Warship Collides With Sailboat, Sinking Her
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Rick Webb
The Skipper Never Learned the Big Boat Rule
Think he understands it pretty good now. Glad everyone is OK.
Think he understands it pretty good now. Glad everyone is OK.
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Alan
RULE # 1
"Gross tonage rule".. Never play chicken with a bigger vessel than yours!! This just goes to show the need for licensing of boaters. I hate the idea of more government intervention but lets face it, there are a lot of people out there in boats that have no clue what the hell they are doing!!
"Gross tonage rule".. Never play chicken with a bigger vessel than yours!! This just goes to show the need for licensing of boaters. I hate the idea of more government intervention but lets face it, there are a lot of people out there in boats that have no clue what the hell they are doing!!
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Rick Webb
Here We Go Again
I am not sure how a license in his back pocket would have stopped the skipper from doing something so stupid.
I am not sure how a license in his back pocket would have stopped the skipper from doing something so stupid.
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alan
Saw this thread on another forum and...
...what we really need to know is what were the ships actions before the collision. If he allowed himself to get that close to those vessels, he made a big mistake. I would venture that he misjudged the speed of the larger vessels (seem much slower than they are), misjudged badly the wind and water effects of vessels that size have on smaller boats and as was pointed out to me, didn't take the peculiar effects on the wind that area of land has. Perhaps, as was also mentioned by others, he broached after comming too close anyway. He crossed what seems to be a narrow channel and therefore normally has no rights, that is he is the give-way vessel. Again I would like to know what type of evasive action was taken by the naval ships and when. alan Not fair Rick to sneak a post in as I was typing! The "Rule of Tonnage" or "Big Boat Rule" that we all jokingly refer to, is more than just good sense. It is somewhat part of the nav. rules as these boats are the ones constrained by their draft and less manuverable. The driver's license thing, well I am sort of on the fence. Mandatory education does not garantee use of gray matter, just that it's available for processing if the owner chooses to use it. alan
...what we really need to know is what were the ships actions before the collision. If he allowed himself to get that close to those vessels, he made a big mistake. I would venture that he misjudged the speed of the larger vessels (seem much slower than they are), misjudged badly the wind and water effects of vessels that size have on smaller boats and as was pointed out to me, didn't take the peculiar effects on the wind that area of land has. Perhaps, as was also mentioned by others, he broached after comming too close anyway. He crossed what seems to be a narrow channel and therefore normally has no rights, that is he is the give-way vessel. Again I would like to know what type of evasive action was taken by the naval ships and when. alan Not fair Rick to sneak a post in as I was typing! The "Rule of Tonnage" or "Big Boat Rule" that we all jokingly refer to, is more than just good sense. It is somewhat part of the nav. rules as these boats are the ones constrained by their draft and less manuverable. The driver's license thing, well I am sort of on the fence. Mandatory education does not garantee use of gray matter, just that it's available for processing if the owner chooses to use it. alan
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Augie Byllott
Ramming a warship
From the picture and the narrative, can it possible that he thought he was the stand on vessel and the warship was the burdened vessel? Else, is it possible that a Greenpeacer, having missed the first time, quickly reversed course and successfully rammed that damned symbol of ecological decadence? Or, does he just have a death wish? From time to time I find myself cringing as I watch some clown insisting on his non-existent "right of way" risk a collision. In addition to ignorance, there seems to be a decided lack of civility on the water. Are we out there for a little enjoyment, or to show off. If this guy pulls a stunt like this again, his tombstone may read: Here lies Walter O'Day. He thought he had the right of way. The important thing he may have forgotten, Is what they teach in sailor's kindergarten. "Better to be a live chicken than a dead duck."
From the picture and the narrative, can it possible that he thought he was the stand on vessel and the warship was the burdened vessel? Else, is it possible that a Greenpeacer, having missed the first time, quickly reversed course and successfully rammed that damned symbol of ecological decadence? Or, does he just have a death wish? From time to time I find myself cringing as I watch some clown insisting on his non-existent "right of way" risk a collision. In addition to ignorance, there seems to be a decided lack of civility on the water. Are we out there for a little enjoyment, or to show off. If this guy pulls a stunt like this again, his tombstone may read: Here lies Walter O'Day. He thought he had the right of way. The important thing he may have forgotten, Is what they teach in sailor's kindergarten. "Better to be a live chicken than a dead duck."
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Michael O'
Idiot in the News
That area, the San Diego Bay, is our "new home", and if you don't keep an eye out for the Navy while in AND out of the Bay, you'll be in for some exciting times! When we arrived outside the Bay sailing from Catalina we were passed by a sub, and "surrounded" by a frigate on collision path to windward and a destroyer to leeward. But we were a mile away from the closest one and kept it that way! Yeah, we thought we could clear the frigate (our boat's name BTW, is "Frigate"!) but saw it increasing speed after picking up a helicopter, so we tacked over and went waaay behind him. Same for staying clear of all the ships in the Bay, most of which we have to sail past to get from our marina to the north end of the Bay - we keep at least 200 yards off. So, do we err on conservatism? Dang right! Was this guy an idiot? Yep! Do you think he'd be a better / smarter sailor if he had a license? (Like all those great drivers on the highway?) Hmmmph!! Michael O'
That area, the San Diego Bay, is our "new home", and if you don't keep an eye out for the Navy while in AND out of the Bay, you'll be in for some exciting times! When we arrived outside the Bay sailing from Catalina we were passed by a sub, and "surrounded" by a frigate on collision path to windward and a destroyer to leeward. But we were a mile away from the closest one and kept it that way! Yeah, we thought we could clear the frigate (our boat's name BTW, is "Frigate"!) but saw it increasing speed after picking up a helicopter, so we tacked over and went waaay behind him. Same for staying clear of all the ships in the Bay, most of which we have to sail past to get from our marina to the north end of the Bay - we keep at least 200 yards off. So, do we err on conservatism? Dang right! Was this guy an idiot? Yep! Do you think he'd be a better / smarter sailor if he had a license? (Like all those great drivers on the highway?) Hmmmph!! Michael O'
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73mensailed Mac26s
Guess he forgot the "Look Around" rule too!!
We love San Diego. We were just there in June for 3 days of sailing. When we were there a Navy LST came in while we were just south of the Harbor Island. We gave it a wide berth. Why not? I saw it coming in from a mile out. Plenty of time for smart decisions. It's a busy place. You stay alert when driving your car at rush hour. Why don't some do it when they get on the water? BTW, Has any got a link to the boat owners explanation? Like to hear his side. Was the dog interviewed? I love my boat and would hate to think that part of my tax dollars went into sinking him.
We love San Diego. We were just there in June for 3 days of sailing. When we were there a Navy LST came in while we were just south of the Harbor Island. We gave it a wide berth. Why not? I saw it coming in from a mile out. Plenty of time for smart decisions. It's a busy place. You stay alert when driving your car at rush hour. Why don't some do it when they get on the water? BTW, Has any got a link to the boat owners explanation? Like to hear his side. Was the dog interviewed? I love my boat and would hate to think that part of my tax dollars went into sinking him.
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Mike I.
Morons abound
I sail a lot in Los Angeles Harbor and can attest to the dangers of sailing around LARGE ships. Is the USN any different than a large commercial carrier? Don't think so; with size comes arrogance! Having said that, I don't think there is any reason for a collision unless both vessels are on tracks and can't maneuver. I've had to do some quick tiller work to avoid the big guys (tugs, container ships, Pilot boats, fishing boats, and USN vessels), but just consider that a fact of sailing in or around a large port. As for licensing, look at the moron on the freeway at rush hour, talking on the phone, eating a donut, and changing lanes. Or the one trying to do 80 when every one else is going 60. He/she is licensed!
I sail a lot in Los Angeles Harbor and can attest to the dangers of sailing around LARGE ships. Is the USN any different than a large commercial carrier? Don't think so; with size comes arrogance! Having said that, I don't think there is any reason for a collision unless both vessels are on tracks and can't maneuver. I've had to do some quick tiller work to avoid the big guys (tugs, container ships, Pilot boats, fishing boats, and USN vessels), but just consider that a fact of sailing in or around a large port. As for licensing, look at the moron on the freeway at rush hour, talking on the phone, eating a donut, and changing lanes. Or the one trying to do 80 when every one else is going 60. He/she is licensed!
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Ray
Since 9/11
One of the many changes since 9/11 is a greatly increased Coast Guard presence, along with a new Coast Guard regulation making it a felony offense to approach within 100 yards of a U.S. naval vessel or to operate beyond a minimal safe speed within 500 yards. Coast Guard vessels that carefully watch and herd away any others that come too close. “If it’s grey, stay away” is the Coast Guard’s best advice to pleasure craft operators, but if you have any concerns while out on the water, you are welcome to hail either an individual ship or a land-based station on channel 16.
One of the many changes since 9/11 is a greatly increased Coast Guard presence, along with a new Coast Guard regulation making it a felony offense to approach within 100 yards of a U.S. naval vessel or to operate beyond a minimal safe speed within 500 yards. Coast Guard vessels that carefully watch and herd away any others that come too close. “If it’s grey, stay away” is the Coast Guard’s best advice to pleasure craft operators, but if you have any concerns while out on the water, you are welcome to hail either an individual ship or a land-based station on channel 16.
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Alan
It's true..
..that there are a great many idiot drivers out there and there would probably be more if anyone could drive without a license. Boating safety has never been an issue of speeding, at least in a sailboat, and I don't think that talking on a cell phone has cost anyone his/her life. I cringe at the idea of licensing skippers, but how else do you require someone to learn the rules of seamanship before they leave the dock? I'm willing to bet that if every boater was to take a competancy test today, 1/2 would fail! Just look at the results of the 'quizes' that this website posts. And those are only the people who are willing to take the test.
..that there are a great many idiot drivers out there and there would probably be more if anyone could drive without a license. Boating safety has never been an issue of speeding, at least in a sailboat, and I don't think that talking on a cell phone has cost anyone his/her life. I cringe at the idea of licensing skippers, but how else do you require someone to learn the rules of seamanship before they leave the dock? I'm willing to bet that if every boater was to take a competancy test today, 1/2 would fail! Just look at the results of the 'quizes' that this website posts. And those are only the people who are willing to take the test.
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Bob La Salle
Thank God the dog's OK
I have been sailing for 20 years. Once I was entering Baltimore harbor in a 37 foot sailboat with four other people aboard including my wife and my young son. I misjudged the proximity and closing rate of a large freighter that was also entering. I ended up starting the engine quickly and powering my way out of a possible huge disaster, possibly injury or death to my family. It would have been my fault. Fortunately, nothing happened, except I still have nightmares about it 15 years later. What was I thinking? What was this sailboat skipper thinking? I got away with it. This guy didn't. We all make mistakes. Let's not gloat over our successes, let's learn from our mistakes.
I have been sailing for 20 years. Once I was entering Baltimore harbor in a 37 foot sailboat with four other people aboard including my wife and my young son. I misjudged the proximity and closing rate of a large freighter that was also entering. I ended up starting the engine quickly and powering my way out of a possible huge disaster, possibly injury or death to my family. It would have been my fault. Fortunately, nothing happened, except I still have nightmares about it 15 years later. What was I thinking? What was this sailboat skipper thinking? I got away with it. This guy didn't. We all make mistakes. Let's not gloat over our successes, let's learn from our mistakes.
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Jim Quibell
Talking on a cell phone while driving is deadly!!!
Sorry Alan, There are hundreds of deaths being caused by irresponsible drivers talking on their cell phones and not paying 100 percent attention to the task at hand - defensive driving and safety. We recently had a father and his 3 children killed at a railway crossing because the father was too busy talking on his cell phone and didn't notice the flashing lights. Why do you think many states and provinces have legislation in the works to ban cell phone use while driving? Forget the hands free nonsense - you need all your attention on the road. Same goes for safe boating.
Sorry Alan, There are hundreds of deaths being caused by irresponsible drivers talking on their cell phones and not paying 100 percent attention to the task at hand - defensive driving and safety. We recently had a father and his 3 children killed at a railway crossing because the father was too busy talking on his cell phone and didn't notice the flashing lights. Why do you think many states and provinces have legislation in the works to ban cell phone use while driving? Forget the hands free nonsense - you need all your attention on the road. Same goes for safe boating.
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Mike I.
Deadly
In the Los Angeles area recently, a pedestrian was killed when a driver reached for a ringing cell phone a jumped the curb and struck the pedestrian ON THE SIDEWALK! I have to dodge more cell phone drivers on LA freways than freighters or Navy ships in the harbor. Enter "cell phone deaths" in your search window. I found 5 pages related to deaths caused by the use of, or during the use of a cell phone.
In the Los Angeles area recently, a pedestrian was killed when a driver reached for a ringing cell phone a jumped the curb and struck the pedestrian ON THE SIDEWALK! I have to dodge more cell phone drivers on LA freways than freighters or Navy ships in the harbor. Enter "cell phone deaths" in your search window. I found 5 pages related to deaths caused by the use of, or during the use of a cell phone.
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Alan
Not driving
When I mentioned speeding and cell phones I was talking about sailing, absolutly not driving a car. Although talking on a cell phone may be a distraction while sailing, things rarely happen so fast that the skipper cannot do both at the same time. The need for total concentration and instant reaction just is not the same for sailing as it is for driving a car. Sorry for the confusion.
When I mentioned speeding and cell phones I was talking about sailing, absolutly not driving a car. Although talking on a cell phone may be a distraction while sailing, things rarely happen so fast that the skipper cannot do both at the same time. The need for total concentration and instant reaction just is not the same for sailing as it is for driving a car. Sorry for the confusion.
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Pete
sailboat vs. battleship
The fellow in the sailboat should consider himself lucky that the Navy did not sink him with a weapon before letting him to get even close enough to hit the battleship. Did we not learn anything from the USS Cole? What happened to "heightened alert status" ? The sailboat operator should be grateful that the Navy has professional officers and did not rush to judgement.At the very least I hope they charge the sailboat operator with destroying goverment property and at a minimum make him paint the battleship !With a mandatory safe boating course as part of his reperations. I would guess that all the Navy people have a lot of questions to answer and some have most likely will have a record over this incendent if not a retirement. Isn't it great how one person can cause so much havic?
The fellow in the sailboat should consider himself lucky that the Navy did not sink him with a weapon before letting him to get even close enough to hit the battleship. Did we not learn anything from the USS Cole? What happened to "heightened alert status" ? The sailboat operator should be grateful that the Navy has professional officers and did not rush to judgement.At the very least I hope they charge the sailboat operator with destroying goverment property and at a minimum make him paint the battleship !With a mandatory safe boating course as part of his reperations. I would guess that all the Navy people have a lot of questions to answer and some have most likely will have a record over this incendent if not a retirement. Isn't it great how one person can cause so much havic?
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Clyde
Naval Vessel Protection Zone (NVPZ)
The new Homeland security law, Naval Vessel Protection Zone (NVPZ). "Do not approach within 100 yards of any U.S. naval vessel. If you need to pass within 100 yards of a U.S. naval vessel in order to ensure a safe passage in accordance with the Navigation Rules, you must contact the U.S. naval vessel or the Coast Guard escort vessel on VHF-FM channel 16. You must operate at minimum speed within 500 yards of any U.S. naval vessel and proceed as directed by the Commanding Officer or the official patrol. Violations of the Naval Vessel Protection Zone are a felony offense, punishable by up to 6 years in prison and/or up to $250,00 in fines." It wasn't stated in the news article, but I assume that the sailboat was in radio contact with the Navy ship when the sailboat entered the Naval Vessel Protection Zone (NVPZ), since it didn't say he was under arrest after he was rescued from his sinking ship. Whenever you are sailing near the NVPZ of any U.S. naval vessel, always broadcast your intentions to the naval vessel on VHF-FM channel 16 to ensure that there is no misunderstanding. Fair Winds, Clyde
The new Homeland security law, Naval Vessel Protection Zone (NVPZ). "Do not approach within 100 yards of any U.S. naval vessel. If you need to pass within 100 yards of a U.S. naval vessel in order to ensure a safe passage in accordance with the Navigation Rules, you must contact the U.S. naval vessel or the Coast Guard escort vessel on VHF-FM channel 16. You must operate at minimum speed within 500 yards of any U.S. naval vessel and proceed as directed by the Commanding Officer or the official patrol. Violations of the Naval Vessel Protection Zone are a felony offense, punishable by up to 6 years in prison and/or up to $250,00 in fines." It wasn't stated in the news article, but I assume that the sailboat was in radio contact with the Navy ship when the sailboat entered the Naval Vessel Protection Zone (NVPZ), since it didn't say he was under arrest after he was rescued from his sinking ship. Whenever you are sailing near the NVPZ of any U.S. naval vessel, always broadcast your intentions to the naval vessel on VHF-FM channel 16 to ensure that there is no misunderstanding. Fair Winds, Clyde
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cole
the rule!
When does the USCG have the right to make laws or RULES for the boating public? This "rule" went in to effect before the CG was switched to the HLS. I was alway under the impression that the only rules the USCG made was for the USCG. The USCG is an enforcement arm of congress. And I have looked all over the "no float poster" and cant find which law or CFR or USC is violated. But they do include a penalty. I found it funny that the article in the LOG links to the poster. So I included it with this post. Cole Additionally, boaters should be aware that the U.S. Navy and Coast Guard are enforcing security zones around all U.S. Navy vessels. The rule states: “No vessel may come within 100 yards of a U.S. naval vessel, whether the naval vessel is underway or moored. Additionally, vessels must slow to minimum speed necessary to maintain steerage when coming within 500 yards of any U.S. naval vessel.”
When does the USCG have the right to make laws or RULES for the boating public? This "rule" went in to effect before the CG was switched to the HLS. I was alway under the impression that the only rules the USCG made was for the USCG. The USCG is an enforcement arm of congress. And I have looked all over the "no float poster" and cant find which law or CFR or USC is violated. But they do include a penalty. I found it funny that the article in the LOG links to the poster. So I included it with this post. Cole Additionally, boaters should be aware that the U.S. Navy and Coast Guard are enforcing security zones around all U.S. Navy vessels. The rule states: “No vessel may come within 100 yards of a U.S. naval vessel, whether the naval vessel is underway or moored. Additionally, vessels must slow to minimum speed necessary to maintain steerage when coming within 500 yards of any U.S. naval vessel.”
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Dale I
Kinda sounds like a real life version of "frogger"
...if you can remember video games that far back.. Glad the dog made it as maybe the only lesson he might have learned was to NOT sail with his master again.
...if you can remember video games that far back.. Glad the dog made it as maybe the only lesson he might have learned was to NOT sail with his master again.
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Tim Donley
General comments
My brother a cat fancier, one time said "Cats don't eat any thing bigger than their head" good advice. The only thing we could gain from licensing is that in cars we at least know the rules of the road,traffic lights ,stop signs, drive on the right, what the lights and signals on our cars mean. One problem with licensing are the mass production boatbuilders fight against it every time. The corporate structure can't afford for the dealer network to lose any sales nor can the dealer who has all the product forced on him from the manufacture afford to lose a sale responsibly. At one of the local marinas I overheard a salesman (new topsiders and the latest fishing shirt) state to a prospective customer"Yep, ya gotta' pretty much keep this size boat between the markers out there".(I think he was a mutated powerbote version of Capt'n Ron) I venture to say you could stump this gent by asking him to explain D.R. I heard of these guys try to use Texaco roadmaps and GPS to navigate. The licensing should extend to used car salesmen supplemnting their income selling boats as well. Anyone of any age can drive a car. Are they capable to drive responsiby? No! Education does not have to be the death of boating, it certianly did not slow the automoble. I think the Insurace companies hold the card for this play. If you buy a boat and can't insure it for the lenders interest with out licensing on your part ,you will get certified or licensed if you are serious to get on the water. Monitor the VHF on a typical week-end and it sounds like a CB radio, to bad they dropped the radio license requriment. OK ,I'm done bitchin' bout something I have no control of. I hope a few of you find something to agree with ,I think we all agree in this case God does protect fools. See Ya out there, Tim
My brother a cat fancier, one time said "Cats don't eat any thing bigger than their head" good advice. The only thing we could gain from licensing is that in cars we at least know the rules of the road,traffic lights ,stop signs, drive on the right, what the lights and signals on our cars mean. One problem with licensing are the mass production boatbuilders fight against it every time. The corporate structure can't afford for the dealer network to lose any sales nor can the dealer who has all the product forced on him from the manufacture afford to lose a sale responsibly. At one of the local marinas I overheard a salesman (new topsiders and the latest fishing shirt) state to a prospective customer"Yep, ya gotta' pretty much keep this size boat between the markers out there".(I think he was a mutated powerbote version of Capt'n Ron) I venture to say you could stump this gent by asking him to explain D.R. I heard of these guys try to use Texaco roadmaps and GPS to navigate. The licensing should extend to used car salesmen supplemnting their income selling boats as well. Anyone of any age can drive a car. Are they capable to drive responsiby? No! Education does not have to be the death of boating, it certianly did not slow the automoble. I think the Insurace companies hold the card for this play. If you buy a boat and can't insure it for the lenders interest with out licensing on your part ,you will get certified or licensed if you are serious to get on the water. Monitor the VHF on a typical week-end and it sounds like a CB radio, to bad they dropped the radio license requriment. OK ,I'm done bitchin' bout something I have no control of. I hope a few of you find something to agree with ,I think we all agree in this case God does protect fools. See Ya out there, Tim
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