I have been boating all my life (powerboats) and have been interested in sail boats for some time. I have been looking at the ads around my area and have seen some boats for sail but the bottom line is I have no clue what to look for and what kind of boat is good for a new sailor. My wife and I are not sure what boats to even begin to look at/for. Then the next question is once we find something, how do we learn the correct way to sail. Should we just stick to powerboats or is it possible to enter the sailing world?? Captain Clueless
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Capt. My first question is : can you be content
with sitting in a boat going 5 knots or less? A day in a sail boat will give you a chance to watch the water, the birds, and the powerboaters. You already have boat handling experience so all you need now is to find someone with a sail boat to show you the wonderfulness of sailing.
with sitting in a boat going 5 knots or less? A day in a sail boat will give you a chance to watch the water, the birds, and the powerboaters. You already have boat handling experience so all you need now is to find someone with a sail boat to show you the wonderfulness of sailing.
best newbie sailor I ever had
The guy next to me had a powerboat named Wet Dreams. Three 454's or something or other. Went about 80 mph. Anyway, he got his son one day and the lake was to big for his boat, so he asked if he could come out sailing with me. Of all the newbies (we call them virgins) I had on board, he picked it up in seconds. He didn't know a thing about sail handling but with one description of what they did, the venturi principle, etc., he sailed like a pro. My experience was to buy a 12'er at age 50 and sail on a river. I got my rowing in and sailing. The boat was a Penguin, built in 1964. Great little boat, but don't tip it over! The little boats give you the real feel for the sail experience. I highly recommend it for a while. As for a big boat, if you are only going to do day sailing, or coastal, then get a 27 to 30 footer. They are cheap to buy and maintain, and a ball to sail on. Heck, any boat is a ball to sail on. But as they boats get bigger, it becomes something akin to driving a bus (did it for a year, cross country) instead of a car.
The guy next to me had a powerboat named Wet Dreams. Three 454's or something or other. Went about 80 mph. Anyway, he got his son one day and the lake was to big for his boat, so he asked if he could come out sailing with me. Of all the newbies (we call them virgins) I had on board, he picked it up in seconds. He didn't know a thing about sail handling but with one description of what they did, the venturi principle, etc., he sailed like a pro. My experience was to buy a 12'er at age 50 and sail on a river. I got my rowing in and sailing. The boat was a Penguin, built in 1964. Great little boat, but don't tip it over! The little boats give you the real feel for the sail experience. I highly recommend it for a while. As for a big boat, if you are only going to do day sailing, or coastal, then get a 27 to 30 footer. They are cheap to buy and maintain, and a ball to sail on. Heck, any boat is a ball to sail on. But as they boats get bigger, it becomes something akin to driving a bus (did it for a year, cross country) instead of a car.
We would love to have you
The easy way to get into sailing is to find sailor and have them train you. You can also take a class or two. The best thing about sailing is you can boat all day and not spend anything on fuel!
The easy way to get into sailing is to find sailor and have them train you. You can also take a class or two. The best thing about sailing is you can boat all day and not spend anything on fuel!
Many boaters make the switch
Our marine operators love to talk about the powerboaters that make the switch - Last summer one guy bought a Hunter 37 - took a weeks worth of private lessons - then headed up for a two week vaction in Georgian Bay's North Channel - Personally I wouldn't recommend this approach I assume you've at least spent a couple of afternoons sailing with someone. If not, this should be your first priority. There must be someone around your current marina that would be receptive to exchanging an afternoon's outing for a bottle of wine and some smoked salmon, and whatever else you might enjoy! Now back to your question - What boat? - I'd suggest something that is readily resaleable if you need to bail out after a summer or two. Many brokers would suggest that something in the mid 30' range,and only a few years old. If that fits the budget, then look for a boat that has been used the way you intend to use it. If your looking to day sail - many of the boats around Grosse Point and St Clair Shores have just been used for day trips and are not loaded up with a lot of equipment that a "weekend warrior" might require. On the other hand if you do plan to overnite out to the islands etc. try finding a boat that has been used that way as it will likely have better batteries, inverter, canvas enclosures etc. As for a specific suggestion - Maybe a 1999 - 2002 Catalina 320 for about 80- 90,000US Good versions of these boats seem to sell like hotcakes. As for your second question - How to learn to sail? - my suggestion would be to take lessons, and offer to crew on someone elses boat for something like "wednesday nite races" - I can't imagine a better method than being out with 4 or 5 other guys for two or three hours in an evening - all trying to make the boat go faster>
Our marine operators love to talk about the powerboaters that make the switch - Last summer one guy bought a Hunter 37 - took a weeks worth of private lessons - then headed up for a two week vaction in Georgian Bay's North Channel - Personally I wouldn't recommend this approach I assume you've at least spent a couple of afternoons sailing with someone. If not, this should be your first priority. There must be someone around your current marina that would be receptive to exchanging an afternoon's outing for a bottle of wine and some smoked salmon, and whatever else you might enjoy! Now back to your question - What boat? - I'd suggest something that is readily resaleable if you need to bail out after a summer or two. Many brokers would suggest that something in the mid 30' range,and only a few years old. If that fits the budget, then look for a boat that has been used the way you intend to use it. If your looking to day sail - many of the boats around Grosse Point and St Clair Shores have just been used for day trips and are not loaded up with a lot of equipment that a "weekend warrior" might require. On the other hand if you do plan to overnite out to the islands etc. try finding a boat that has been used that way as it will likely have better batteries, inverter, canvas enclosures etc. As for a specific suggestion - Maybe a 1999 - 2002 Catalina 320 for about 80- 90,000US Good versions of these boats seem to sell like hotcakes. As for your second question - How to learn to sail? - my suggestion would be to take lessons, and offer to crew on someone elses boat for something like "wednesday nite races" - I can't imagine a better method than being out with 4 or 5 other guys for two or three hours in an evening - all trying to make the boat go faster>
Set priorities
Decide what you want from a sailboat. 1. How much money can you afford to spend? 2. Will it be a day sailor or over night/weekend cruiser? 3. Do you plan to dock or trailer? I started sailing with no experience at all. I got the itch, bought a book and a 14 foot day sailor & trailer at age 28. The boat had no motor, just oars. That summer I learned how to sail via trail & error. The following year I bought a 21 footer, a couple of years later I bought another 21 footer and then I moved on to my Catalina 30. My advice is the same a mentioned here already, go to the local yacht club, talk, see if you can either crew or go for a day sail. Most sailors are very forthcoming. Buy a good "how to sail" book, get familiar with the terms and hardware on a small boat (it's all the same). Good luck!
Decide what you want from a sailboat. 1. How much money can you afford to spend? 2. Will it be a day sailor or over night/weekend cruiser? 3. Do you plan to dock or trailer? I started sailing with no experience at all. I got the itch, bought a book and a 14 foot day sailor & trailer at age 28. The boat had no motor, just oars. That summer I learned how to sail via trail & error. The following year I bought a 21 footer, a couple of years later I bought another 21 footer and then I moved on to my Catalina 30. My advice is the same a mentioned here already, go to the local yacht club, talk, see if you can either crew or go for a day sail. Most sailors are very forthcoming. Buy a good "how to sail" book, get familiar with the terms and hardware on a small boat (it's all the same). Good luck!
you can do it
Just DO it! My first sail was at a lake resort in Germany a long time ago - it cost 25 cents to rent an old worn-out catboat (16') for a day. I figured if others could do it, so could I (this thinking only works in mild weather). Didn't take too long to realize it's lots easier to make the boat go downwind than it is to make it go upwind. The magic in sailing is the ambience - the sounds, rhythms, and harmony with your surroundings. There's no magic in making the boat go (unless you're one of the REALLY good raceboat skippers), just knowledge and skill that you start accumulating on day one and never totally master - that's part of what draws you back to the boat the next time. It would be hard to go wrong with a Catalina 22 - it's small enough to handle easily and to singlehand within a relatively short time, it's trailerable so you can try it on various bodies of water and bring it home in the off season, it's stable and safe but still performs decently, it is/was such a popular design that you can find them all over the place at reasonable prices, and best of all you can sell it for about the same price when you decide you need more room/performance/seaworthiness.
Just DO it! My first sail was at a lake resort in Germany a long time ago - it cost 25 cents to rent an old worn-out catboat (16') for a day. I figured if others could do it, so could I (this thinking only works in mild weather). Didn't take too long to realize it's lots easier to make the boat go downwind than it is to make it go upwind. The magic in sailing is the ambience - the sounds, rhythms, and harmony with your surroundings. There's no magic in making the boat go (unless you're one of the REALLY good raceboat skippers), just knowledge and skill that you start accumulating on day one and never totally master - that's part of what draws you back to the boat the next time. It would be hard to go wrong with a Catalina 22 - it's small enough to handle easily and to singlehand within a relatively short time, it's trailerable so you can try it on various bodies of water and bring it home in the off season, it's stable and safe but still performs decently, it is/was such a popular design that you can find them all over the place at reasonable prices, and best of all you can sell it for about the same price when you decide you need more room/performance/seaworthiness.
Roos, you have a GREAT point
I was rollor blading on the Hudson River walkway zooming by sailboats that had air. I was saying to myself, I like to do that! You have to give it a try first. I doesn't feel like you going that slow when your on the boat BUT you can't be in a hurry to get somewhere. The Mac 26 X makes an ok motor sailor that can go 22 MPHs. It sails ok but docking is tricky with the big engine wieght on the back. If you have not sailed one than please don't comment on the boat!
I was rollor blading on the Hudson River walkway zooming by sailboats that had air. I was saying to myself, I like to do that! You have to give it a try first. I doesn't feel like you going that slow when your on the boat BUT you can't be in a hurry to get somewhere. The Mac 26 X makes an ok motor sailor that can go 22 MPHs. It sails ok but docking is tricky with the big engine wieght on the back. If you have not sailed one than please don't comment on the boat!
Correct way to Sail???
The correct way to sail is when you are having fun and generally going the way you want to go. Read the fundamentals and then go sailing. If you load up too much starting out it isn't fun. Over time you will get better at sail triming. But seriuosly consider if you will be happy sailing before you buy!!!! You can go sailing almost anytime...but some days that is about the only place you can go. Trying to sail in light and varible winds can be extremely frustrating. It takes a certain type of person to enjoy getting around by wind power. I have only been sailing a little over 30 years and have been known to curse the wind loudly and frequently. Too many times I have had the wind on my nose both coming and going. Too many times I have planned my tacking strategy and had the wind change direction taking away an hour's worth of sailing progress. But I take a kind of perverse pleasure in going slowly in the wrong direction despite great effort. You have to be a little weird to be a happy sailer. Maybe the frustration and aggravation of fighting a contrary current with a light and varible breeze is what makes a strong breeze blowing in the right direction such a sublime delight...however short lived. It is kinda like fishing all day for a fish that you throw back. Or gambling??? You never know when you are going to have that perfect experience. But when you have the correct amount of heel from the wind coming from the correct direction with the correct sail trim all is right with the world.
The correct way to sail is when you are having fun and generally going the way you want to go. Read the fundamentals and then go sailing. If you load up too much starting out it isn't fun. Over time you will get better at sail triming. But seriuosly consider if you will be happy sailing before you buy!!!! You can go sailing almost anytime...but some days that is about the only place you can go. Trying to sail in light and varible winds can be extremely frustrating. It takes a certain type of person to enjoy getting around by wind power. I have only been sailing a little over 30 years and have been known to curse the wind loudly and frequently. Too many times I have had the wind on my nose both coming and going. Too many times I have planned my tacking strategy and had the wind change direction taking away an hour's worth of sailing progress. But I take a kind of perverse pleasure in going slowly in the wrong direction despite great effort. You have to be a little weird to be a happy sailer. Maybe the frustration and aggravation of fighting a contrary current with a light and varible breeze is what makes a strong breeze blowing in the right direction such a sublime delight...however short lived. It is kinda like fishing all day for a fish that you throw back. Or gambling??? You never know when you are going to have that perfect experience. But when you have the correct amount of heel from the wind coming from the correct direction with the correct sail trim all is right with the world.
I agree with Brian
Although I sailed windsufers and Lasers for several years, I gained the most knowledge several years back ( in my 30's) at "wednesday night" club races on a CS33 with a friend. We raced spinnaker class, you sure learn quickly how to handle the sails and boat, quickly raising and lowering a spinnaker 2 times a race. Now, several years later we just bought our first boat a Hunter 33. Brian, are you in BayPort? I noticed in their web cam they are starting to splash the boats.
Although I sailed windsufers and Lasers for several years, I gained the most knowledge several years back ( in my 30's) at "wednesday night" club races on a CS33 with a friend. We raced spinnaker class, you sure learn quickly how to handle the sails and boat, quickly raising and lowering a spinnaker 2 times a race. Now, several years later we just bought our first boat a Hunter 33. Brian, are you in BayPort? I noticed in their web cam they are starting to splash the boats.
Local Colleges
Also check at some of your local colleges. We have several in our area that offer non-credit sailing courses which typically include 6 sessions onthe water. A great and inexpensive way to learn from a professional and not over committing yourself too much. As for making the switch, I've had several powerboaters out on our sailboat, and when the wind kicks up, they are usually clueless to how fast/slow we are going. the feel when the wind fills the sails and the boat takes off is undescribable and youy feel like you are flying, although you might only be doing 7 knots. But as others said, if you are in a hurry to get from point A to point B, a sailboat might not be your best choice. The Macs are ok (I've sailed one several times), and are a decent compromise for those that just have to get someone fast. Me personally, I like cruising along at 6 knots with the engine off.
Also check at some of your local colleges. We have several in our area that offer non-credit sailing courses which typically include 6 sessions onthe water. A great and inexpensive way to learn from a professional and not over committing yourself too much. As for making the switch, I've had several powerboaters out on our sailboat, and when the wind kicks up, they are usually clueless to how fast/slow we are going. the feel when the wind fills the sails and the boat takes off is undescribable and youy feel like you are flying, although you might only be doing 7 knots. But as others said, if you are in a hurry to get from point A to point B, a sailboat might not be your best choice. The Macs are ok (I've sailed one several times), and are a decent compromise for those that just have to get someone fast. Me personally, I like cruising along at 6 knots with the engine off.
You know already 90% of what you REALLY need !
If you have been powerboating all your life, chances are you have already learned most of what you really need to know to be safe on the water. To prove my point: just see how much emphasis the official Coast Guard license training puts on rules of the road, safety, navigation, weather forecasting, ropework, boat handling, anchoring, etc., versus actual sailing techniques (if you want to add your sailing ticket). My advice is to look around for a first sailboat that has a reliable auxiliary and is not too different in size, stability, comfort, etc. from the powerboats you are most familiar with and start motoring around till you get bored enough to hoist some sail. Then just make sure you do have somebody on board who knows how to sail and is also a good instructor. From there on everything can evolve along natural lines. If things get a bit too hairy; you can always drop the sails and become a powerboat again, for now. Hope your wife and you will have a wonderful time learning to sail and enjoying the special sensation of being able to shut of the noise and smoke for longer and longer periods of time. Got to warn you though, just a few month ago the denizens of this board figured out that our natural progression in life is: sailboat --> motorboat --> motorhome --> nursinghome.... So, you are clearly trying to row against the tide. On the other hand; what can be more exciting than being able to prove just THAT! Have fun! Flying Dutchman
If you have been powerboating all your life, chances are you have already learned most of what you really need to know to be safe on the water. To prove my point: just see how much emphasis the official Coast Guard license training puts on rules of the road, safety, navigation, weather forecasting, ropework, boat handling, anchoring, etc., versus actual sailing techniques (if you want to add your sailing ticket). My advice is to look around for a first sailboat that has a reliable auxiliary and is not too different in size, stability, comfort, etc. from the powerboats you are most familiar with and start motoring around till you get bored enough to hoist some sail. Then just make sure you do have somebody on board who knows how to sail and is also a good instructor. From there on everything can evolve along natural lines. If things get a bit too hairy; you can always drop the sails and become a powerboat again, for now. Hope your wife and you will have a wonderful time learning to sail and enjoying the special sensation of being able to shut of the noise and smoke for longer and longer periods of time. Got to warn you though, just a few month ago the denizens of this board figured out that our natural progression in life is: sailboat --> motorboat --> motorhome --> nursinghome.... So, you are clearly trying to row against the tide. On the other hand; what can be more exciting than being able to prove just THAT! Have fun! Flying Dutchman
Here's a Clue
Clueless, You've received many enthusiastic responses, and a little helpful advice. I'll try to balance the scale, and follow up on what J.S posted. Before you look at boats, you must start with at least a foggy idea of how you want to use the boat: let's say in the next three years. To keep things simple, I'll talk about three broad size/use categories. 1) The daysailer— in the 14–18ft range, this is a light, open boat launced from a trailer. No heavy keel: your bodyweight on the rails is the ballast. The ride can be wet when there is a chop and/or a stiff litle breeze, or you tip it over (almost assumed). Very conveniently pulls behind a car. Little/no storage, and no accommodation for sleeping/eating. Inexpensive to buy/maintain, responsive, a great way to learn to sail; but, many find it limiting after the first season when the skills have been learned and sailors want to go farther afield. Typically is powered by sails/oars. 2) The weekender— typically from 20–24 feet, and with a swing-keel of iron that is pulled up to load on a trailer, lowered when in the water. Typically takes a truck to tow and two adults to rig the mast and riging; some are kept in the water. Has a cabin (in a wide range of sizes) and provides sitting, not standing, headroom. A drier ride than the daysailer, and as the name suggests, can be taken for overnight trips. All have berths to sleep in; most have some kind of galley for food preparation; almost all have toilets of some kind. Think of a camper on the back of a pickup, with all the related simplicity of lifestyle/fun. Usually motors with an outboard. 3) The cruiser/racer— beyond about 26ft, they live in the water. Standing headroom, more comforts of home, running (often heated) water, flushing toilets, multiple-burner stoves/ovens, and all the fancy gizmos you can stuff on it. Think motorhome. There are designs which lend themselves to racing (J Boats, for ex.) with deck layouts/gear choices for maximizing boatspeed and which have fewer comforts, and those equiped for coastal cruising. Has in inboard diesel engine. The expense rises sharply after about 27-28ft, and as the sail area increases with size, the stresses on equipment and necessary force to control the boat rise ast well. This is just a general classification: plenty of boats blur the dividing lines betweeen daysailer, weekender, and cruiser/racer. There are many small racing boats, with or without accommodation, in the 20-24 foot range, for example. Deciding what your intended use is, and of course you budget, before you start looking around, will save you a lot of time/headaches. So, what do you enjoy about boating now, and how do you see yourself using a sailboat? Jeff
Clueless, You've received many enthusiastic responses, and a little helpful advice. I'll try to balance the scale, and follow up on what J.S posted. Before you look at boats, you must start with at least a foggy idea of how you want to use the boat: let's say in the next three years. To keep things simple, I'll talk about three broad size/use categories. 1) The daysailer— in the 14–18ft range, this is a light, open boat launced from a trailer. No heavy keel: your bodyweight on the rails is the ballast. The ride can be wet when there is a chop and/or a stiff litle breeze, or you tip it over (almost assumed). Very conveniently pulls behind a car. Little/no storage, and no accommodation for sleeping/eating. Inexpensive to buy/maintain, responsive, a great way to learn to sail; but, many find it limiting after the first season when the skills have been learned and sailors want to go farther afield. Typically is powered by sails/oars. 2) The weekender— typically from 20–24 feet, and with a swing-keel of iron that is pulled up to load on a trailer, lowered when in the water. Typically takes a truck to tow and two adults to rig the mast and riging; some are kept in the water. Has a cabin (in a wide range of sizes) and provides sitting, not standing, headroom. A drier ride than the daysailer, and as the name suggests, can be taken for overnight trips. All have berths to sleep in; most have some kind of galley for food preparation; almost all have toilets of some kind. Think of a camper on the back of a pickup, with all the related simplicity of lifestyle/fun. Usually motors with an outboard. 3) The cruiser/racer— beyond about 26ft, they live in the water. Standing headroom, more comforts of home, running (often heated) water, flushing toilets, multiple-burner stoves/ovens, and all the fancy gizmos you can stuff on it. Think motorhome. There are designs which lend themselves to racing (J Boats, for ex.) with deck layouts/gear choices for maximizing boatspeed and which have fewer comforts, and those equiped for coastal cruising. Has in inboard diesel engine. The expense rises sharply after about 27-28ft, and as the sail area increases with size, the stresses on equipment and necessary force to control the boat rise ast well. This is just a general classification: plenty of boats blur the dividing lines betweeen daysailer, weekender, and cruiser/racer. There are many small racing boats, with or without accommodation, in the 20-24 foot range, for example. Deciding what your intended use is, and of course you budget, before you start looking around, will save you a lot of time/headaches. So, what do you enjoy about boating now, and how do you see yourself using a sailboat? Jeff
Thanks
I appreciate all the responses. I have a better idea of what I am looking for. It seems for our purposes the daysailer would be too small and it wouldn't give us the room we would want. I am looking for something that is trailer-able but would have a cabin for the room we want. Are there any models or makes to stay away from? Any do's and don't with a first boat that you wish you knew? Thanks again. Capt. Clueless
I appreciate all the responses. I have a better idea of what I am looking for. It seems for our purposes the daysailer would be too small and it wouldn't give us the room we would want. I am looking for something that is trailer-able but would have a cabin for the room we want. Are there any models or makes to stay away from? Any do's and don't with a first boat that you wish you knew? Thanks again. Capt. Clueless
Setup time
Capt. Clueless I'm not sure when you say you'd like a trailerable if you mean haul and launch every time you go out like some smaller powerboats. Trailerable sailboats have the advantage of not requiring a home dock$$$, but be aware that you will need at least one hour setup and an additional 1 hour to breakdown the rigging every time you sail. And stepping the mast on a 26 foot sailboat (while on a trailer) is no easy task. Something you may want to consider. In my opinion the trailer thing works well with day sailors. It's also a nice option for people who can store their boats over the winter on their property. I used to have a 21 footer with a trailer. I kept it in the water all season and only used the trailer to haul and launch.
Capt. Clueless I'm not sure when you say you'd like a trailerable if you mean haul and launch every time you go out like some smaller powerboats. Trailerable sailboats have the advantage of not requiring a home dock$$$, but be aware that you will need at least one hour setup and an additional 1 hour to breakdown the rigging every time you sail. And stepping the mast on a 26 foot sailboat (while on a trailer) is no easy task. Something you may want to consider. In my opinion the trailer thing works well with day sailors. It's also a nice option for people who can store their boats over the winter on their property. I used to have a 21 footer with a trailer. I kept it in the water all season and only used the trailer to haul and launch.
Rent a movie ...
I suggest Captain Ron.
It's a fine tutorial for beginning sailors and fun to watch as well! I learned some good lessons with this movie. For example ... a diesel loves her oil and a sailor loves his rum! For a more serious look at sailing instruction, look into the DVD's from the Annapolis Book of Seamanship series. These are done by John Rousmaniere and they are very good.
I suggest Captain Ron.
It's a fine tutorial for beginning sailors and fun to watch as well! I learned some good lessons with this movie. For example ... a diesel loves her oil and a sailor loves his rum! For a more serious look at sailing instruction, look into the DVD's from the Annapolis Book of Seamanship series. These are done by John Rousmaniere and they are very good.
Things to consider
As axel pointed out, the trailable saves some bucks by not having to pay for a slip, but those extra hours and effort seem to really cut down on some folks sailing time. I know of several folks that tried the trailer route and either their boats sat because it was too much "trouble" or they eventually broke down and got a slip. When I was looking, I went thru the same thought process and realized thatr if I really wanted to use the boat every week, a slip was the best way to go. I decided on a used Hunter 29.5 (listed for sale) which gave me some of the bigger boat feel yet was very manageable for me. We just moved up to a Hunter 356 and loving it.
As axel pointed out, the trailable saves some bucks by not having to pay for a slip, but those extra hours and effort seem to really cut down on some folks sailing time. I know of several folks that tried the trailer route and either their boats sat because it was too much "trouble" or they eventually broke down and got a slip. When I was looking, I went thru the same thought process and realized thatr if I really wanted to use the boat every week, a slip was the best way to go. I decided on a used Hunter 29.5 (listed for sale) which gave me some of the bigger boat feel yet was very manageable for me. We just moved up to a Hunter 356 and loving it.
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