet fitting was rusted off almost flush with the top cover. The fitting was steel, maybe 410 stainless?? which has completely corroded to flaky rust crystals. This case sounds like it is made of metal ?? seems to be covered with gel coat ..

 

[Stu Jackson]

I never really thought to ask what it's made of, 'cuz the outside is fiberglass/gelcoat, thought it was a homemade Catalina product. The weakness, as you've noted, are the inlet and outlet ports, hence our suggestion to use hump hose between the exhaust riser and the muffler. You could get a new one from Catalina since the old one is out, or try a Vetus replacement with a 1 5/8" in and out. The Vetus ones I've found online don't seem to have a drain, though you could drill and tap one in. Sorry, don't have a link, but Google Vetus boat mufflers.

Maybe a PO tried to reinforce the port?

 

[kloudie1]

C-34 Waterlift

Here is what we found..Inlet pretty well gone. PO had attempted an RTV repair.. Owner has opted for the new one from Catalina Direct. I looked at Vetus and Centek (Vernalift) and didn''t see anything that wouldn't require a good bit of work to install; do-able, but not less costly enough to justify the work to modify the mounting.. Old one came out with plywood base plate still attached. (staples holding plate to blocks had rusted) Would have been much more difficult to get it out the rear access had that ply plate been in place over the glassed in blocks..

 

[Stu Jackson]

Geez, thanks for sharing, I hope my inlet port isn't that far gone. Is the material all fiberglass?

 

[kloudie1]

Hey, Stu.. Don't know the material yet but we are going to dissect it in the near future. I will post pix and a note of what we find during the autopsy. The outlet tube gextends to the bottom inside and its tip is pretty corroded but the top section is almost OK. It has some compression de-lamination from the clamps being too tight .. I think what happened to this tank inlet nozzle is the stiff straight inlet hose from the engine broke the bond between the tank and the inlet. Seawater collected in the crack and corroded the steel inlet pipe. Steel swells up a lot when it corrodes so it continued to break the bond and more corrosion started .. The owner has the new Trident one- hump hose and the special clamps so when we get the new muffler, everything should be OK.. The old tank appears to be a stamp formed metal (maybe copper?) retangular box into which the nozzles have been set .. I don't know if they are soldered or brazed or what.. The outside is covered with gel-coat, and the bottom closure and flange appears to be fiberglass .. I am curious as to its construction.. Would like to see an engineering drawing from Catalina but I don't think they are available.

 

[kloudie1]

Oberdorfer Pump Shaft

Here is a dimension set for the Oberdorfer pump shaft from a C-34 .. If ya need a new shaft you could make one from this. Note: This is the later shaft without the drive adapter.. and .. this is the shaft I measured .. check yours carefully before using this drawing.. Not dimentioned according to convention but useful to me.

 

[Stu Jackson]

You could also go here: http://www.marinedieseldirect.com/c...ervice=200151&printoperators=200157&comment1=

And to DEPCO Pump: http://www.depcopump.com/brands.htm

And Oberdorfer: http://www.oberdorfer-pumps.com/Spec_sheets/202M Series 4 page.pdf

The M25 series uses an N202M-15 pump.

IMPORTANT: Please note that this pdf drawing shows the OLD female internal (engine side) shaft. Claude's drawing shows the newer (circa 1986) male end. The difference is that you can reinsert the male fitting into the engine very easily.

DEPCO is reported to have the best pricing.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Hey, Stu.. ..... I am curious as to its construction.. Would like to see an engineering drawing from Catalina but I don't think they are available.

Claude, I look forward to your forensics. I recall seeing a drawing a long time ago, I did a quick search on our C34 Tech wiki, but it didn't turn up. If I find one, I'll let you know.

What is the hull # of your friend's boat? Is he thinking of joining our Association? We'd sure welcome him. There's member access to additional information in over 25 years of Tech Notes in addition to the free website info that he may be interested in. Please let me know.

 

[kloudie1]

I am curious about whether the box has a baffle inside .. we'll find out before too long.. Owner has posted on the site; user name "mseamster".. Stu, you guys on the forum have provided us with a lot of great info.. Many Thanks

 

[kloudie1]

Inside Muffler

Got the box apart this morning.. The box is 3/16" fiberglass and there are no baffles inside. So it is basically a hollow box with the inlet tube sticking in about 2" and the outlet tube pointy end touching the bottom. The outlet tube is "baloney" cut off at a 60 degree angle off horizontal. The outlet tube is fiberglass; The inlet tube is/was steel, schedule 40 1 1/4" pipe (OD= 1.625, ID= 1.375). I guess I am a bit disappointed that Catalina Direct charges $350 for such a simple box. we are considering replacing the old steel tube with brass and then epoxying with (glass tape) the box back together..

 

[Stu Jackson]

Catalina 34 Muffler Forensics

Very nice forensics, Claude. Thanks so much for the dissection. Makes me remember frogs from high school!

Even though this thread has a lot of different tangents, I've taken the liberty of linking this on our C34 Main Message Board, 'cuz I think a lot of our folks would be interested in it. The pictures are fantastic. Here's the link: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,6728.0.html

Maybe this is already here, but here's the link to the Catalina Direct C34 muffler replacement: http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=2434

My son and I just finished replacing the transmission fluid and installing a new heat exchanger bracket on our M25. As we were sitting admiring our work after we cleaned up, and with a toast to his hard work dance:!!!), I said: "What's next? Well, this really nice guy on one of the boards has shown us what we need to know about our mufflers. That's next!"

He just smiled...

 

[kloudie1]

C-34 Muffler Fix

Thanks, Stu.. Attached is the drawing of the part that we were going to fabricate to fix the old inlet tube on the muffler. This could be done without cutting the box open as I have. You'd carefully cut out the old inlet nozzle Clean up the top around the hole, drill and tap 4 holes in the top of the muffler, then add the pipe and brazed -on 1/8" thick flange.. It could be bedded in epoxy, or if ya ever wanted to replace it, it could be sealed in with red (high temp) RTV. I believe that this will outlast the owners.

 

[Stu Jackson]

C34 muffler repair port

Nice idea, well presented.

Does this mean that if I cut off the inlet port at its (wobbly) base, then the old pipe can simply be pulled out?

Or is the trick to cut around the base of the pipe (port) on the top of the muffler?