Wait a Minute!!

[Don Guillette]

I get most of my topic from beginners to intermedaite saiors. I feel if they have a questions other might also.

I was talking to a Fl sailor today -- his weather is pretty good compared to the rest of the USA (it's not too bad in Tucson today). He was telling me his boat is unresponsive to sail trim!! Obviously, I didn't know what he was talking about but after a few questions I understood his problem.

When he used the sail trim control to adjust draft depth for example, he was looking for an immediate response. When he didn't get it he applied more adjustment. Same with Twist -- when the boat didn't power up or power down he applied more. Same would apply to angle of attack.

Here's part of his problem. When I asked him what sail trim control he was using to adjust twist in his main and jib, he gave the wrong answer. He had the right answer for draft depth in the mainsail only.

How I explained his major problem was as follows. I was going to use the example of the jets in the engine carburetor but he sounded like a young guy who might not be familiar with a carb so I switched to another example. I asked him if when he changes the hot and cold setting in his shower if he gets an immediate response? Obviously, he didn't and therein lies the answer to his problem. When you make a sail trim adjustment and even if you do it slowly, you have to "wait a minute" for the adjustment to catch up or take effect. He didn't know he had to wait and smell the roses and his end result was a sail trim mess. Another problem was I don't think he was familiar enough to know which sail trim control for the main and jib did what and what setting he should be using for each point of sail and wind condition.

Some times sailors use the wrong controls and their adjustment is like slamming a sports car into 2nd, flooring the accelerator and then pulling up the emergancy brake.

 

[Kermit]

... and what setting he should be using for each point of sail and wind condition.

The low, medium and high settings usually work for me.

 

[fireman416]

My sail trims are working, not working...start up the engine

 

[Don Guillette]

There are very few situations I can think of where a mate couldn't sail out of situations. Efficient and effective sail trim is as easy to learn as riding a bike and the great thing is it's not like nuclear research, which goes on forever. Once you learn the basics of "riding the bike" that's it.

 

[Warren Milberg]

Don:
I suggest you post a mini-tutorial here on your views concerning twist, draft, and angle of attack....

 

[Stu Jackson]

Warren, isn't that why he wrote his book and chart?

 

[Warren Milberg]

Stu: I like Don's book and would recommend it to other sailors. But I think this forum should be educational and one where we all benefit from one another's ideas and experiences. As such I think Don could do many a great service by posting his ideas here.

 

[Don Guillette]

Warren: I'll have to think about how I could do something along the lines you're suggesting. My first thought is it wouldn't be an easy thing to do. When I lived in So Ca I conducted sail trim seminars from Ventura to San Diego. They were 3 hours in duration followed 4 hours on the water. They allowed a beginner sailor to become an intermedaite sail trimmer but I always felt it was like delivering infomation through a fire hose because they received everything they needed to know in one session and covered my entire book. I still felt there was more to give but time didn't permit it.

Three hours sessions don't work in AZ for a number of reasons so I shortened the presentation to 35 minutes followed by a Q&A, which is supposed to be limited to 30 minute but can go on for hours. I conduct these mini seminars for local AZ sailing clubs. A couple of years ago I conducted one for the trailer sailors convention in Lake Havasu, AZ and over 175 people attended.

The mini presentation deals with draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. Those 4 items, which I call the "4 elements of sail trim" happen to be the first chapter of my book. At the end of the chapter.I advise the reader not to go any further until they completely understand those elements because sail trim will never make any sense. In the mini program I use a large pond yacht to explain the elements. I also use a number of large posters. I put a lot of info into the presentation but still feel I didn't give enough sail trim info.

Understanding the "4 elements of sail trim" is just the start -- a sailor has to learn how all the sail trim controls for the main and jib to control the 4 elements and how each sail trim control works. Then there's telltales and then there's the settings for each control for each point of sail and wind condition.

Over the past 8 years on this forum a ton of sail trim info has been provided but space is limited, Read some of the stuff from Joe from San Diego and RichH -- they pack a lot into 3 or 4 paragraphs and probably would like to add more but space is limited.

I'm just exhausted thinking about this!!

 

[onecoolair]

Warren: I'll have to think about how I could do something along the lines you're suggesting. My first thought is it wouldn't be an easy thing to do. When I lived in So Ca I conducted sail trim seminars from Ventura to San Diego. They were 3 hours in duration followed 4 hours on the water. They allowed a beginner sailor to become an intermedaite sail trimmer but I always felt it was like delivering infomation through a fire hose because they received everything they needed to know in one session and covered my entire book. I still felt there was more to give but time didn't permit it.

Three hours sessions don't work in AZ for a number of reasons so I shortened the presentation to 35 minutes followed by a Q&A, which is supposed to be limited to 30 minute but can go on for hours. I conduct these mini seminars for local AZ sailing clubs. A couple of years ago I conducted one for the trailer sailors convention in Lake Havasu, AZ and over 175 people attended.

The mini presentation deals with draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. Those 4 items, which I call the "4 elements of sail trim" happen to be the first chapter of my book. At the end of the chapter.I advise the reader not to go any further until they completely understand those elements because sail trim will never make any sense. In the mini program I use a large pond yacht to explain the elements. I also use a number of large posters. I put a lot of info into the presentation but still feel I didn't give enough sail trim info.

Understanding the "4 elements of sail trim" is just the start -- a sailor has to learn how all the sail trim controls for the main and jib to control the 4 elements and how each sail trim control works. Then there's telltales and then there's the settings for each control for each point of sail and wind condition.

Over the past 8 years on this forum a ton of sail trim info has been provided but space is limited, Read some of the stuff from Joe from San Diego and RichH -- they pack a lot into 3 or 4 paragraphs and probably would like to add more but space is limited.

I'm just exhausted thinking about this!!

Oh the good old days when I could make enough extra money to make the rent teaching people how to sail...

 

[soldier1964]

Don sorry to say that I have not read your book. I plan to just as soon as I order one. I am still new to sailing but thanks to everyone here, I have been doing well and learning alot. I was given a ton of material to read from my sail shop. books like the annapolis book of seamanship, the complete sailing manual, and a few others. I read alot and put everything into practice on the water. Ive learned to trim my other boat pretty well but my newer one has a few more "gadgets" on it. sail trim is going to play a much bigger part then before, so guess who and which way I heading??? as soon as I finish your book I will be putting it to the test. Then Im going to tell you thanks.

 

[Scotty C-M]

I too, would like to read Don's book. Bet there is a lot of good information in it!! Also, look at UTube under sailing instruction. There is a wealth of great information there. How to tell the wheat from the chaff? Look for consistency between various tutorials. That type of active viewing makes the information sink in. Also go to videos (or sites) sponsored by institutions that you trust. I've learned a lot from YouTube and internet sites. Also, US Sailing has a lot of tutorials, some of which are free on their site. There is a lot on boat handling as well as sail trim. I've spent hours looking at instructional videos on the internet, and it has been fun and informative. That said, I would love to attend one of your seminars, Don, and would appreciate it if you could post some of that information on this site. Thanks!

 

[Don Guillette]

Here's how the sail trim lights went on for me. First, I spent a ton of money on sailing lessons at a school in Newport Beach, Ca. I took every class they offered. Unfortunately, I had no idea what the instructors were talking about. I thought I was the only person in the class that didn't get it because everyone else is nodding their heads as if they understood -- come to find out later they had no idea either. If you don't know the question to ask your lost because a man doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Next, I went to the sailing books. The problem I found with most books is the info is all over the place. For example, the outhaul is on pages 25, 52 67 and 125. The rest of the sail trim controls follow that same suit. Look at any book index to see what I'm talking about. In my book, every sail trim control and subject (telltales etc) has it's own section so everything a beginner needs to know about the traveler, fairleads etc is in one place. No other sailing book does that.

What I finally realized is that the sail trim controls, where most beginners including me start, are the CART and what they're adjusting (draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack) is the HORSE and not the other way around. That's why those elements are discussed in the first chapter. Next, I figured out what element each sail trim control for the mainsail and jib was adjusting. At that point, I was 60% home from a sail trim standpoint. Joe from San Diego, RichH and a number of other listers on this forum wouldn't be calling me at that time to discuss sail trim but I felt pretty good!!! Additionally, when I would talk to dock neighbors or YC friends about sail trim I knew if they were full of crap or knew what they were doing.

Here's my suggestion for a newbie who wants to get 100% performance out of his boat and has a few sailing books -- Dennis Conner "Sail Like A champion" is my bible. Start outlining everything you can find about draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. You'll know when you have all the info when the material starts repeating itself. Next, outline everything you can find for each sail trim control for the main and jib being sure to determine WHAT ELEMENT the control is adjusting. That's for starters but now you're 50% there. You still have a lot more work to do but you've got a FOUNDATION.

Can you imagine how long the above exercise will take?? Any newbie sailor could do what I've done but it depends on how much their time is worth because I've already done the above and more for you and the cost is equal to about 2 cases of Sam Adams and we all know where the Sam Adams goes!! My learning process may not be for everyone but it worked for me -- I just wish someone had made it easy for me. Would I ever go through that process again -- NEVER and it makes me ill just thinking about it.

 

[onecoolair]

When ever I taught sailing or sail trim I always used the K.I.S.S. principle when teaching someone new at first. I would just show them to set the out-haul,cunningham, halyard tensions etc.etc.just snug ...not to tight not to lose. Then the main focus was put on the luff about half way up main sail just behind mast and jib luff just behind forestay. Just the Basic's at first only...And to always remember "when doubt let it out" till sail starts to luff then bring it in just enough til it stops to luff but a little bubble never hurts. And then have them focus on their helms man skills by steering a loose course just following the wind leaving the sail trim alone and just keeping the same slight bubbling of luff of the sail the same while sailing back and forth across the bay... This is all you need to worry about..... All that other fancy stuff you can come later. More fun this way and learning curve was much faster...Well except that one friend of nearly 40 years. Who likes to tighten the halyards or out haul of main till something breaks and what ever do keep him away from the leach lines .. then slides the jib car all the way forward and chock down on the jib. Then wants to move the main sheet on the traveler bar to windward in stead of leaving the damned thing centered and chokes the main down too!! No matter the wind direction!

 

[NotCook]

One, is this the same guy who thinks the rail has to be in the water to be going fast? ;o)

 

[simpsoned]

You mean the rails don't have to be in the water to sail a boat? and I always thought sail trim was like a haircut...just a little off the top and leave the sides shaggy.

 

[shemandr]

Not to beat a dead horse, but once again I sort of disagree. When we (Not just me) raise sails we put on as much halyard tension as we can. Even low stretch line will stretch 1% which means a 100' run of line will stretch 1 foot!. 1 foot! That's so huge. We usually start with everything tight, let it stretch and then adjust to the conditions. And when we adjust halyard tension I'm happy to do it with the cunningham rather than trying to tension the halyard which is difficult when sailing upwind.

 

[Wanderer138]

Here's a thought. How about sharing sources other than Don's book that have helped us improve sail trim and say why. A listing of those sources could help a less experienced sailor searching the SBO forum archives for sail trim tips... I'm willing to start the ball rolling:

North U Trim by Bill Gladstone: well-written, simple language, clear drawings of sail shape before and after each trim adjustment. Affordable at the time, expensive now. A good book to read right after Don's.

 

[Sam Salter]

Here's my thoughts on this subject:
You can read all the books and even understand them - I did. But putting it all together in practice is where a lot of sailors get unstuck. Putting all that theory into a practical sail trim is not easy for a lot of people.

I took a 2 day sail trim course on a boat - no theory, except what you got on the boat while sailing. This was on a 52 ft custom Whylie with every imaginable line you could imagine and sailed like a dingy!
The owner put all the sails up - we were doing 4 knots at 29 degrees. He slowly started trimming the sails from the front back with explanations about what he was doing and why. Every time he made a change the boat stood up a little and the speed increased. When he'd finished we were at 14 degrees heel and doing something like 11 knots. Then I got it, and I've been hooked ever since!

It was such an eye opener that I took the course again about 6 months later.

Obviously there's still much to learn and I still get an eye opener from one of Don's or RickH's or Joe's comments. But that weekend course gave me the "critical mass" to get over the plateau I'd found myself on.

I don't have lists of settings at different wind speeds. I try to imagine what is happening as the wind crosses the sails and understand why I make a trim change.

This is not rocket science - anyway, I AM a rocket scientist!!!

Some people need to do it and others need to read it. If what you're doing isn't getting you there, change your approach - it worked for me.

sam

 

[Sam Salter]

But beware!
Once you go this route there's no going back - you've been taken by the dark side.
You'll start reading obscure texts by Arvil Gentry - and understand them!

sam

 

[D.L.Bland]

Thanx Sam, et al actually;
I am a mechanical engineer myself, I've been sailing since 1966.
Back then it was little rebels & x-boats, later a 33 footer, then a 42 footer in the Gulf & Carribean, Now I'm back down to a 45 year old, 26' Bristol, on the great lakes. I recently bought Don's charts & book,primarily to teach my daughter's boyfriend, another engineer. So I read it first to know how to present the material, and then I tried out the "tricks on my boat, and bingo ! I learned a bunch of stuff I had never really figured out. So. . . yep , scientific minds do better whence the material is read , THEN PHYSICALLY performed ! To anyone, BUY the Book , Buy the laminated charts, read it this winter, DO it come spring! You will be really really pleased!