Wait A Minute!!

[Alan]

I just don't get it. Someone spends a years pay or more to buy a nice boat and then is willing to put up with the acrobatics of having to jump around the deck in order to get the sails to set properly....and to have to do this constantly?? In the grand scheme adjustable fairleads are a relatively cheap upgrade that do soooo much for both the skipper and the boat. I can see forgoing a TV or microwave because of the added expense, but I just don't understand the logic behind opting out of proper sail controls. It's baffling!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

In the seven years I have owned the boat, I can't imagine that I have spent a year's salary in total on all expenses, including purchase. If I have, my priorities are out of wack! Anyway, it's a work in progress! Part of the deal is that the more lines and sail control gadgets I put on the boat, the less time my wife wants to spend on it. I have to demonstrate to her the benefits of all the things that actually get in the way of relaxation. I don't have any intention of being a lonely sailor. It's a matter of having a balanced approach ... gee, where have I heard that before?!?

 

[saltysailor]

To adjust without luffing you need to take the tension off the loaded sheet so you can move the car. Attach another sheet or pennant to the clew and secure it to a second car... or the toe rail... anything in front of the existing car... then ease the winched line to transfer pressure to the pennant... then adjust the lead while the presure is off....now you're ready to winch down the sheet and remove the pennant.

I haven't tried this but it seems a blake hitch (or another slide and grip knot) attached along the sheet a couple feet from the car but still comfortably close (on any point of sail) would work well. This might be easier then trying to get another line through the clew which may be a bit from arms reach. Just my thinking vs your actual experience so I'm just guessing but I'd like to try it this weekend. What's reason that the temp sheet should be attached in front of the existing car? I would have tried the blake hitch led directly to a cleat that is further aft of my car.

 

[Alan]

saltysailor, the reason for putting it in front of the car is to be able to remove as much load as possible from the car while it is being adjusted. If you can pull the working sheet all the way down in front of the car it will remove all load on the car. This is what Don was talking about when he was using his feet to press the sheet down in front of the car to allow the pin to be released and the car slid easily. Then the load is released back to the car. A cumbersome process for just a few inches of adjustment. If you want to use this method you'd be better off using a block on the end of your control line like a twing line used on spinnaker sheets. With line adjustable cars it is so simple, quick and easy.

 

[saltysailor]

saltysailor, the reason for putting it in front of the car is to be able to remove as much load as possible from the car while it is being adjusted. If you can pull the working sheet all the way down in front of the car it will remove all load on the car. This is what Don was talking about when he was using his feet to press the sheet down in front of the car to allow the pin to be released and the car slid easily. Then the load is released back to the car. A cumbersome process for just a few inches of adjustment. If you want to use this method you'd be better off using a block on the end of your control line like a twing line used on spinnaker sheets. With line adjustable cars it is so simple, quick and easy.

That makes sense. This sail trim forum is perfect for me right now to read up during the week and try things out once a week or so. Thanks

 

[cwkemp]

I just don't get it. Someone spends a years pay or more to buy a nice boat and then is willing to put up with the acrobatics of having to jump around the deck in order to get the sails to set properly....and to have to do this constantly?? In the grand scheme adjustable fairleads are a relatively cheap upgrade that do soooo much for both the skipper and the boat. I can see forgoing a TV or microwave because of the added expense, but I just don't understand the logic behind opting out of proper sail controls. It's baffling!

Alan,
I understand your point but try my perspective. In the 4 seasons I've owned my present boat, I've added dozens of "relatively cheap" upgrades, several were essential to sailing the boat at all. For instance, the stock "traveller" was adjusted by means of seperate stops along a round bar each of which had to be secured with thumbscrews, there was no vang at all, no purchase on the outhaul, frayed wire halyards, and so on. I'm now at the point of considering such conveniences as easy to adjust jib cars and a cunningham I can set from the cockpit...Oh and replacing the sails themselves which I suspect are as old as the boat. Good news is I'm not yet close to a year's salary in expenses (not that I could afford that). But I LOVE to sail this thing, or any of the few less-than-perfect sailboats I've been blessed to own. I think I'd like to sail an inner tube with a broomstick mast and a lashed on leeboard if that's all I could afford. Half the fun is learning how to make it better the other half is just doing it at all.

 

[Joe]

I haven't tried this but it seems a blake hitch (or another slide and grip knot) attached along the sheet a couple feet from the car but still comfortably close (on any point of sail) would work well. This might be easier then trying to get another line through the clew which may be a bit from arms reach. Just my thinking vs your actual experience so I'm just guessing but I'd like to try it this weekend. What's reason that the temp sheet should be attached in front of the existing car? I would have tried the blake hitch led directly to a cleat that is further aft of my car.

I hope I can explain this a little better. Standing on the loaded sheet, or tying another line to the sheet is NOT going to make it that much easier to move the car/slider. There is still a lifting tension as you move the car forward. In fact it's a little ridiculous.

No... what you have to do is secure the clew with a SECOND strap/sheet/pennant/lash.... whatever you can figure out to hold the clew in a sailing position, while you adjust the car by slacking the winched sheet..... You want the sheet UNLOADED.... yet the clew remains in a relatively effective position because it is secured by the secondary line....

The most common way sailors do this is with a SECOND car on the track located forward of the primary car.... they run a second sheet through the forward car, attach it to the clew ,or the bowline's loop, with a carabiner or heavy clip.(another good reason to attach primary sheets with a bowline!) Anyway, the line is cinched down to a convenient cleat. (a secondary winch could be used, but is not necessary.) Then they release the load on the primary sheet... transferring it to the temporary one... so they can move the car while the primary sheet is slacked. You could also do it with a car aft of the primary lead....but it is much more effecient with the adjusting car just in front because it interferes less with the sail handling... As you can see, with two cars you have many options with various sized sails.

When racing you might leave this setup rigged on both sides.... just snap or unsnap the adjusting sheet as needed.

It enlightened me when, I saw this method on an old instructional video called "The Shape of Speed"... Very cool..... of course, since I've invested in the Garhaurer system, I don't use the technique much... but with a second set of cars, and snap hooks on the lines, it is very effective.

 

[Alan]

cwkemp, please do not misunderstand my questioning, it was not directed at you. What you are doing and have accomplished with your upgrades is wonderful. The fact that you recognize the need for improvement and are working your way toward it is admirable.
What I fail to understand is those who have spent $100K and much more to purchase their boats and are willing to accept primitive sail controls yet have the very latest in electronics or other 'goodies'.
Of course, this is just my opinion and others are certainly free to disagree with me. We all are entitled to outfit our boats as we see fit, but why ignore the most basic of sail controls?

 

[Don Guillette]

Scott: Speaking of lonely sailors -as I mentioned previously the waterline on my boat came up 2" when I unloaded it because of all the creature comforts I had on board. If my wife wanted a refridge, microwave, TV or whatever she got it and here's why. I was docked at the Shoreline Marina in Long Beach, Ca for over 10 years and there were 4 or 5 married guy on my dock and that in that period of time I NEVER saw their wives!! I really didn't want to join that group. Another thing I did was run all my control lines to the helm so my wife wouldn't have to take the wheel, which she didn't like to do anyway. I even had Garhauer build me a 2' (right, that's 2 feet) winch handle. She decided she like my neighbors stern perch seats. Guess what, I made 2 of them so she could sit on either side. A man's got to do what he has to do to keep the ladies happy.

I was very lucky from a sail trim control stanpoint because I got to "test drive" a lot of the new Garhauer stuff and the great part was I got to keep it after suggesting modifications. The best one of all was the fairlead system. I had it rigged to act like a traveler. It's designed to primarily moved aft. When the line is released it will move forward, but only to a point. Sometimes I wanted to go beyond that forward point and the mod I made for the system allowed that to happen.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Just like with the traveler ...

Alan has shamed me into adjustable fairleads. I was worried about extra lines in the cockpit, but since I put the traveler system in, Sue likes it a lot more than she did when I was commanding her (asking her) to adjust the pin stops.

So the genoa system is going to be next ... I'm wondering if it is better to lead the lines back to the helm or cleat them forward in the cockpit. I don't like the idea of lines draped across the deck in front of the cockpit because that is just begging Sue to trip on them when she goes forward for the sun . If I can lead them outside the stanchions to the helm, that might be best. Maybe there is an intermediate point where I can set the cleat so that it can be reached from behind or in front of the wheel without being a nuisance either way. Then a real jib trimmer can adjust them if I ever got so lucky!

My winches are back by the helm and I find that when sailing alone (or giving Sue a much needed break from ANY sail trim duties ) it easier to release the sheet on one side and sheet in on the other from behind the wheel. If I'm alone, I often sit in front of the wheel to one side, but then move behind the wheel to tack or jibe ... it's just easier. I can even reach the traveler lines and adjust them from behind the wheel if I have them draped aft.

BTW, Sue does sail ... she just insists that I am always available to handle the sail trim duties when she is at the helm. It's not a two-way street, though. If I'm at the helm and she is occupied by more pressing matters (sun, daydreaming, cell phone), I just have to be prepared to handle the sail trim duties when she is occupied. And we are ALWAYS running out of lake so tacking and jibing constantly is a fact of life. Sue is always happy to pitch in when it's convenient, though! :dance:

 

[Joe]

The best one of all was the fairlead system. I had it rigged to act like a traveler. It's designed to primarily moved aft. When the line is released it will move forward, but only to a point. Sometimes I wanted to go beyond that forward point and the mod I made for the system allowed that to happen.

My garhauer jib lead system works just the opposite way. The control line pulls the car forward. The car's aft movement is assisted by the shock cord and the natural lifting action of the loaded sheet. It takes a lot of power to move the lead forward because it is resisted by the upward tension from the sheet. I would like to see your system in action. I'm guessing you have control lines to pull the car both forward and aft.

 

[Joe]

... I'm wondering if it is better to lead the lines back to the helm or cleat them forward in the cockpit. I don't like the idea of lines draped across the deck in front of the cockpit because that is just begging Sue to trip on them when she goes forward for the sun . If I can lead them outside the stanchions to the helm, that might be best. Maybe there is an intermediate point where I can set the cleat so that it can be reached from behind or in front of the wheel without being a nuisance either way. Then a real jib trimmer can adjust them if I ever got so lucky!

It will get pretty cluttered if you try running them outside the stanchion, back to the wheel. But you could easily rig it because Garhauer makes a cam cleat on a track slide... it is designed to fit aft of the rig on the genoa track. You might try it first to see how you like it. Otherwise, I would try installing a cleat just in front of your winch at the trimmer's station. I didn't like the control line running back along the track, so I put the cleat on an inside location ....(see photo) much easier to reach, the excess line is stuffed in the coaming box. In retrospect, I don't need the track mount cleat....a jam cleat would be fine...

The key to making the system work well is the sheet's run from the lead block to the winch. If it pulls up.... you won't be able to move the car back easily. My solution was to run the sheet from the lead .... flat along the track to an additional turning block then ... to the winch. That way there is no upward tension on the sheet behind the car.

 

[cwkemp]

cwkemp, please do not misunderstand my questioning, it was not directed at you. What you are doing and have accomplished with your upgrades is wonderful. The fact that you recognize the need for improvement and are working your way toward it is admirable.
What I fail to understand is those who have spent $100K and much more to purchase their boats and are willing to accept primitive sail controls yet have the very latest in electronics or other 'goodies'.
Of course, this is just my opinion and others are certainly free to disagree with me. We all are entitled to outfit our boats as we see fit, but why ignore the most basic of sail controls?

Alan
Thanks for the encouragement and clarification, I took no offense to begin with and I understand now what you are addressing. I must confess, however, that I am thoroughly enjoying using the DeLorme handheld GPS that my sons gave me two years ago, particularly for depth charts, speed through water, and VMG. Other than that and my VHF, I think any more electronics would be a distraction from sailing for me. But "different strokes..." and all that.
I am currently thinking about rigging the system others have described using my existing tracks and cars whereby one can use a purchase to pull the cars forward and allow the upward sheet pressure to move them back when needed. Seems simple and would require little hardware.
Clint