Water Ballast Analysis (From another thread)

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Benny

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Sep 27, 2008
1,149
Hunter 320 Tampa, FL
Water ballast does work but in order to be able to understand it you must 1) understand that water weighs approximately 8.345 lbs per gallon wether it is in air or in water 2) the weight of the water confined to the tank becomes part of the weight of the boat, the tanks acts just like a solid slab because the water is confined 3) For water ballast to work that tank must be affixed to the centerline of the boat, concentrating that weight in a small area (rolling water inside the hull would not provide righting forces) 4) It is that weight that gives the boat stability and it is the resistnce to move that weight from the centerline that gives it righting force.

So the analysis is correct it is just explained in different terms. I think most of the confussion may come from our perception that water in water may seem weightless but that is not the case. The analysis considers the weight of water as a given.
 
Jul 5, 2007
196
Kenner Privateer 26 schooner, Carlyle Illinois
Maybe someone can explain this about water ballast....On my lake, this summer, there were 2 instances of a 26' water ballasted motor sailer that snapped off the mast at the spreaders, when it popped upright after being knocked down by a gust. Both people said... the boat went over until the main was touching the water. The boat stayed that way for a few seconds, then snapped back up violently enough that the mast broke off at the spreaders. It was not especially windy those days, as I was out also, and had no trouble at all. I couldn't believe that those boats could have even been knocked down in that weather.

In my bristol 24, I've been knocked down about as far as the other boats claimed, in much higher winds, and the boat came back up smoothly, and under control.

Are the water ballast tanks baffled to prevent the water from moving too fast within?
 
Jun 7, 2007
875
Pearson- 323- Mobile,Al
Mast breaking had nothing to do with water ballast. Stays must have been too loose. In my 1988 mac 26 I have been out in some rough stuff and when reefed we were fine. Sailed 40 miles one day on Kentucky lake when the main channel was solid white caps. Double reefed main kept us at hull speed beating up the lake.
water does not move in the ballast tank when it is full of water. Only an idiot would sail without the tank being full .
Water is not the perfect ballast. But it might be near perfect for a trailerable boat. My present boat has 4500#s of lead. Imagine trying to tow a 12,500# boat !!!!! The perfect ballast would be a lead tube hanging 10-15 feet into the water on a long thin hydrodynamic "wing". But 10-15' of draft is difficult even in a marina kept boat. Boats are good compromises between many variables. My present boat draws 4.5' it would sail better if it drew 10' but that would sure make an anchorage harder to locate. Every boat is a compromise. Choose your poison.
 

druid

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Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
George H260, there is nothing wrong with Brandon's analysis. There are apparently those who, for whatever reason, WANT it to be wrong.... The arguments against it are based on faulty physics. -Paul
I don't necessarily WANT it to be wrong, I'm just challenging it. I also challenged my 4th-year fluid dynamics professor (and iirc I was right!). I'm challenging it because it doesn't "work" with my model, and after thinking about Roger's comments, I'm beginning to see why. But it IS wrong in some details - for one thing, I believe the CG must be below the CB or else the boat tips over.

But mainly I wanted a good discussion on physics, and mainly I'm getting it, as long as I ignore the Mac-bashing and Mac-hugging posts... ;)

druid
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
My J24 has been knocked down so many times i don't count anymore and how fast it comes back up depends on what was going on

Of course the standing rigging is a LOT more robust so nothing failed and allowed the mast to break
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Maybe someone can explain this about water ballast....On my lake, this summer, there were 2 instances of a 26' water ballasted motor sailer that snapped off the mast at the spreaders, when it popped upright after being knocked down by a gust. Both people said... the boat went over until the main was touching the water. The boat stayed that way for a few seconds, then snapped back up violently enough that the mast broke off at the spreaders. It was not especially windy those days, as I was out also, and had no trouble at all. I couldn't believe that those boats could have even been knocked down in that weather.

In my bristol 24, I've been knocked down about as far as the other boats claimed, in much higher winds, and the boat came back up smoothly, and under control.

Are the water ballast tanks baffled to prevent the water from moving too fast within?
You said "motor sailer". Do you know if it was a MacGregor 26 X or M the only two Mac models that are motor sailers, the S and D aren't. Could it have been a Hunter? The guys on the X and M forum haven't said anything about that incident that I remember.

If there is water in any of the Mac ballast tanks it shouldn't be moving around. You are suppose to fill them to withing an inch or so of the top of the tank and that area that does have air in it is a very small area of the total tank.

With an older S or D you always have the tank filled period unless for some reason you forget, but it should always be full. Now the X and M being power (50 HP or more outboards) sailers are a different story. If you are on the outboard you can run the ballast tanks empty so that the boat will get up on plane. You shouldn't try to run in this configuration with the sails up at all.

Any time the sails are up the ballast tank is suppose to be full. Now people being people this situation has not always been followed and there have been problems.

I think another problem is that since these are relative low cost boats they attract a lot of first time sailors (Ruth and myself fall in this category). That right there can cause problems. We had sailed our boat with no problem for about 17-18 days before I became aware by talking to someone at a marina that our shrouds were really not tight enough. We had had no problem, but I could see that people new to sailing could make mistakes more often that could result in what you described. In our case there isn't another sailboat within probably a couple hundred miles of us. The internet and experience and some dumb mistakes has been our teacher. Most of you guys don't realize how lucky you are to have the resources you do that are right there for you. Our nearest West Marine is 320 miles. On our 18 day trip on Lake Powell we saw one sailboat and it had its sails down.

To follow up I don't think in the case you are talking about that water ballast had anything to do with it. I'll bet it was a bad rigging situation.

Thanks for mentioning it though,

Sum

Our Trips to Lake Powell, UT - Kootenay Lake, Canada - Priest Lake, ID

Our Mac Pages

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druid

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Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
Water ballast does work but in order to be able to understand it you must 1) understand that water weighs approximately 8.345 lbs per gallon wether it is in air or in water
Nope.

You're confusing weight and mass. Water has a MASS of 8.345 lb/gal (more or less, depending on altitude, temp, dissolved solids and gasses, etc. and using ikky US gals) no matter where it is. But it's WEIGHT (ie the downward force it exerts) depends on the medium it's in. Take that bucket of water, put it on a scale underwater, and it will weigh slightly less than the "empty" (actually filled with air) bucked does in air.

EDIT: actually, I stand, corrected. The water will still exert a downward force of 8.whatever, but the water surrounding it will exert an equal and opposite force upwards. Same concept as what makes an airplane fly (or a closer analogy would be a hot-air balloon)

It will also have the same MASS, but different WEIGHT on the moon.

druid
 
Jul 5, 2007
196
Kenner Privateer 26 schooner, Carlyle Illinois
Sumner said...."You said "motor sailer". Do you know if it was a MacGregor 26 X or M the only two Mac models that are motor sailers, the S and D aren't. Could it have been a Hunter? The guys on the X and M forum haven't said anything about that incident that I remember."

One of the boats was a Mac with a 50hp outboard. The other was at a different marina, and was "one of those new 26' motorsailers". I also heard from a secondhand source, that it was the second time the Mac 26 had lost it's rig. I've met the owner of the Mac, and I think that HE knows better than to sail with a loose rig, or too little water in the tanks.

Maybe that big, flat hull has something to do with it.
 
Oct 18, 2007
707
Macgregor 26S Lucama, NC
Since water ballast doesn't work, I wonder what made those two motor sailers snap back upright after being knocked down. Perhaps Poseidon jumped up on the daggerboard to stand them back up.... -Paul
 

druid

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Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
I'VE GOT IT! :D (Thanks to my physics prof that said everything can be explained with Free Body Diagrams)

My "problem" was that the water does not exert a downward force - it's "weight" is countered by it's buoyancy. Check this FBD:


The two forces cancel - there's no downward force to provide righting moment. But in THIS FBD:


you can see that the boat's weight exerts a righting moment, and increasing that force will increase the righting moment. (I didn't show the vertical components of Fw and Fk since they're constant and don't affect this discussion)

I was thinking really we should be using distributed-force analysis on this when it hit me: Yes, Fg from the first diagram has been added to Fg in the second, BUT Fh IS ALSO ADDED TO Fb! It seemed wierd cuz Fh seems to move horizontally, but that's because the force is actually distributed.

SO: as long as Fb moves outward when the boat heels, there is a righting moment from the weight of the boat (as long as it does not move outward as well!), and that moment is increased if you increase the weight, such as with water ballast. One thing this means is that water ballast should be used on boats with wide, flat cross-sections.

There are TWO types of righting moments given by a keel: the one described above, and the more classical one where the keel is a moment arm. Consider the hypothetical spherical boat (ok, lets make it cylindrical: I had to say it cuz there's a Really Bad Physics joke about a spherical chicken...). In that, the Fb does NOT move horizontally when the boat heels. Now, put a bulb on the bottom of the keel. Fill it with air, and it contributes NEGATIVE righting moment. With lead, POSITIVE righting moment. With water, NOTHING, since there is no net downward force. Fortunately, there are no boats build with cylindrical cross-section and water-filled bulb keels ;)

druid
 
Oct 18, 2007
707
Macgregor 26S Lucama, NC
Good job, Druid, we're getting there now. In your 1st FBD, Fh is actually Fb, the bouyant force, and it is equal and opposite to Fg, the force of gravity acting on the boat and everything in it, including the ballast. In your 2nd FBD, Fh is not added to Fb, it is Fb, and it is still equal to and opposite Fg, since the boat does not move up or down vertically. Fb is displaced horizontally because the boat is heeled, and the portion of the hull in the water (and supporting Fg) has a different shape. However, Fg is still the weight of the boat and ballast (and anything else that is in it) and Fg still acts through the center of gravity of the boat/ballast/contents. The righting moment is the product of the horizontal distance between the lines of action of Fb and Fg multiplied by one of the forces (either one, since Fb = Fg), just as you show. Since the weight of the ballast (doesn't matter if it is water or lead) is a part of Fg, then the righting moment is dependent on the weight of the ballast.

For an example , look at a MacGregor 26 S or D. Boat dry weight is about 1700 lbs; ballast is 1200 lbs. About 12/29 (~41%) of the righting moment is due to the ballast.

Long road here, lots of arguments. Hope this helps. -Paul
 
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druid

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Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
Good job, Druid, we're getting there now. In your 1st FBD, Fh is actually Fb, the bouyant force, and it is equal and opposite to Fg, the force of gravity acting on the boat and everything in it, including the ballast.l
Nope. Sorry if I didn't make it clear: the first FBD is of the BALLAST TANK, not the whole boat. It shows that if the tank is underwater, there is no force from the rest of the hull on the ballast tank.

That's what FBD's are all about - detaching things and looking at them in isolation to examine the forces on them.

But it HAS been fun, hasn't it? :D

druid
 

Benny

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Sep 27, 2008
1,149
Hunter 320 Tampa, FL
What are the usual dimensions of the ballast tank on the h260? In order to get 2000 lbs of water you need a tank capacity of 240 gallons or 32 cubic feet. It would seem to me that the best tank design would be rectangular in shape concentrating the most weight along the centerline. If you can make the tank 2 ft deep the surface area of the bottom of the tank would be 16 square ft or 192 square inches. This would place a downward force of 10.41 pounds per square inch under the tank. The downward force exerted by the rest of the hull is in the range of 2 pounds per square inch. It is that weight concentration and differential that provides the righting force. Knowing the actual dimensions of the tank would allow for actual calculations.
 
Jun 7, 2007
875
Pearson- 323- Mobile,Al
A floating boat is weightless!!! The boat is a unit. The advantage or lead in an external keel is that the righting arm is longer when the boat heels. Even a water filled keel will exert a righting force because the amount of boat underwater stays constant because of displacement. The boat must always displace the same amount of water to float.
 
Oct 18, 2007
707
Macgregor 26S Lucama, NC
Benny - (16 sq. ft)x(144 sq. in./sq.ft) = 2304 sq. in. This will produce a PRESSURE of ~.87 psi on the bottom of the tank. The pressure exerted by the boat hull on the water surrounding it (which is equal and opposite to the pressure exerted by the water on the hull) will vary linearly from zero at the surface to (.4333psi/ft) x (depth of the water in feet at whatever point you want to measure it).

If your 32 cu. ft. tank is 16 feet long and 2 feet high, it would be 1 foot wide. Its center of gravity would be in the center of the cross-section, 1 ft from the tank bottom. If you lay your tank on its side, so that it is 2 ft wide and 1 ft high, its center of gravity will be still in the center of the cross-section, which is now only 6 inches above the tank bottom. The lower the ballast weight is, the stronger the righting moment- which is why ballast tanks are wide and shallow, rather than narrow and tall. -Paul
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
A floating boat is weightless!!!
As confusing as these issues tend to get to all of us at some point; I don't think that statement is correct.

Neither negatively buoyant (sinking) nor positively buoyant (floating) objects are weightless; only neutrally buoyant (sometimes called "hovering"). In fact, when NASA wants to simulate weightlessness they do so in their enormous Neutral Buoyancy Laboratory.

Since "weight" is a measurement value under a particular condition (as opposed to "mass" as an intrinsic property) and no physical measurement can be made without perturbing the system slightly, the weight of a floating boat becomes immediately apparent when using an old-fashioned spring balance underneath the keel and trying to lift it up to the point where it can do its job (i.e. measure weight by compressing the spring).

If, on the other hand, the object to be weighed is neutrally buoyant and hovering in a fully submerged position the slightest spring pressure from below will simply move the object up and when the whole system (object plus balance) is fully equilibrated the weight reading will still be zero.

Have fun,

Flying Dutchman
 
May 16, 2007
1,509
Boatless ! 26 Ottawa, Ontario
I sailed a Mac 26S for a number of years and now have a Hunter 260. I know this thread is about waterballast but I think the hull shape that works best for water ballast also provides a lot of form stability. The result is a boat that performs much better than might be expected by just one of these factors alone. In fact when I have taken keel boat sailors out for their first sail on one of my WB boats all were very surprised that these boats pretty much "feel" like the keel boats that they normally sailed. These keel boats are sailed in a river so are all shoal draft boats, and I think that maybe why they felt they were so close in there behaviour. Also they were surprised how well the WB boats sailed after hearing the mantra so often repeated by the uninformed about how poorly a waterballast boat sails.

Bob
 
Aug 11, 2006
1,446
Hunter H260 Traverse City
The discussion regarding the shape of the ballast tank is very interesting. It answers a question I've had for some time. The deck of the cabin is the top of the tank. So my guess is the tank is about 5 or 6 feet long, 5 foot at its widest point and about 18" at it's deepest point. I always wondered how you could get 240 gallons of water in that space, but now it's easier to understand how the 2000lbs trapped in that long, wide and shallow space acts as ballast. Simple but elegant.

Here's a couple of pictures of the tank being assembled at the factory.

Comments are welcome.
 

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Nov 25, 2009
3
MacGregor 26M Caseville, MI
Hehe, fun thread.

There's an episode of Gilligan's island where Gilligan decides to take matters into his own hands and builds himself a set of large bird wings out of feathers found on the beach. The skipper catches him flapping and hovering 15 ft. or so in the air - before declaring "Gilligan!! you can't fly!!"...(Gilligan) "I can't??"...(Skipper) "No!!!".......Not one to defy physics, Gilligan promptly plummets to the ground.

There are thousands of water-ballasted boats sailing every day including my 26M (which sails just fine on Lake Huron). There is a video of an M sailing in 12-15 foot waves in gale-force winds on the MacGregor website. The stability looks just fine.

But can all of this be? What about the "physics"? Dang, I just heard my boat sink.

Something's up - so let's take keel boat and slowly make a Mac....

Start with a keel-ballasted boat. Lead keel, heavy construction, lot's of nice woodwork, D/L of say 200. One myth about this boat is that the VCG (vertical center of gravity) is very, very low...as in below the COB (center of boyancy). That might actually be true in a IOR racer, but not in a typical performance cruising boat. All of the extra weight above the waterline raises the VCG well above the top of the keel. Still, it's reasonably low. Why doesn't it fall over, though? Why doesn't a row-boat fall over, for that matter?

The answer is hull-form. The row-boat's an easy one - the COB shifts so wildly with heeling that boat is said to have "feet". Even our keelboat has "feet" - it's just (usually) an elliptic shape, but the COB still shifts, such that the VCG needs to lift upward as the boat heels. Nature couldn't care less what's causing the VCG to be where it is, whether it be lead, iron, or whatever. That being said, there are a couple of things that do also factor in....1.) boat's that are more massive react less quickly to wind and waves because they have more intertia (that's a good thing), and 2.) if the overall boat is made out of heavy materials, you're gonna have to use lead, or iron - or something good-and-dense - in the bottom, in order to get the VCG respectably low. There's no getting around that.

If we take our keelboat and replace the lead with water, we have - well - a piece of crap. The VCG is probably now about 5 feet above the waterline and our vanishing stability around 60 degrees - (the amount of heel where it tips over). We could do a little better by using a lot more water - putting it in the bottom of the hull instead of our keel - maybe 20 times the volume of water that one could put in a keel. So we scrap the keel altogether and put the water in tanks in the bottom of the hull. FWIW - we'll use a righting-neutral center/daggerboard for sailing off and into the wind.

At this point, forget all of the smoke-and-mirrors about water-floating-in-water, bla bla bla. The water outside the boat does not analyze the contents of a floating container - it reacts to overall density, intertia, gravity-center, and container-form (COB).

Still, so far we're not doing very well with our water-ballasted boat. The VCG is too high for the hull-form. There are only two things left that we can do to make this a decent sailing boat. 1.) Lighten-it-up above the water-line and 2.) Reduce the dead-rise (i.e. flatten the hull-bottom, giving us a bit more "feet").

That's exactly what Roger MacGregor did. He retained a fairly large amount of fiberglass lay-up in the hull-bottom and filled it with ~1500 lbs of water (and some lead). He made the: topsides very thin, the deck of minimal thickness, interior furninshings scantily-clad, and topped it off with a light rig (but one that is still fairly decent for a boat with a 4000 lb displacement). BTW - People often think that the entire hull is as thin as the topsides - it's not. Like I say, the bottom is reasonably thick and heavy. FWIW - If I had to hit a rock, I'd rather it be a lightweight boat with a thick heavy bottom.

So in the end our new boat is lightweight for sure, has no keel, uses water-ballast - but - the VCG is back to a very decent position for sailing - one that gives a righting profile that's not that far out-of-line with other boats of the same displacement (watch Roger's video again). Three things are a bit different though - just so you don't get the idea that I think this boat is "all that".

1.) The Mac's are lightly rigged and really don't belong out in the conditions that you see on Roger's video (that's why it does 20MPH with the engine).
2.) The boat has a lower D/L (about 145), so again, not a bluewater boat - something that all (but a very few) owners get.
3.) The boat is slightly flatter in hull-form (dead-rise), so it's more tender in heavier waves - again, no big deal if you treat the weather with respect.

My M sails just fine - not quite as fast as some boats, faster than others. Either way, when I'm sailing, I'm not in a hurry anyway. :)

Happy sailing,

~Bob

On edit: I reponded to the thread before reading all of the posts :p Looks like I was a little late to make a difference :) The arguments over water-ballast have come up so many times - bit it's always interesting :)
 

druid

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Apr 22, 2009
837
Ontario 32 Pender Harbour
Heh heh - I used to do trampoline on the foredeck of my Venture (Mac) 22 - I can certify that the topsides of Mac's are definitely "light" ;)

You noticed my conclusion: that in order for water-ballast to work, the hull has to be wide and flat - which is fine for ultralight sleds who do 24 knots under spinnaker, but a narrower "hourglass" cross-section is better to slice through waves upwind. (which is one reason my Crown 28 flies by Mac 26's under sail... ;) )

Note also that when things get REALLY interesting (over 45 degrees), the moving-Fb-style righting moment begins to get LESS (not zero), while the more classical keel-based righting moment gets stonger.

druid
 
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