Vision 32 - Mast Rake?

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Dave Morgan

Let me start with a small disclaimer... I'm not a seasoned sailor by any means. I'm a beginner at best, so bear with me. I find that my V32 is quite difficult to steer in strong or gusty winds (15-20Knots), and a dock neighbor suggested this might be due to the mast rake. His explanation seems to make sense to me, but I'm looking for more input. As the wind increases or gusts, the boat will suddenly, and severely steer into the wind. This occurs even with the main reefed (first reef), without the jib. Anybody have experience with this?
 
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Guest

Sounds like the main is in too far..

..I don't believe mast rake is adjustable. I had a Vision for nine years and did not experience the problem you mentioned unless the main was sheeted in too tight and/or the traveller was up too far. Use the traveller to dump wind in gusts. And, head up into them. I found that it wanted a reef at about 18-22 knots, so you may be on the edge of overpowered, but you do say you have the same issue with a reef in it. Is the sail OK, or could it be blown out? I would keep at it and keep just enough air in the main to keep it from having a soft belly and try a variety of settings on the outhaul and halyard, both of which should be pretty tight in those conditions. Good luck, Rick D.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Have you tried....

Dave: Have you tried the reefed main with a jib. I know nothing about the Vision boats but some boats do not steer well without a jib. BALANCE
 
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Tom Boles

Mast Rake & Vision 32

Hi- I am new to my Vision 32 as well, but I have spent some time on boats in the past.... The mast on the V32 is part of a carefully engineered system of the heel fitting (where the base of the mast is located and fastened to the boat), the deck-level fittings, the hull & deck near the mast and the mast itself. There is not much opportunity for variations in rake (as there is with conventional rigs) as delivered from Hunter. Since there are no stays holding the mast up, the system is designed to put the mast in the right place and keep it there. It is possible that some combination of mainsheet/vang/mainsail downforce and lack of forestay/jib halyard tension COULD change the "rake" of the mast (actually more like cause a slight curve in the mast), but this would very small and not at all along the lines of what your dockmate was talking about. I have sailed my vision in fairly strong winds recently (15-22) with jib & 2nd reef in the main. I thought she handeled well, but I know if I had spent a bit more time getting the foot of the reefed sail flatter, she would have sailed even better. The full battens allow the sail to take a full shape without luffing and the lack of noise from the ill-shaped sail makes me forget it needs to be flattened.... Some ideas/questions: Is it possible the wind was changing direction quickly? What sort of shape are your sails in? Have you sailed other boats in similar conditions? IS your rudder & steering in good order? What point of sail were you on? Where was the traveller? When did you stop beating your wife? ;) (sorry, could not resist) Anyway, does not sound like fun, and I have not seen this in my month or two sailing my V32. Perhaps Mike or others with a lot more experience with the V32 will chime in and help out. (In fact, I know they will!) Cheers!
 
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Paul

just rounding up

15-20 is a lot of wind for light, flat-bottomed, wide-reared, B&R rigged sailboats. You're just rounding up. That means that: 1. There's too much sideways pressure in the sails aft of the keel. If the winds are strong and the jib is rolled up, that's why. This is what everyone calls weather helm. It's almost always present in varying degrees, but you have too much. 2. When the boat is heeled, the wetted hull shape tends to turn the boat into the wind. 3. The boat is heeled over so far that the rudder can't bite the water enough to counteract these two forces. No need to retune your rig. You are better off with your jib rolled partway out for balance, as the other poster said. If you don't like the amount of heel with this configuration, put in another reef--but keep some jib out. I'm always at number 2 when the puffs hit 20 in my 336. The boat's sailing at hull speed anyway by that time.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Paul, not a B & R Rig.

Paul: The Vision does not have a B & R Rig. They have no rigging at all. This boat has a free standing mast and a forestay! But many of your observation may hold true of this type of a setup anyway (I do not know). The other item that needs to be looked at is the condition of the main sail. This could also be causing some of the problem along with the lack of jib.
 
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J. Hrab

Strong wind sailing

Your comments are very interesting; I can only answer from my own personal experience: When there is a strong wind, I simply open up the main, not the traveller. The boat straightens up easely and I sail in 20-25 kn with one finger on the wheel and I heel 15 degrees max. I do not use the jib, I only use the main. Also the mast will bend a little; spilling the excess wind. Just this week end I had a woman on board, which is sailing her 40 foot Caliber around the world for the second time and she was amazed at how cleanly the boat sailed with such a simple opening up of the main, no jib. Last year in a race, I had the main fully maintained + jib and we were pushing it and we were neck and neck with 2 other boats (one larger and one smaller (racing boat) and the Vision did go in the wind a few times, I had difficulties in maintaining it on a straight line (be damned if I would ease up as there were others watching us !) we were limit, but to my satisfaction they had more problems than us (I was releived when the wind died a little, as I was about to let the main up) One thing I have to say about the Vision: it forgave me many of my errors and stil does so gracefully, the mast configuration is a big help. Good luck and your confidence will grow as you will see how forgiving the boat is: this one of the main reason why I am still sailing. Sincerely, J.B. Hrab
 
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James Marohn

Jib as a pointing device

I'm in my 3rd season with our Vision-32. With the fractional rig, I remember the folks who were teaching us sailing tell us that the jib is mainly for "pointing" the boat. Interesting vocabulary, I thought. I've always thought that they meant that the jib, being so small compared to the main, helps "steer" the boat. I have never sailed our boat with only the main. Next time the wind is around 15, I'll furl up our jib and see how the boat handles... I noticed in the original posting, you mention that you sailed with only the main... Maybe the jib would help?? BTW, for the more experienced sailors: What exactly does "pointing" mean and how does the jib "point" the boat??
 
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Tom Cooper

weather helm

I agree with most answers so far ,we spill air with the traveller or sometimes a fishermans reef and ease out the main sheet. But on reading your question you did not mention if you were going to windward or running with the seas on a Quarter If the Later you you might find it helpful to steer with the waves . Hope this helps.V32,s rule.
 
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Dave Morgan

OK, so here we go again...

First, thanks for all the responses. Just one question regarding the following quote... "When did you stop beating your wife? ;) (sorry, could not resist)". How/where does that fit in? So, back to the topic at hand. I'll try the suggestions noted in the responses. I don't think I have the main sheeted in too tight (but I guess that's all relative to each person's idea of tight). In a strong wind I generally allow the boom to rise (loosen the boom vang and loosen the main sheet), putting a twist into the sail. The lower sail is full, but the upper is mostly relaxed or fluttering. My reason for not using the jib is that it seems to make the problem worse. It is my thinking that the jib accelerates the wind across the lee side of the main. Am I wrong?
 
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Paul

Jib directs air, doesn't accelerate it.

One function of the jib is to channel air flow across the leading edge of the main. In order for the jib to accelerate air, it would have to create a venturi, a passage of decreasing cross-sectional area. I don't think that exists, except maybe in the case where a genoa has substantial overlap. But another function of the jib is to create forward drive force in the same way as the main. And just like the main, this force includes a sideways component that creates heel. Unlike the main, the sideways force on the jib resists rounding up since that force is forward of the center of lateral resistance (CLR) and reduces weather helm. Certainly boats point better with a jib. However, they also reach faster. So, I think that to say that jibs and genoas just help a sailboat point higher is inaccurate. You can reach with the jib all by itself. You can even close reach on most boats. That ain't pointing, that's going.
 
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Dave Morgan

Thank you Paul

A good 'layman's' explanation of something I obviously wasn't clear on. Any ideas on why the jib seems add to the rounding up feel?
 
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Paul

Could be just heeling

When you're reaching, any sail that's flying contributes to heel. If the jib is out, you'll be heeling more than if it's rolled up. As the boat heels over, a couple of things happen that might be affecting you. 1. The shape of the hull that's underwater changes in a way that tends to turn the boat toward the wind. You really notice this sailing dinghies. 2. The rudder on some boats (my wide-reared flat bottomed 336, for instance) is partially lifted out of the water. On any boat, a heeled rudder has less bite than a vertical rudder. So, you can be rounded up even under a balanced sail plan. I've been reaching across Gardiner's Bay before in 18-20 knots with the main reefed (once) and the jib rolled all the way out, and have nearly been rounded up by puffs. The only strategy I know is to heel less. You can deal with this two ways: reef some more, or bear away from the wind in the puffs. This flattens the boat and the rudder doesn't lose it's bite. If you are sailing close hauled, pinch higher in the puffs for the same result. Somebody mentioned the "fisherman's reef," a trimmed jib and a luffing main. I use that sometimes, too. Seems to work well even though it's not very elegant.
 
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Rob Sherrill

My Thoughts on the subjec

Well I am no expert on the subject but have about 2.5 years with the Vision and I am not having any trouble such as you described. I can tell you that sometimes with the heel approaching 25-30 that relaxing the traveler or easing the main or both will reduce the heel and bring back the authority of the rudder. When it gets over and your in tight the rudder can hit the stop and the drag sets in. Easing both the traveler and the main will get you back in the middle with the rudder and that "finger tip" control will return. I have enlarged my jib (they call it a 155% genoa but it still looks small like a jib) and I still have no problems as long as I stay ahead of the boat. It will round up into the wind left unattended and there isn't enough rudder to compensate. The nice thing about the Vision is that it will spill the gusts out of the top without the rigging to hold it. That is one of the nice features of the Vision. I think experience and experimentation will make you feel better in the long run. Stick with it. I think you will find all of us Vision owners quite satisfied with our boats overall.
 
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Mike Webster

Thought I'd Finally Chime In . . .

The Vision 32 definitely behaves differently under different points of sail. It also has a huge main and really benefits from good sails and proper trimming. Most cruisers try to make their sails last until they aren't even good for paint rags, while racers can get carried away with getting the latest every year, thinking new sails will help them win, even though sailing technique has far more to do with it. There is a happy medium in there somewhere for good performance at acceptable price levels. I've raced a good bit, now I mainly cruise, but I've learned some things about sail trim (probably less than I think). My boat, CrackerJack, had 12 year old sails last year, which had been used a lot. The last few years, I've been less than enthusiastic about sailing, as the sails were blown out, and the handling and speed characteristics were pretty tired. New sails this year changed that in a big way. Lets get to what I've noticed about the boats' handling under heavy winds. First, it behaves very well going downwind, even with the jib blanketed. I've sailed her on the Chesapeake, Atlantic, Lakes Michigan and Ontario, and now inland at Lake Lanier. I've seen 15' waves and 40knot winds on the Atlantic, double reefed, with speeds of 10+ knots surfing, and she handled well. I've seen her do 12+ knots surfing off a wave crossing the Rappahannoc on the Chesapeake, and it was very exciting, but controlled. The point is, she sails well down wind. Beating in strong winds requires finesse, and good sails. Blown out sails moves your vector forces back in the sails, creating additional heal. It also moves your center of effort (CE) back in the mainsail, effectively increasing weather helm, which increases the tendency to round-up during gusty conditions. Think of the mast as being a pivot point. The boat hasn't been much fun to sail in heavy conditions lately, but as I indicated earlier, new sails have changed that. We've had a very windy spring, and I've had several chances to sail CrackerJack with the new sails in 15-20 knot winds, gusting much higher. With the new jib and main, both cut very flat, I've been able to beat upwind with full sails very effectively, by riding the upwind edge very closely (pinching up until the inside telltails are straight up) and with a large fishermans reef in the main. I've gone upwind at 6 1/2 knots like this with complete control, with very little weather helm and no tendency to round-up. Very gusty conditions aren't a problem as long as you see the gusts coming and react accordingly, fast changing wind direction notwithstanding. Beam reaching is the Visions strong suit. I've had the knot meter hit 9 knots on many occasions beam to close reaching in heavier air. I've gone from Annapolis to Deltaville, VA, about 96 miles, in 12 hours on a beautiful beam reach day many moons ago. The boat is really in its element here. However, in my experience, that big main will let you know very quickly when you are overcanvased in these conditions. Round-ups can become quite common as the wind builds. Learn to reef, flatten the sails, or change sailing angle to better handle the conditions. My observations are that most sailors do not let out their mainsails enough when beam reaching. The rule is to let out the sail until it starts luffing, and bring it back in JUST until the luffing stops. This lets the sail spill wind as you come up a little. A nice twist in the sail also spills wind up high, reducing healing forces. If the sail is in a little too much when the wind builds, round-ups can be expected. As you try to compensate for a gust by coming up, you are actually adding power to the rig as the sail enters its most aerodymanic form (just before luffing), accelerating the tendency to round up. As you bring the boat around so the wind is slightly abaft the beam, you can no longer let the sail out further. Heading up increases healing, inducing further weather helm, possibly inducing a round-up in heavier conditions. If it keeps happening, reduce sail further, flatten your sails further, twist off, and/or change your point of sail to increase control. Many times, its easier to control the boat in these conditions by heading more downwind. I've read a lot about the speed, pointing ability, tenderness, etc of the Vision 32 in these pages. IMHO, the Vision 32 is not tender, is well behaved, motors extremely well, and handles varying condions as good or better than most production boats. Is she an off-shore boat? No! Would I take her off shore? I already have, and felt confident in her ability to take the conditions. Does she point? With good sails, she points as well as most other cruisers, but not with a real race boat. My old sails had me tacking thru 120 degrees, but the new sails tack thru 90 degrees easily. As a caveat to the question of speed, I find her to be quite fast. My knotmeter readings above have been verified by my GPS (actual readings are very close thru 6.5 knots, and read about 3/4 knots fast at an indicated 9 knots of speed). In summary, I've enjoyed owning CrackerJack very much. My favorite boat to move up to (not that I'm looking) would be a Vision 36, if that tells you anything. I love the rig and ease of sailing her, and I particularly love the interior. She's a package thats hard to beat. She's been, and still is, a great boat.
 
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