Water in the cabin blues

[nodachi]

Recently came upon a Hunter 23 tucked over in a corner at a marina. Don't know how old it is and although the tires needed air, the galvanized trailer didn't look bad at all. The owner of the marina said he didn't have the title for either the boat or the trailer but had a lien on them because he didn't know where the owner was and he owed him money. (He suspected he'd committed suicide but didn't know.) He also said the boat had been sitting out there for a "couple of years".

The boat is somewhat dirty in the cockpit but overall perhaps owing to Hunter workmanship, to me, it looks pretty good. :dance: However, there's about 4 inches of water in the cabin. :neutral:

There's no smell of mildew in the cabin but I don't know how long the water has been in there and what damage if any was done. :neutral:

He originally wanted $5,000 but then when I saw him over the weekend, he said $4,000, but today his wife hinted they might want more. I looked the boat up on BUC and a boat in poor condition is depreciated 20 - 50%. It doesn't have a motor or anything extra to my knowledge.

I was willing to go for the $4,000 since it was below BUC low retail price and I was looking at it as an old boat but now that they want to play the numbers game, I think I'd be smart to have it surveyed first and if it's worth it, then negotiate from there.

Any opinions?

 

[Mike Howell]

I'd walk without a serious inspection

I owned a 23 back in the 90s. I liked it, probably one of the reasons I decided on the 23.5.

I don't think a survey is needed, just a good inspection.

The cabin settees are made of plywood IIRC. The wood is probably in poor shape after all these years in water and probably needs replacing. Since you would have the originals, you have excellent patterns, if you have the tools and skills. The plywood is available in some areas, but if the supplier isn't local, the shipping will be expensive. I loved the wood interior of the 23 cabin so if it were me, I'd try to make it new looking. You could go to the local lumberyard and use 'Birch' ply and stain or paint it. It would be a lot cheaper. The beautiful 'teak & holly' (ply) floorboard are shot if they have been submerged.

Where are the sails? Are they in the water too? If they are, sail care MIGHT be able to 'fix' them. They could be damaged by many things including rodents. I'd GUESS new sails start at $1500.

The cushions are probably shot. It was over $1000 to recover my cushions on my Precision 21 5 years ago. New cushions were over $2000. They 'dry rotted' due to water in the cabin for several years. The P21 had been sitting with water in it for 5 years when I bought it.:naughty:

Even if the trailer is in very good shape, you'll still need tires, electrical, and probably new seals and bearings.

Unless you want a project boat, I'd look elsewhere. I think $4000 should be the final figure of negociations, not the starting figure.

My H23 used a 5hp Nissan, I was very happy with it. Others say the H23 needs a larger motor. I had strong tides to fight and the 5 hp worked for me. A new outboard is going the be $1500-$2000.

Just my opinion, which is worth what you paid for it.

Mike Howell
Hunter 23.5 Belles 3

 

[dvideohd]

other boats...

It might be good idea to spend some more time looking.. In these times, there are a lot of folks looking to sell... If you have cash, then you look "pretty good" to a lot of people looking to sell some VERY NICE boats...... buying an old boat.... that you know needs serious fixing... Well.. ask my wife if it is a good idea... I think you should be of the mind that you want to work on boats - and perhaps NOT that you want to go out sailing real soon...

I don't see anything wrong with buying an old boat to fix up and sail!!! You just have to recognize that it will TAKE A WHILE>.... Probably 5x+ as long as you think - and cost 5X More than you plan... If you get **this** boat - you might also plan on doing the other things needed to get it in shape... cushions.. etc...

You will have to go through a formal legal process to register the boat I think... In Texas, they are amazingly strict about such things.. YMMV. But it COULD hang you up for a long time - to get through the process. NOT doing so... you might lose the boat to someone else - or not be able to title/register it....

There's a good bit of baggage on this one....

--jr

 

[nodachi]

:wow:

Dear Mike and Jerry,

Totally amazing. I'm so glad I wrote you and thank you both for answering.

I was for sure I'd get a routine response like "Sure, the inspection route is the way to go to not only remove all doubt but give you leverage as well in your negotiations."

But you gave added insight on how to view the boat and my objectives.

For background, I’m a greenhorn to buying a boat. I started sailing last year but the 23 wasn’t a spur of the moment choice. From what I’ve seen, it seems many people simply buy sailboats without doing the proper research. For example, typically I originally wanted a Hunter 33 :naughty: - but with time, experience, and research, I was convinced a small trailer-able keel boat would be the perfect choice.

Mike, I’m actually somewhat glad you went into discussing replacing the settees, because my main concern about the water in the cabin was the possibility of some sort of structural damage to the hull or something else I wouldn’t know about. I have tools for working around my home and have made some basic carpentry repairs on our deck, so it’s conceivable I could replace the “settees” by as you said, using the originals as the pattern. That’s how I repaired our deck. That floor could be problematic unless I suppose you pulled out the settees first and then cut the flooring to fit…hmmmm.

“Where are the sails? Are they in the water too? If they are, sail care MIGHT be able to 'fix' them. They could be damaged by many things including rodents. I'd GUESS new sails start at $1500.”

Good question. Would you believe the mainsail is neatly wrapped under its cover on the boom? And the jib is sand dry laying on a cushion in the cabin. Speaking of “cushions” the only cushions I saw were in the V-berth and along the sides of the cabin. I don’t see any replacements for those on this site though.

“Even if the trailer is in very good shape, you'll still need tires, electrical, and probably new seals and bearings.”

Hmmm, seals and bearings only cost between $60 - $80. Tires aren’t bad, but electrical I don’t know.

“A new outboard is going the be $1500-$2000.”

Now that may be a problem.

“Unless you want a project boat, I'd look elsewhere. I think $4000 should be the final figure of negociations, not the starting figure…. Just my opinion, which is worth what you paid for it.”

Yeah, well you know I’d like to be sailing but at the same time I wouldn’t mind having a “project boat” of this sort because it’s not like there are a lot of Hunter 23’s available – which may be a good thing because to me it says something about the 23. But your opinion has been extremely valuable in more ways then one. I’ve been going back over the expenses required for this boat – which I hadn’t done previously – and you’re absolutely correct: “$4000 should be the final figure of negotiations, not the starting figure.”:dance:

Jerry:

“It might be good idea to spend some more time looking.. In these times, there are a lot of folks looking to sell... If you have cash, then you look "pretty good" to a lot of people looking to sell some VERY NICE boats...... buying an old boat.... that you know needs serious fixing... Well.. ask my wife if it is a good idea... I think you should be of the mind that you want to work on boats - and perhaps NOT that you want to go out sailing real soon...”

Yeah, you're right. I will keep looking and it can’t be overly emphasized about the importance of taking your time looking (and saving your money!).

“I don't see anything wrong with buying an old boat to fix up and sail!!! You just have to recognize that it will TAKE A WHILE>.... Probably 5x+ as long as you think - and cost 5X More than you plan... If you get **this** boat - you might also plan on doing the other things needed to get it in shape... cushions.. etc... “

And you're right here too because that's what I was thinking too. Yes, there “are a lot of folks looking to sell... some VERY NICE boats”, but are there always exceptional boats out here?

I’m no authority on boats but from the reviews I’ve read, the 23 seems to have been a pretty good model and wouldn’t be bad as a “first boat”. Both you and Mike were positive in your reviews too. Now if there were more 23's available, I’d definitely go for them - but I’ve only seen 3 23’s on this site for sale and one of them was just snatched up. I don't want to spend my time working on a boat but if I had to, I'd rather be working on a good boat I'd eventually sail but wasn't likely to come across under normal circumstances than to buy a mediorce boat that was immediately available to sail. My logic being maybe I'd stumbled upon a thorough-bred that needed some work.

As far as the title search is concerned, I’ve checked with the authorities and if the marina owner wants to sell it to me, that’s his problem. But I’m in no hurry and the sailing season is over for me now anyway.

Thank you.

 

[VT Fitz]

Walk Away

I don't think I'd consider anything over $1500 from what you describe. That boat will take a lot of time & money to restore.

Best advice I've gotten on shopping for a boat: Buy the best boat you can for the money you have. Don't buy a beater thinking you'll save money because if you add up the time & expense of repair, you would have been better off buying a better boat to start... Plus you will have been on the water instead of on the hard!

There are literally thousands of boats like the one you describe. Don't let
"buyer's fever" goad you into jumping on this one. Between the economy & the end of the boating season, it's a fantastic buyers market right now. Do more shopping.

 

[VT Fitz]

Also, bargain, bargain, bargain

Whether it be this boat or another, don't be embarrassed to make a ridiculously low offer. I mean like 20-25% of offering price. Again, it's a buyer's market. There are some folks freaking out about the economy who will sell at any price. The supply of older trailerables is virtually infinite & the pool of buyers very small. You should be able to find a nice boat for $4000 that is ready to sail away.

My 2¢.

 

[Rum Runner]

RE: Water in Cabin Blues

I recently bought a 23 in worse shape, but for much less. I found the water in the cabin came from the Plexiglass hatch leaking. Worse yet, raccoons had made a nest in the v-berth and all the cushions were shredded. I guess it's somewhat of a mixed blessing in that she holds water very well. That should vouch for the integrity of the hull! lol. All the horizontal wood in the cabin was rotten and will have to be replaced. I guess what I'm trying to say is that as long as she's good on the outside, she's sailable. The question you have to ask yourself is whether the 4K is acceptable for a project boat. You can still put in the water and sail it and work on the cabin this winter.

 

[Mike Howell]

I loved my H23. It was everything I wanted in a boat…..as long as it was at the marina. Once it went on the trailer, it became a lawn ornament It was too much of a hassle to go sailing. Raising the mast is impossible alone and not easy with help. The wing keel makes it difficult to launch at most ramps.

One day, while out sailing I realized something. I sailed my sweet H23 in the exact same locations as I did my previous boat the Victoria 18. I could easily launch the Victoria 18 from the local ramp EVERY time I went sailing. The BIGGEST factor in selling the boat was the ‘slip fee’. I didn’t have one with the V18. I did with the H23. The H23 was a nicer, larger, faster boat but I was still sailing the same water.

10 years ago, I sold the H23 and bought a Precision 21. I learned what trailer sailing was all about. That boat went to the Fl Keys, Pensacola FL, Chesapeake Bay…you get the idea. There was less room than the H23, but the launchability was there. I could launch it anywhere. A few years ago, my wife wanted ‘more room’ we looked at the P23, compact 23, and the Hunter23. All were out of the question because I like trailersailing. 3 days of vacation and a weekend and I can go nearly anywhere. The H23.5 is the perfect boat for us right now. It sits by the house when not being used and costs nothing….well taxes and insurance.

If trailersailing is what you want to do, look at a boat designed for trailersailing. There are quite a few H23.5s out there.

Good Luck,

Mike

 

[Jim Kolstoe]

Another thought

I don't know if $4k is a reasonable price in the condition that the boat is in, but I agree with the notion that you start your bidding very low, and factor in your expected materials and labor costs (what is the fair market value of your time and effort?). In the long run, you may be better off continuing to look for a boat that does not need as much work unless you really enjoy project work.
About the settee - although I am not an engineer, I would not be surprised to hear that they contribute to the structural strength of the hull, which would make it problematic whether you can safely rig, tune and sail it without the settee in good shape. FYI, I think they're glassed onto the hull.
I was a little taken aback by Mike Howell's comments on trailering. I figure around an hour from trailer to sail and an hour back with 2 people. I do keep my boat in a marina because its only a few minutes from drive into the marina to on the water. But I do not regard the hour as excessive for trips to other waters.
Frankly, I really like the h23, having bought mine new in 1986. But . . . I would not buy one if I had any question whether the "seller" was able to convey good title. Be very careful about that, as you do not want your costs to include legal action to quiet title after putting in time and money to buy and fix it. As a final note, Hunter sold new h23s for $12.5k completely equipped, which included the Nissan 5ph outboard, sails, lines, lifejackets, etc. Under the circumstances, the $4k seems too much. Good Luck.
Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo

 

[mmsailor]

I recently sold our hunter 23 for a little more than the 4000.00 price your talking about . Our boat was in great shape , had a newer out board , sail covers etc . I had owned the boat for over 14 years and it was a great package .The boat your describing for me would be in the 1500 range as someone else mentioned . I liked our 23 best when it was in the water . It was not a boat that I ever enjoyed launching or retreiving . I know people who do trailer 23s so it is just a personal thing . I think you should keep looking . Winter is fast approaching and there will be some bargains if you dont get in a hurry . Good luck, Mike

 

[nodachi]

Re: Walk Away

Hello everybody,

First of all, thank you for your input. I've been away and hadn't seen the additional replies to my post but they somewhat reaffirm the direction my thinking about the 23 was taking.

I'm just a working man but a couple of years ago I read Larry Brown's "Frugal Yachting", and that book imparted to me the belief that sailing is affordable and reasonable if carefully thought out. So I only want a small keel boat that I can keep in my yard and trailer and launch relatively easily. The specs of the 23 indicated to me that it would probably be a very exciting boat but the posts indicate stepping the mast and launching it seem to be problematic.

As far as the 23 I found, what happened is I came home and looked in my BUC books and studied their appraisal forms and the bottom line is based on the "general condition" of the boat, the required repair expenses exceeded the value of the boat.
At this discovery I called and offered $1500 to take everything off their hands - but never heard back, so I let it go. In light of the majority of sentiments you've expressed here, I believe that worked out for the best. Thank you.

I think the economy and the end of the sailing season does somewhat swing things into the buyer's favor and you're correct about the seductiveness of "buyer's fever".

The Catalina-22 is quite similar to the 23, without the above associated problems, so I'm now considering going in that direction.

Incidentally, I was at the Annapolis Sailboat Show Saturday and although I've never owned a boat yet, it seems as if Hunter has pretty much stopped putting together nicely laid out small sailboats like the old 23 and 23.5. This dealer I met from New Jersey who handles them, shook his head in agreement and told me Hunter is constantly changing up every few years trying new ideas. I think they could certainly take a clue for Precision or Schock as far as the small sailboat market share is concerned. Like Kevin says, "Just my 2 cents".

 

[nodachi]

Re: Water in Cabin Blues

I recently bought a 23 in worse shape, but for much less. I found the water in the cabin came from the Plexiglass hatch leaking. Worse yet, raccoons had made a nest in the v-berth and all the cushions were shredded. I guess it's somewhat of a mixed blessing in that she holds water very well. That should vouch for the integrity of the hull! lol. All the horizontal wood in the cabin was rotten and will have to be replaced. I guess what I'm trying to say is that as long as she's good on the outside, she's sailable. The question you have to ask yourself is whether the 4K is acceptable for a project boat. You can still put in the water and sail it and work on the cabin this winter.

Rum Runner,
This is a very inspiring story and the line of reasoning I originally had about the 23. But launching considerations and trailerability are important so I'll probably look at the Catalina 22. However I'm sending you the following link that make be of use to you. I read of several accounts where they pulled boats out that had been submerged and restored them, so I'm sure you'll be okay with your skill set.
http://www.shortypen.com/boats/pocket/backdead.htm

 

[nodachi]

Re: Another thought

"About the settee - although I am not an engineer, I would not be surprised to hear that they contribute to the structural strength of the hull, which would make it problematic whether you can safely rig, tune and sail it without the settee in good shape. FYI, I think they're glassed onto the hull."

Hi Jim,

This is really something to think about. I was under the impression I simply had to rip out the settees because they were simple benches attached to the sole.

 

[nodachi]

Ok, so it seems what you're saying is although the 23 was trailerable it was more work to launch because of the winged keel, so you chose to keep her in a slip but incurred slip fees by doing so. Gotcha.

Yes, I don't want a lot of headaches either trailering. The 23.5 is only slightly larger but I haven't seen that many of them for sale and I don't want to move too much higher displacement wise either because I have a 4 cylinder SUV that I'll use for towing.

 

[VT Fitz]

Great plan

The Catalina-22 is quite similar to the 23, without the above associated problems, so I'm now considering going in that direction.

The Catalina 22 is a great trailer-sailer & there are tons of them out there. You should be able to find one in good shape at a good price.

Good luck & fair winds!

 

[nodachi]

Re: Great plan

"Great plan".

Kevin,

I really appreciate that and you've put a huge smile on my face. : )

I don't know your background or how you became involved in sailing but for me, buying the boat has been one of those "deer-in-the-headlights" experiences in that I've heard so many horror stories or been told by well meaning people that buying a boat is simply a matter of throwing good money into a hole in the water.

But I also know that not all, but some irrresponsible people made some poor choices in purchasing their homes. And their poor choice doesn't mean home ownership is a bad thing, because it isn't. So likewise, I think boat ownership doesn't have to be a bad thing.

I thought people might have gotten irritated with me for saying I was thinking about the Catalina. But as I've loved the Hunter design from day one and said, I originally envisioned saving and saving until I could afford a "nused" mid sized Hunter keel boat until I realized I could be sailing a smaller boat all those years it would take to save up for that. I also realized it's not so much the boat but the sailing that matters - but you should have the right boat in order to do the sailing.

Were it not for the troublesome launching and retrieving of that winged keel and steppiing and unstepping of the mast, the 23 would trump the Catalina 22 for me.

Fair winds to you too my friend.

Larry

 

[Brian M H23]

Re: Great plan

I would like to side both for and against the hunter 23.
I bought one of these when I was 20 (3 years ago, still have it). Of the three summers, one of them I had a slip. Obivously that was the best summer for sailing, but I've done plenty of trailer-sailing. Steppig the mast is not particularly difficult: a little heavier than the 23.5, but definitly lighter than the 260 as long as you buy/make a "mast raising system" with gin pole and side stays (standard on the 260). When you get new tires, get a 14" rim / tire to drop some height. Make sure to get load range D if you plan any high speed travel: this boat is heavy for two tires. It will take some practice, but it can definitly be launched without much hassle. It is definitly a hybrid: small enough to consider trailer-sailing, but just as well at home in a slip.
I have taken this boat all over: from the fall chesapeake with 25 knot winds, to the south shore of lake ontario for a summer, raced in an 80 mile cross-lake race, weathered 3 storms onthe water with 40+ knot winds. It's a solid boat.
However, 4-5k for this boat is far too much. I paid $3500 a few years ago, no motor, -and my interior is in good shape! I'd chck ebay, or my alltime favorite: google "Hunter 23 site:craigslist.org"

 

[Jim Kolstoe]

launching not a problem

I don't want to leave you with the misconception that I regard launching an h23 as difficult. With it in a slip, I can arrive at the marina by transportation other than a tow vehicle and go sailing - a significant cost savings as my original tow vehicle was a suburban (we use a Jeep Grand Cherokee now).
Having helped others with swing keels, fin keels, etc. while hanging out at the marina, I regard the wing keel as easier in several respects, in particular that it does not need as much depth to launch and retrieve. I added two 2x6" planks leading down from the bunks to help center the keel because the boat tended to roll several degrees on pulling the boat/trailer out of the water. But this is a problem I observed on other boats as well, and a similar solution - a keel guide.
As noted by Brian M, stepping and unstepping the mast is not really that hard. The time consuming part is making sure all the stays are clear before you raise it, and then tuning the standing rigging. As I said before, I don't regard the time to rig the boat as excessive. Simply, I like the convenience of a slip and have made a lot of friends on the docks at the best sailing venue in the area. I suggest that if time to rig and launch is a significant issue for you, that you spend some time observing, or assisting, various boats being rigged and launched/retrieved to have a better idea of the time and effort involved for different boats.
Good Luck.
Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo

 

[VT Fitz]

Struck a nerve

.... I also realized it's not so much the boat but the sailing that matters...

It's kinda funny to read the defenses of the 23 after Larry made the suggestion of another brand of boat! We all love our own model!

In that vein, I will put in a vote for the 23.5. We sailed a smaller, more conventional trailer-sailer for 3 seasons & have benefited greatly from the interior room inherent in this water-ballasted Hunter design series:

* By using water ballast, you leave 1000 lbs of ballast at the ramp & can tow a larger package than a lead-ballasted boat.

* By eliminating the side decks & having the topsides blend directly into the coach roof, the cabin interior is much larger than a traditional side deck designed boat.

* With no shoal/winged keel & the intelligently designed mast raising system, it is also far easier to launch, step & retrieve than the 23, from what I've read here.

With this vintage model being '93-'98(?), you can find them at a very affordable price compared to the newer 240. That was the determining factor for us in shopping for the 23.5 instead of the 240.

In short, looking at the option you've suggested, Larry, I think the 23.5 offers more comfort than the Catalina 22, but the Cat is definitely a great boat too & probably can be found for a couple of thousand less.

Most important, Larry, you have the right central idea in the quote above. Get out there & enjoy the sport whatever the medium! You can do it & not break the bank, especially if you have some cash to use right now. There are some excellent bargains.

 

[nodachi]

"It's kinda funny to read the defenses of the 23 after Larry made the suggestion of another brand of boat! We all love our own model! It's kinda funny to read the defenses of the 23 after Larry made the suggestion of another brand of boat! We all love our own model!"

Lol. I saw that too!!!! "Well hrphm!!! Actually the Hunter 23 is capable of stepping its own mast and if you don't feel like sailing it, it will do that for you too!!!"

I think I said, that I've always thought the Hunters were absolutely beautiful and the best designed boats hands down. I never would have been on this forum if I thought otherwise. But when I read the posts about the PITA they were to launch from a trailer and step the mast - but maybe I can just chalk that up to a bunch of sailors being grumpy, huh? : )

If things go well, I'll be prepared to purchase around spring or summer. With a 4 cylinder Hyundai Sante Fe, so I don't want to move too far up in displacement. I haven't seen any 23.5's but I'll keep my eyes open because I don't want my desire to sail over rule my judgment in selecting a boat I'll be happy with for a while to come.