Does anyone know where a water heater raw water heat exchanger lines connect to a universal diesel 5411 and why?
Water heat engine heat exchanger lines connect?
- Thread starter Woodworks1
- Start date
I am not sure what you are asking. The water heater uses the heated antifreeze from the engine to heat water, there is no raw sea water circulating in water heater.
The raw sea water is used to cool the engine through the heat exchanger. The image you have above indicates engine cooling water flow circuit.
The raw sea water is used to cool the engine through the heat exchanger. The image you have above indicates engine cooling water flow circuit.
Joe,
Thank for clarifying that, so where does it get the coolant antifreeze from the antifreeze cooling system?
So is there a shut off to the water heater system antifreeze line, so the sea water will reach 135 degrees and open the thermostat to cool the exhaust system?
Thank for clarifying that, so where does it get the coolant antifreeze from the antifreeze cooling system?
So is there a shut off to the water heater system antifreeze line, so the sea water will reach 135 degrees and open the thermostat to cool the exhaust system?
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Maybe an other thermostat that runs from the engine antifreeze cooling system to the water heater secondary heating system? I did a Google search, but I haven’t found anything but that one diagram for the owners manual for universal diesel 5411 that helped do far.
I have a 135 degrees thermostat which is recommended for salt water. The recommended temperatures are 170 and 180 degrees for freshwater, which I’m in. Why the differences?
At those temperatures we need a mixing valve for the hot water line to the sink shut off also.
I have a 135 degrees thermostat which is recommended for salt water. The recommended temperatures are 170 and 180 degrees for freshwater, which I’m in. Why the differences?
At those temperatures we need a mixing valve for the hot water line to the sink shut off also.
Well, never mind this has gotten way more complicated than I need. I can just heat the water up with the shore power for the amount we use. So instead of doing all this work I’d rather just go sailing.
But I still need to sort out the thermostat temperature ratings for my situation.
But I still need to sort out the thermostat temperature ratings for my situation.
A raw water cooled engine is different than an engine with a HX and coolant. The 5411 appears to be a raw water cooled engine. I have an M25, coolant cooled, which is di0ferent. So I can't answer the question, but merely point out you two are talking past each other about apples and oranges.
The basic question is: How is a water heater connected to a raw water cooled boat diesel engine? Copy that <<< and Google it! Good luck.
The basic question is: How is a water heater connected to a raw water cooled boat diesel engine? Copy that <<< and Google it! Good luck.
You answered it yourself earlier: 170/180 is for freshwater coolant engines with HX, which you do NOT have on your RAW WATER COOLED engine. 135 is fine.
It is not the type of water you are floating it, it is the type of engine you have.
Here I one bunch of options at.
Installing a Hot Water Heater on a Small Diesel
Has anyone installed a 6 gallon hot water heater on a smaller sailboat (27') that has a small diesel (10HP)? I'm considering placing one on my 1987 O'Day 272LE that has a Westerbeke 10HP diesel but I don't know about technical considerations such as proper placement with relation to engine and...
forums.sailboatowners.com
The real problem is connecting my 110 volt water heater system to the water surrounding my boat, causing the potential for electrocution or galvanic reaction in between boats. My understanding is an old type galvanic isolators can short closed as well as open.
So just seems like a good idea just to go sailing and use a little less hot water for my situation.
You have an engine that only has sea water for cooling, no separate coolant/antifreeze circuit like Joe alluded to. The 5411 is a bit unusual in the location of the the thermostat and the way it recirculates water. I don’t know if or how a water heater would usually be plumbed into that setup.
Diesels run more efficiently at higher temperatures. Freshwater cooled engines (traditionally meaning ones cooled by a closed antifreeze/coolant circuit) are regulated to run around 170 for that reason. The problem is that salt comes out of solution at those temperatures, so salt water cooled engines need to run cooler to prevent salt buildup in the block. Even if you’re in fresh water there are probably minerals that could precipitate out, so the thermostat might be set lower on a raw water cooled engine even in fresh water.
Thank for the information. I don’t mean to be rude just a lot of stuff to learn. This boat had a difficult engine in it and was changed out before I got it. so there was a water heater in it that was rusted our and wasn’t connected. it’s all starting to make a little more sense now that I have started to untangle the short between the headphones.
jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 23,841
Clarifying the engine is a standard (unmodified) 5411 Universal. In that configuration, the engine operating temperatures are as follows.
ENGiNE-OPERATiNG-TEMPERATuRE-------135º to 150º F
The operating temperatures were considered too low to draw additional heat from the raw water through a heat exchanger in a water tank for engine-heated domestic hot water.
This does not mean individuals have not experimented with this idea. Raw seawater has caused corrosion and salt blocking issues. You are in a freshwater lake so that the corrosion issue would be less.
Your chart suggests that to use the raw water system for heating domestic water, the best location to tap is the Water Overboard hose. You would draw water from there, run it through a coil in the water tank, and then return the water to the Water Overboard hose so it can flow out the exhaust. If you placed a valve on the connection, you could control the water path, allowing water to flow to the heater or out the exhaust.
An examination of data from Catalina Direct indicates that there have been kits used to convert the engine from Raw Water to Fresh Water cooling.
"3) A very few owners of early Universal 5411 raw water cooled engines report that their engine was equipped with an aftermarket fresh water cooling system. This system had a second Sherwood pump that was different than the raw water pump." (Catalina Direct)
I think shelving the issue and going sailing might be the best choice.
There are a couple different issues you’re conflating here. First is the chance of galvanic corrosion caused by both boats sitting in the same electrolyte (water) and having an electrical connection (the ground wire shared along the dock). This potential exists even without a water heater - your onboard AC circuit should be bonded to your main DC ground, which connects to the water via the prop shaft. Galvanic corrosion should be prevented in this situation by the galvanic isolator, which is basically just a diode meant to prevent current from flowing over the ground wire. These diodes only block current at low voltages, around the levels usually caused by dissimilar metals on boats (like 1-3 volts).
The second issue you’re talking about is the possibility that an electrical fault in the heater could put 110V into the seawater. This wouldn’t be a normal condition - it would be a failure of something in the heater allowing the hot voltage into the water. A galvanic isolator isn’t designed to block these kinds of voltages, but a proper 110V electrical installation with safety features like ELCI breakers that detect an imbalance between hot and neutral could.
As I said thanks to everyone.
I am enjoying the challenge of owing a C30 Mk1.
As I was thinking about this project it came to me what L. Francis Herreshoff said in his book "Sensible Cruising Designs". When planning meals for the weekend sail make them simple. If not, they will be late and everyone will be grumpy and mad at you. Keep it simple stupid.
I am enjoying the challenge of owing a C30 Mk1.
As I was thinking about this project it came to me what L. Francis Herreshoff said in his book "Sensible Cruising Designs". When planning meals for the weekend sail make them simple. If not, they will be late and everyone will be grumpy and mad at you. Keep it simple stupid.
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The schematic you posted shows sea/lake water being pumped into the engine block and then out a fitting on top through a hose and into the exhaust manifold and then injected into the exhaust outlet with some of the water going back to a mixing valve where it is recirculated. The likely reason some of the water is recirculated is to bring the temperature up to operating temperature quicker. The raw water cooled Volvo I used to have was very slow to reach operating temperature especially in the spring with water in the 50° range.
Assuming your HW tank has a heating loop in it, the place to tap into the system is the hose connection between the engine block and the exhaust manifold. Water would flow from the cylinder head to the HW tank and then back to exhaust manifold.
How would that affect cooling? Initially when the water tank is cold it will send cooler water back to the exhaust manifold as the water in the HW tank will extract heat from the cooling water. Once the HW tank is at the same temperature as the as the operating temperature, there would be no effect on the cooling water temp as it enters the exhaust manifold. The max HW temp will be the engine's operating temperature.
The galavnic corrosion and shock issues are totally separate issues and only involve the water heater because it is electric. Remove the water heater and the shock and corrosion issues would still be there. This is all a topic for another thread.
Assuming your HW tank has a heating loop in it, the place to tap into the system is the hose connection between the engine block and the exhaust manifold. Water would flow from the cylinder head to the HW tank and then back to exhaust manifold.
How would that affect cooling? Initially when the water tank is cold it will send cooler water back to the exhaust manifold as the water in the HW tank will extract heat from the cooling water. Once the HW tank is at the same temperature as the as the operating temperature, there would be no effect on the cooling water temp as it enters the exhaust manifold. The max HW temp will be the engine's operating temperature.
The galavnic corrosion and shock issues are totally separate issues and only involve the water heater because it is electric. Remove the water heater and the shock and corrosion issues would still be there. This is all a topic for another thread.
Yes must have an electrical engineering background.
I put 7 GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) in the side of my navigation station. Most are blank faces. They are easy to locate and. protects individual outlets or circuits and they trip at lower current imbalances (around 5mA vs. ELCI's 30mA) making GFCIs ideal for wet areas and ELCIs for main power entry points for broader equipment safety and fire prevention but ELCIs
The ground and neutral are bonded at the Marina’s main circuit breaker panel (service entrance) but are unbounded at the individual boats breaker panels. They do the same thing as in residential housing and commercial buildings because electrons flows through all available pathways according to their impedance/resistance (say a lightning strike.)
I agree, but the only problem is the fact that I don’t trust gauges sometimes and the raw water in the 5411 system is very slow to reach operating temperature especially with water in the 50° range
There’s a small hole in the thermostat allowing water to bypass it when it’s closed to give water to the muffler system but only asmall amount of water not hardly enough to tell if it’s coming out the mufflers tailpipe when you first start the engine and until it reaches operating temperature.
I was thinking about putting the connection to the water heater between the thermostat and the exhaust pipe system but there could be consequences that I am unaware of.
I think if it were where you were talking about (in between the engine and the manifold) and if it had another thermostat there, it would only give water to the water heater when the water was at operating temperatures for the engine. Because it’s already slow to reach operating temperature making this problematic without a thermostat.
As for the possible electrocution, I think this is Paramount to the discussion and I understand the difference between a galvanic isolator and a GFCI or ELCI
I appreciate the information you have given me. It helps me with understanding the system.
It is not clear on the schematic, however after the water leaves the exhaust manifold it is injected into the exhaust hose to cool the hot and caustic exhaust gases. Running the HW tank off this might introduce exhaust gas into the HW heat exchanger, probably not a good idea.
The big question is how long do you typically run the engine? And how long does it take to reach operating temperature. Once at operating temperature it will probably take 30-60 minutes to fully heat the HW tank. One of the laws of thermodynamics says the greater the temperature difference the faster the heat transfer. As the water tank heats up the cooling effect of the HW tank becomes weaker as the water in the tank becomes warmer. Reaching operating temperature in the engine block is more important than reaching that temp in the exhaust manifold. Cooler exhaust temps in the muffler and hoses is not a bad thing.
I agree with Dave on this one. The crossover hose will have a lot of water pump flow through it all the time. It will have hot water before the thermostat opens since the water is circulating in a closed loop until the thermostat opens. When the engine reaches operating temperature, the thermostat shunts water to overboard and less to the recirculating hose; the crossover will have full water pump flow and engine operating temperature most of the time. The only concern would be if the water heater hoses and the heat exchanger in the water heater add enough back pressure to slow down the cooling flow enough to cause overheating. ..
There could be an intended consequences, probably that’s why there’s no diagrams.
It only takes approximately 8.3 BTUs to heat one gallon of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit.
Electricity is provided through my slip fees free of charge.
Two more reasons to just to go sailing and leave the MacGyvering to MacGyver
It only takes approximately 8.3 BTUs to heat one gallon of water by 1 degree Fahrenheit.
Electricity is provided through my slip fees free of charge.
Two more reasons to just to go sailing and leave the MacGyvering to MacGyver