water between liner and hull

[Deucer]

Man...gotta love owning a sail boat. In a much earlier post (like in 07), I was wondering if anybody else had mysterious leaks. Well, here's what I've found out.

I don't think my boat leaks seawater. I've got a leak somewhere when it rains and the water runs down between the liner and the hull. I've got water between the cabin sole and the ballast tank. I can hear is squish when I bounce on it some, plus it runs out of holes drilled in the sole (but not into the tank).

I know this because my boat hasn't been in the water for over a year and I'm still battling water (more rain, more water).

Anybody else ever have this problem?

 

[Bob 04 H260]

Usually the hatch on these boats will leak water when it rains, it collects around the galley and seeps under the wooden floor. It seems the only fix is to buy a cover for the companionway hatch. This web site sells a very good sunbrella cover for the hatch that will eliminate this problem and the floor will then be able to dry out.

I also bought the deluxe poptop cover for the 260 from this site and was very displeased with the way it fits. It is well made in terms of construction but too small and there is no way it would be bug proof. When I get a chance I intend to have another marine seamstress rebuild it for a proper fit and function.

Bob

 

[Deucer]

Bob,

I've got a companionway cover...sigh...

 

[soling42]

Does it cover the pop top and companionway slats too? Mine solved the blowing rain leak as Bob said. I also had a leak in the cabin roof near the mast step. Possibly a caulking issue around the compression post/tabernacle. Not an easy fix.
Good luck, Mike

 

[Sublime]

Does it cover the pop top and companionway slats too? Mine solved the blowing rain leak as Bob said. I also had a leak in the cabin roof near the mast step. Possibly a caulking issue around the compression post/tabernacle. Not an easy fix.
Good luck, Mike

I've never seen one of these covers off. How does it attach to the boat? Snaps? How hard is it to install snaps on the boat?

 

[soling42]

I had kelli stitch ours up with a piece of sunbrella and some UV thread. Stainless snaps were marked out on the canvas and boat then pressed onto the cover by my canvas buddy for the price of the snaps and a few cold ones. I used about half as many snaps as the pic from the production ver above and it still works great. I added the male end of the snap by simply screwing it onto the boat with a tiny predrilled hole and a dab of 3M 5200. Super easy.

An easy project that solved an evasive leak issue from blowing rain and keeps the sun out of the cabin too. Here's a pic of it unsnapped, rolled fwd and held in place by my seamstress somewhere near Boca Grande

Good luck. Mike

 

[BobSail]

We have the same thing going on Deucer. We have both a companionway cover and boom tent over the cockpit. I've been chasing it for several years now. It stopped last year and reappeared this year. It always appears on top of the tank and then moves about while sailing. I thought it might be from the ballast valve leaking and allowing water into the boat through the screw threads at the top of the tank (we had the most water one weekend when there were six onboard). But since yours is leaking on the hard it is obviously from a different source. For rainwater, I've been suspect about the point where the centerboard line enters at the base of the mast. I've wondered if it somehow leaks down the inside of the compression post tube and spreads out on top of the tank. I don't see any staining from water running down the cabin interior sides, and the top of the tank is very hard to see under the cabin sole. George Kobernus has a pretty good discussion on H260 leak sources that he maintains on his website: http://www.h260.com/

Best of luck in chasing it down. We'll all certainly be interested if you find the silver bullet!

 

[Deucer]

Hadn't thought about the compression post, but makes sense. I may try blocking that with something and see if it fixes it. In tearing the boat apart, I found a spot rubbed to the fibers in the anchor locker. Coupled with the drain constantly getting cloggeed and the locker filling with water, we though maybe that was it. Fixed that spot today. Thanks everybody for the insights.

 

[soling42]

Bob,
On my '04 there's a glob of silicone caulking at the top of the post that could fail and then there's no other unsealed penetrations in the post until it exits inside the plate at the base which is sealed so tight it took a pneumatic jack to pull mine out in yet another attempt at a more sensible table (at least it was easier with a 12ton jack)(pic).

On the other hand there are a few complaints about leaking at the bolt for the CB bracket. Mine was buried in 5200 and never leaked but they might not have been so well sealed on earlier versions or just give up over time. I'd uncovered the bolt in the pic below and found it slightly rusty from lack of air on the stainless.

I also siliconed the entire gap between the step wall and tank top at the ballast drain and vent so any leakage would be obvious and contained in the area under the step. I don't know why it couldn't be done the same way inside the compression post recess from the tank top to the inside of the liner wall. It's a big gap in spots but it wouldn't be any kind of critical seal and would stop any water migration.

My next guess on my nagging leak is still the bilge pump outlet being installed without an air loop above the water line when heeling to port(Not Deaucers issue on the trailer I hope). The original bilge and drain hose used on these boats was also pretty low quality and now getting aged so all the thru hull hoses and anchor well are certainly good spots to be concerned. Nothing wrecks your day/night faster than an old drain hose failing below the water line(think both sinks).

Also in the endless chase for a dry bilge, Mike

 

[BobSail]

Thanks Mike for those ideas. I'll look closer at the areas you described next time I'm at the boat. It seems to be an endless conundrum. I've wondered about the bilge pump too, but the water first seems show on the top of the ballast tank. The last time I hand-pumped about four gallons of water out of the recessed area in front of the step (where the worker has his left tennis shoe in the image). I would think the two biggest culprits are the spots you described, but I just can't seem to see any evidence of intrusion. My compression post area looks like they attended to it at the factory with copious amounts of sealant and adhesive. I can't really see behind any of the caulking to tell if its finding a way underneath.

In Deucer's case it could be meandering aft from the anchor locker into this area, but I can't recall if there is an open run across the top of the tank. It seemed as if the forward settee locker is 100% tabbed to the tank top. It appears that any water finding its way into this recess has to travel over the outside ridge of the tank top or enter from above.

Hopefully we can all solve the riddle!

 

[soling42]

4 gals! I'm loosing it when I see a 1/2gal in the bilge. I've gotta settle down. Maybe your issue is all that Oregon liquid sunshine sneaking past that tabernacle seal? It's been raining here for 4 whole days straight and already I want to move where the sun shines.

I hate to even say it but I've always hated these tank lid pics for fear that the two bare handed, blue jeaned layup guys were huffing too much resin fumes and neglected to seal these tank lids well. I also wondered how these super light weight boats couldn't flex enough to just pop that lid loose anyway. I know I put my 260 through its paces offshore and that guy in the bow sure doesn't look too concerned about how my day will go if he missed something.

OK, it's just me and I shouldn't sail it like it's an Open 60 Sorry. We'll figure these leaks out. I'm on it to caulk the CB well, Cabin roof at the tabernacle, replace all the hoses, adding an air loop in the bilge line and double clamping everything. If it's still coming in I'm calling the guy in the pic above.

PS maybe if it's in the bilge it's a fresh water tank/plumbing leak??

Good luck, Mike

 

[Deucer]

Guys,
Thanks for all the clues. I'm pulling what panels I can to see if I can detect where the water's running. So far no luck. Tomorrow or Friday I hope to hose the boat down while I'm inside (ok, have somebody hose it down) and see if I can detect anything. I pulled the panel at the top of the fore berth, but didn't see anything. But that doesn't mean the drain for the anchor locker isn't leaking.

BobSail, how did you pump out the water. I can't find anyway short of drilling a hole in the sole to access the water.

 

[soling42]

Deaucer,
Have you checked for damage along the rail from stock car like docking practices. I found a spot on mine the other day that might have compromised the joint possibly creating a new leak zone.

Don't drill a hole in that sole. The next stop is the ballast tank(at least in the liner for my '04). Even a tiny amount of water between the 1/4" floor material and the liner tray it sits in will sound squishy but there's virtually nothing between the floor and the tank except some adhesive holding the laminate in place.

Good luck with the virtual rain storm.

 

[BobSail]

Deucer:

To pump the water off the top of the ballast tank, I bought one of those little hand pumps that includes some small diameter hose that attach to the suction end. I dropped the hose down in the companionway step compartment between the tank top (where the valve screw is located) and the sole wall on the port side. It's a narrow slot, but you can snake the small hose down to the recessed area (you can see the relation of the recess to the valve tank top in the previous image). I pumped it into a plastic bucket. Here's the link for the pump:

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/google/custom.htm?vp=11028

The tough part is keeping the hose down in the recessed area while trying to operate the pump. Not enough hands. It's best with two people. I'm in the process of looking for an electric portable pump that can do the same from a 12-volt access point. You could then move the small hose around while it's running to catch all of the water. Same for the rear compartments near the bilge pump. If there was a low-profile electric pump it might be possible to slide it in from one of the aft access points, but I haven't found one yet.

I think I remember an old HOW article where someone actually put an inspection port in the middle of the sole and mounted a bilge pump there, but I haven't been able to find it. There were some images of the project. Like Mike, I'm not excited about drilling or creating holes over the top of the tank. I'd rather try and find the leak!

 

[soling42]

Bob,
Isn't the section with all the water you just described inside the step, simply the bilge and fairly accessible from the hatch where the bilge pump is? I misunderstood your previous post to mean that you had 4gals in the cabin on the galley/salon floor. 4gals rolling around in the bilge is still a nasty issue soaking the bedding and becoming generally annoying. Pardon the pun but the bilge pump location sucks anyway.

Now that you mention it I too remember the inspection port post but it was up on top of the vent area. I bought a small access port but couldn't bring myself to cut it in, even up there. The pressure on the tank lid when the boat heels would be enough that a failure of the inspection port would be shocking and possibly catastrophic.

There's a leak somewhere for all of us that can migrate around the sides of the tank to appear in unrelated areas but I'd use a caulking gun and leave the drill/saw on the bench. A small wet/dry vac with any size hose will do wonders cleaning up a few gals of any bilge juice.

 

[BobSail]

Mike:

The four gallons (two 2-gallon bucketfulls) came from the recess on top of the tank. It was very obvious that there was a lot of water there, because you could here it swishing (as opposed to squishing) as you walked from side to side.

I spent some time in the archives this morning, and found the post you're referencing about a port at the top of the tank. I also found a discussion that mentions people putting an inspection port in the sole to access this area, but there were no pictures. I may have seen them on someone's pesonal site a few years back. I am in agreement with you though, this is not a good place to be punching holes!

http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=263528&highlight=ridge

 

[Deucer]

Went to the archive link. Interesting. What do you guys think about putting an access underneath the sink?

 

[Deucer]

OBTW, the guy who owned the boat before me put two screws through the teak to hold it down. I thought that maybe he hit the ballast, but he didn't. That's where I've got water leaking from (the screw holes). But, there's a good 1/2 inch between the sole and the tank. Um...maybe with a Forsner bit? Only need a 1/2 hole. I'll have to ponder. On a good note, got the engine hung and after cleaning the carb, it seems to be purring right nicely. Now...to rewire the mast light socket (lights were intermittent...found corrosion and of all things, a socket with NO connection giving me 9 volts...must be a short in the socket...so off to West Marine tomorrow...sigh).

 

[soling42]

Deaucer,
I'd just pull both of those screws and put a shop vac on one and hope the other one breathes. glad you got your motor fixed.

I wouldn't intentionally do anything that would increase the likelihood of a breach in that tank. It's not very deep and there's nothing in there but if you really want to see in there(or other places we won't discuss) just get a drain cam
http://www.harborfreight.com/wireless-inspection-camera-with-24-inch-color-lcd-monitor-66550.html
It'll be so much fun you'll forget all about wanting to drill a giant hole anywhere. The older I get the more creative I am about not cramming myself into tiny spots, just peak around the corner.

Have fun and send some video of your (boats)ballast tank, especially if there are any gremlins in there.

 

[Deucer]

Soling,

Thanks. May have to give the camera try. And there's SO many more uses for it. Got the new socket for the lights...now if it would just stop raining. I'm starting to take the fact that I can't get the boat in the water personally. While we're tentatively scheduled for Sunday morning, the admiral says with a sly smile that just as soon as I get in to the dock, we'll have to pull it for a hurricane. So, if one hits the Gulf Coast in the next week or so..it'll be my fault..sigh...