I have been looking at water ballasted Hunters. I am interested in trailer sailing and see the advantage of water ballast for trailering. I would be interested in opinions of those of you that have sailed both a water ballasted boat and those with a weighted keel as to the pro's and con's of each. I realize there is no perfect boat. With the weight so high water ballast what does that do to the sailing characteristics? Thanks in advance.
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Hunter 23.5
Gary, I have a 1993 Hunter 23.5 which is water ballasted, and have owned the boat for about 4 years. The water ballast is a good thing when you are trailering. My Hunter weighs about 2,000 lbs "dry" and about 3,000 lbs when the ballast tank is full. With a centerboard and the water ballast, the boat draws only 18" of water with the board up. Obviously, this makes it much easier to load and unload from a ramp. As to sailing, the boat is markedly "tender" in gusts, but will find it's balance once the initial heeling is controlled. It does require more attention due to the position of the ballast and it's movement. This does make some passengers uneasy until they see you have control of it, as well as causing your drink to spill.... I would suspect that the boat tracks as well as a shoal keel, in that the water draw with the board down is like 5-1/2 feet. As with most hunters, you should reef the large mainsail when the wind is above 15 knots or so, depending on you level of activity. Even reefed, the boat will hit hull speed with little problem in a blow. The bottom line is that once you develop a feel for the rather quick heeling and recovery, you would enjoy the boat. The fixed keel is a little slower in reacting to gusts, for a better ride with a less amount of attention. I've done some performance racing on a 26' keel boat, and would perfer it for stability and handling. But, I sail on an inland lake with shallows and other obstructions and the centerboard and transom mounted rudder have saved my butt from running aground when the water is down on the lake. So, pros and cons. Water ballast for flexibility and a keel for performance and stability. Hope this helps, Mike
Gary, I have a 1993 Hunter 23.5 which is water ballasted, and have owned the boat for about 4 years. The water ballast is a good thing when you are trailering. My Hunter weighs about 2,000 lbs "dry" and about 3,000 lbs when the ballast tank is full. With a centerboard and the water ballast, the boat draws only 18" of water with the board up. Obviously, this makes it much easier to load and unload from a ramp. As to sailing, the boat is markedly "tender" in gusts, but will find it's balance once the initial heeling is controlled. It does require more attention due to the position of the ballast and it's movement. This does make some passengers uneasy until they see you have control of it, as well as causing your drink to spill.... I would suspect that the boat tracks as well as a shoal keel, in that the water draw with the board down is like 5-1/2 feet. As with most hunters, you should reef the large mainsail when the wind is above 15 knots or so, depending on you level of activity. Even reefed, the boat will hit hull speed with little problem in a blow. The bottom line is that once you develop a feel for the rather quick heeling and recovery, you would enjoy the boat. The fixed keel is a little slower in reacting to gusts, for a better ride with a less amount of attention. I've done some performance racing on a 26' keel boat, and would perfer it for stability and handling. But, I sail on an inland lake with shallows and other obstructions and the centerboard and transom mounted rudder have saved my butt from running aground when the water is down on the lake. So, pros and cons. Water ballast for flexibility and a keel for performance and stability. Hope this helps, Mike
Hunter 23.5 at Lake Erie
Hmm, didn't know I could post a photo, but here's the Yacht "C" on an easy cruise on Lake Erie. Mike
Hmm, didn't know I could post a photo, but here's the Yacht "C" on an easy cruise on Lake Erie. Mike
Water Ballast
I also have the water ballast 23.5 and sail it on cape Cod bay. Check the attached photo and try that with a fixed keel boat. The severe tides here leave moored boats high and dry twice a day and the Hunter water ballast adapts perfectly.
I also have the water ballast 23.5 and sail it on cape Cod bay. Check the attached photo and try that with a fixed keel boat. The severe tides here leave moored boats high and dry twice a day and the Hunter water ballast adapts perfectly.
I like my H240
I have owned an H240 for three years now. For trailer sailing, its great. It is relatively easy to get on and off the trailer; and pulling it (with a Tahoe) is a breeze. As has been said, the boat is more tender than a weighted keel, but you get a level of comfort quickly. I'm not into racing or performance sailing. I'm simply out to enjoy the ride... and I do with this boat.
I have owned an H240 for three years now. For trailer sailing, its great. It is relatively easy to get on and off the trailer; and pulling it (with a Tahoe) is a breeze. As has been said, the boat is more tender than a weighted keel, but you get a level of comfort quickly. I'm not into racing or performance sailing. I'm simply out to enjoy the ride... and I do with this boat.
Well said Mike!
I could not have said it better myself Mike! I have a H260 and she definitely rounds up quickly in a gust. Just have to be aware and control it like you said. We sail on Lake Lanier near Atlanta and bought our boat so we could sail in different waters. That's the reason to have a water ballast, trailerable boat. Also, reef early and often. Allan s/v Carrousail
I could not have said it better myself Mike! I have a H260 and she definitely rounds up quickly in a gust. Just have to be aware and control it like you said. We sail on Lake Lanier near Atlanta and bought our boat so we could sail in different waters. That's the reason to have a water ballast, trailerable boat. Also, reef early and often. Allan s/v Carrousail
WB vs PB
Reasons to get the lead out! Water ballasted (WB) boats offer these advantages over boats with keels that are often made of lead (PB): + Cost advanatage - The water is free, the PB cost lots to build, and is reflected in the price of the boat. + Easier trailer and ramp launch + Safety - Most WB boats are built with positve floatation so they will float even if full of water. + Variable draft -- WB, trailerable boats also have a swinging or dagger type centerboard (and rudder) that can be retracted in thin water (and enables easy haul and trailering). Advantages of Keel boat: + Generally less tender with lower center of gravity. + Fin keel boats will have a tighter turning radius as their center of mass (forward/aft) is more concentrated than a WB boat that has ballast distributed in the ballast tank along the centerline of the boat. fair winds, Tom
Reasons to get the lead out! Water ballasted (WB) boats offer these advantages over boats with keels that are often made of lead (PB): + Cost advanatage - The water is free, the PB cost lots to build, and is reflected in the price of the boat. + Easier trailer and ramp launch + Safety - Most WB boats are built with positve floatation so they will float even if full of water. + Variable draft -- WB, trailerable boats also have a swinging or dagger type centerboard (and rudder) that can be retracted in thin water (and enables easy haul and trailering). Advantages of Keel boat: + Generally less tender with lower center of gravity. + Fin keel boats will have a tighter turning radius as their center of mass (forward/aft) is more concentrated than a WB boat that has ballast distributed in the ballast tank along the centerline of the boat. fair winds, Tom
Tom
Tom I'm interested in your background to imply water ballest boats dont perform well and aren't safe. I race my H240 on the Chesapeake in a phrf fleet. I am the only water ballest boat. I consistently finish top 1/3 of fleet. As far as safety I'm not aware of any issues. I've had mine since 98 and have both cruised and raced all over the bay in anything from a drifter to 25-30 knots with 5-6 ft waves. In heavier conditions its obviously not as comfortable as a deeper draft keel boat, but it would be a challenge to trailer sail something with a fixed keel in this size.
Tom I'm interested in your background to imply water ballest boats dont perform well and aren't safe. I race my H240 on the Chesapeake in a phrf fleet. I am the only water ballest boat. I consistently finish top 1/3 of fleet. As far as safety I'm not aware of any issues. I've had mine since 98 and have both cruised and raced all over the bay in anything from a drifter to 25-30 knots with 5-6 ft waves. In heavier conditions its obviously not as comfortable as a deeper draft keel boat, but it would be a challenge to trailer sail something with a fixed keel in this size.
Performance
Winning a PHRF handicap race is not an indication of performance. It indicates how you sailed against your rating. The true measure is finish order over the line, not after the handicap adjustment. The handicap rating itself is a great indication of how well a vessels sails. Compare rating values of the water ballast vessels and those will keels. You'll find an h24 rating is close to the h22 and not competitive with that Catalina 25. (Tom's analogy is like a bowling league, the team that wins rarely has the highest score) A few years ago several people died in New England on a water ballast Mcgregor when it capsized while motoring on a flat lake. Water ballast clearly has it's advantages but true performance and safety are not one of them
Winning a PHRF handicap race is not an indication of performance. It indicates how you sailed against your rating. The true measure is finish order over the line, not after the handicap adjustment. The handicap rating itself is a great indication of how well a vessels sails. Compare rating values of the water ballast vessels and those will keels. You'll find an h24 rating is close to the h22 and not competitive with that Catalina 25. (Tom's analogy is like a bowling league, the team that wins rarely has the highest score) A few years ago several people died in New England on a water ballast Mcgregor when it capsized while motoring on a flat lake. Water ballast clearly has it's advantages but true performance and safety are not one of them
Capsized?
How the $!&@ do you capsize a boat while motoring on a flat lake? And I say "you" because ballast or lack thereof does not capsize boats, skippers do. Water ballast boats are generally not designed with the righting-moments that blue water cruisers are, nor are they likely to right themselves when capsized. We know that. So, how is a trailerable, water ballasted boat unsafe when used for its intended purpose?
How the $!&@ do you capsize a boat while motoring on a flat lake? And I say "you" because ballast or lack thereof does not capsize boats, skippers do. Water ballast boats are generally not designed with the righting-moments that blue water cruisers are, nor are they likely to right themselves when capsized. We know that. So, how is a trailerable, water ballasted boat unsafe when used for its intended purpose?
Well, Daryl, there was a problem . . .
A few years ago on a Mac -- but I suggest you go track down and read the story. As I remember it, the boat was overloaded with people. In addition -- and this is very important -- they did NOT have the water ballast filled. If my memory is correct, I really don't see how that says anything about the safety of water ballasted boats.
A few years ago on a Mac -- but I suggest you go track down and read the story. As I remember it, the boat was overloaded with people. In addition -- and this is very important -- they did NOT have the water ballast filled. If my memory is correct, I really don't see how that says anything about the safety of water ballasted boats.
More Advantages of WB
First, no one has mentioned the advantages of being able to trailer your boat, park it in your driveway, and maintain it from your home. Even though my boat was purchased new, I still cannot believe the amount of work, and time, I have spent on this boat. From my first project, slipping foam insulation around the mast wires to keep them from making noise (December 2001) to last weeks project of building a shelf in the bathroom (January 2005) it is such an advantage to do this work from your home where all your tools are and access to a Home Depot or Ace Hardware is relatively convenient. Secondly, it should also be mentioned the expense of ownership is also greatly reduced by keeping your boat at home. In my situation I rent a slip for $800 in a neighbor's backyard on a canal off the Great South Bay. Other then this expense, $400 for insurance and $10 for gas I have no other annual expenses. I have known of so many friends and neighbors who have become "turned off" to the whole boat ownership "thing" because of the negative effects of these two factors. My boat will go in the water March or April 1ST, depending on the winter, and comes out Thanksgiving Day weekend. I live for the time when she is in the water and can be played with (work on the boat is not allowed during this period) and I live for the time when she is in my driveway and I can begin work on my list of projects, and I do not have to worry about her at the dock (hurricanes and other issues). I am still trying to decide which period I like more!!! With respect to sailing charactistics, everything previously said in this post is true. I am a firm beliver in the formula "5% Hardware (Sailing Vessel), 5% Software (Water/Weather) & 90% User (the Captain)." Anyone who doubts this formula should study up on E. Shakelton and his 800 mile Antartic trip in a 22ft row boat. I am not suggesting "blue water" sailing in these W/B boats but for coastal cruising, inland waterways and lakes they are, in my opinion, the overall perfect boat.
First, no one has mentioned the advantages of being able to trailer your boat, park it in your driveway, and maintain it from your home. Even though my boat was purchased new, I still cannot believe the amount of work, and time, I have spent on this boat. From my first project, slipping foam insulation around the mast wires to keep them from making noise (December 2001) to last weeks project of building a shelf in the bathroom (January 2005) it is such an advantage to do this work from your home where all your tools are and access to a Home Depot or Ace Hardware is relatively convenient. Secondly, it should also be mentioned the expense of ownership is also greatly reduced by keeping your boat at home. In my situation I rent a slip for $800 in a neighbor's backyard on a canal off the Great South Bay. Other then this expense, $400 for insurance and $10 for gas I have no other annual expenses. I have known of so many friends and neighbors who have become "turned off" to the whole boat ownership "thing" because of the negative effects of these two factors. My boat will go in the water March or April 1ST, depending on the winter, and comes out Thanksgiving Day weekend. I live for the time when she is in the water and can be played with (work on the boat is not allowed during this period) and I live for the time when she is in my driveway and I can begin work on my list of projects, and I do not have to worry about her at the dock (hurricanes and other issues). I am still trying to decide which period I like more!!! With respect to sailing charactistics, everything previously said in this post is true. I am a firm beliver in the formula "5% Hardware (Sailing Vessel), 5% Software (Water/Weather) & 90% User (the Captain)." Anyone who doubts this formula should study up on E. Shakelton and his 800 mile Antartic trip in a 22ft row boat. I am not suggesting "blue water" sailing in these W/B boats but for coastal cruising, inland waterways and lakes they are, in my opinion, the overall perfect boat.
Water Ballast Boats
There is a lot on the Internet regarding water ballast boats. Search Google and the archives on sailboatowners.com forums. Although water ballast is used in a variety of boats, its most common use today is in trailerable vessels, which by their very size and displacement are somewhat tender. I spent a lot of time comparing the H260 WB to the Colgate 26 FK (which I sailed for 5 years.) See the specs link on this page: http://kobernus.com/H260_web/index.html My own pre-purchase research and actual experience with the H260 WB is that the boat is very safe for costal and inland lake sailing. It has positive flotation, will probably right itself without much trouble, and sails much like any other sailboat of its size. The H260 is a little more tender for the first few degrees of heel, and rounds up quickly in gusts if you are not paying attention. The first couple of times this happened I messed my pants, but quickly learned that the boat was saving me from my own shortcomings as a sailor. The Colgate 26 initially is not quite as tender. The C26 will eventually round up, but by then everybody is soaking wet and the crew is scared out of their wits. In summary, the H260 is much more comfortable and dryer than any other comparable size boat I looked at. In addition, it has taken me through some very rough weather with no problems.
There is a lot on the Internet regarding water ballast boats. Search Google and the archives on sailboatowners.com forums. Although water ballast is used in a variety of boats, its most common use today is in trailerable vessels, which by their very size and displacement are somewhat tender. I spent a lot of time comparing the H260 WB to the Colgate 26 FK (which I sailed for 5 years.) See the specs link on this page: http://kobernus.com/H260_web/index.html My own pre-purchase research and actual experience with the H260 WB is that the boat is very safe for costal and inland lake sailing. It has positive flotation, will probably right itself without much trouble, and sails much like any other sailboat of its size. The H260 is a little more tender for the first few degrees of heel, and rounds up quickly in gusts if you are not paying attention. The first couple of times this happened I messed my pants, but quickly learned that the boat was saving me from my own shortcomings as a sailor. The Colgate 26 initially is not quite as tender. The C26 will eventually round up, but by then everybody is soaking wet and the crew is scared out of their wits. In summary, the H260 is much more comfortable and dryer than any other comparable size boat I looked at. In addition, it has taken me through some very rough weather with no problems.
McGregor Water Ballast Tragedy
There are sigificant differences between the design of the Hunter WB boats and the Mac 26. Just so there is no confusion, here is the story about the McGregor tragedy. This boat is certified for a maximum of 6 people, not 8 adults, 3 children and two dogs. Also, it helps if the crew is qualified to operate the boat, is sober, and the ballast tank is filled. http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html One child survived because the boat has positive flotation and trapped an air bubble in the cabin.
There are sigificant differences between the design of the Hunter WB boats and the Mac 26. Just so there is no confusion, here is the story about the McGregor tragedy. This boat is certified for a maximum of 6 people, not 8 adults, 3 children and two dogs. Also, it helps if the crew is qualified to operate the boat, is sober, and the ballast tank is filled. http://www.ne-ts.com/ar/ar-407capsize.html One child survived because the boat has positive flotation and trapped an air bubble in the cabin.
WTF?
Darryl, Are you trying to qualify as the Forum troll here? Perhaps we should srap anythig smaller than a 12 metre? Or should we understand that all boats should be Catalina 25's? As to the tenderness of the 260, People overreact to a little tenderness. My Hunter 27-2 will round up in a gust as well. Eventually you learn to compensate, but before that it is a DESIGNED safety feature of the boat. Because the boat uses water for ballast, the first ten degrees or so will not create a lot of force on the righting arm, but those little boats go out and they come back in. My 27-2 is not much longer, but I can tell you that you wouldn't want to trailer this thing. Towing a boat with a full ton of lead below it would be a challenge. The 26' near me has a much lighter mast as well. I'm sure he can easily drop it at will. Trolls go home. I'm sure there's some Cape Dory owner willing to berate Darryl right not for not having a full keel.
Darryl, Are you trying to qualify as the Forum troll here? Perhaps we should srap anythig smaller than a 12 metre? Or should we understand that all boats should be Catalina 25's? As to the tenderness of the 260, People overreact to a little tenderness. My Hunter 27-2 will round up in a gust as well. Eventually you learn to compensate, but before that it is a DESIGNED safety feature of the boat. Because the boat uses water for ballast, the first ten degrees or so will not create a lot of force on the righting arm, but those little boats go out and they come back in. My 27-2 is not much longer, but I can tell you that you wouldn't want to trailer this thing. Towing a boat with a full ton of lead below it would be a challenge. The 26' near me has a much lighter mast as well. I'm sure he can easily drop it at will. Trolls go home. I'm sure there's some Cape Dory owner willing to berate Darryl right not for not having a full keel.
Tom Grass
I agree with ALL of the Pro- WB messages in this thread. My question - with all of these advantages - why is Hunter abandoning their WB boats? Tom Grass Grasshopper II H-26 #174 Lake Carlyle, Illinois (St. Louis)
I agree with ALL of the Pro- WB messages in this thread. My question - with all of these advantages - why is Hunter abandoning their WB boats? Tom Grass Grasshopper II H-26 #174 Lake Carlyle, Illinois (St. Louis)
Its a business
Cars had fins then they stopped, They go square then they go round again. Boats aren't any different. They have to keep the models changing at least once in a while. Sometimes that may the biggest reason. Its a rough business right now. All that growth in high end motorcycles has taken a lot of money in the leisure market. There's more fishing on TV than sailing, and that hurts marketing for the boatyards. I haven't seen the new boat models yet. The only boat show in this area is almost all power. Sometimes diferent is just for its own sake. If the went to a new model with a backstay someone would point to a single example of a B&R rig being demasted as proof of a major design flaw.
Cars had fins then they stopped, They go square then they go round again. Boats aren't any different. They have to keep the models changing at least once in a while. Sometimes that may the biggest reason. Its a rough business right now. All that growth in high end motorcycles has taken a lot of money in the leisure market. There's more fishing on TV than sailing, and that hurts marketing for the boatyards. I haven't seen the new boat models yet. The only boat show in this area is almost all power. Sometimes diferent is just for its own sake. If the went to a new model with a backstay someone would point to a single example of a B&R rig being demasted as proof of a major design flaw.
Kevin?
Be nice or you can't play here. Seems a lot of WB fans (groupies) wrote about all the advantages and none of the disadvantages. The original poster (Gary) should be aware they exsist. My post acknowledged the advantages. Since we're not related, I can't be a troll. Tgrass, it's all business. Hunter frequently changes designs. Sometimes they are experiments gone bad, sometimes it's marketing and other times changes are made to reduce production costs They may have stopped these because they are considered ugly buy folks that have traditional boats
Be nice or you can't play here. Seems a lot of WB fans (groupies) wrote about all the advantages and none of the disadvantages. The original poster (Gary) should be aware they exsist. My post acknowledged the advantages. Since we're not related, I can't be a troll. Tgrass, it's all business. Hunter frequently changes designs. Sometimes they are experiments gone bad, sometimes it's marketing and other times changes are made to reduce production costs They may have stopped these because they are considered ugly buy folks that have traditional boats
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