Vinegar seems to be ruining my joker valves. Per your advice, I've used undiluted vinegar in the head when I'm leaving the boat. I flush some fresh water behind it and head on home. But, every time I've done it, it seems to ruin the joker valve. (Plain ole basic Jabsco $114 head). I'm putting in my 4th one this season. Shortly after using the vinegar, the waste water starts seeping back into the bowl. The holding tank is less that 1/4 full. Everything works fine until I do the vinegar treatment)(which I don't think I will do anymore.) Am I loosing my mind or is there some logic here?
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I don't THINK you're losing your mind, but...
Vinegar CAN'T hurt a joker valve. It's just rubber, and vinegar doesn't hurt rubber. However, a joker valve will not prevent slow seepage...whatever is left in a hose to run back, will. A brand new joker valve may close tight enough to prevent it, but it only takes a few flushes to loosen it up enough to allow some seepage. And it's not coming from your holding tank...the hose from the toilet from the tank enters the tank at the top...how could any tank contents leap up to run into it. It CAN happen--even with only a 1/4 full tank if you're heeled enough, but there ain't no way it's gonna do it while the boat is upright at rest. Anything that's seeping back into the bowl is coming from the hose. If you have a vented loop in the head discharge, the head discharge hose goes straight up to the loop. Whatever is in the hose between the toilet and the top of the loop when you stop flushing is naturally gonna run back down if it can. Whether you have a loop or not, if you stop flushing as soon as the bowl is empty, that's where the waste is gonna stay till the head is pumped again. The first flush moves a little further...the second one continues to leave waste in the hose to run back into the bowl. Provei it to yourself by replacing the joker valve again and skipping the vinegar...after two people have spent a weekend aboard, the joker valve will start to allow seepage. If you're flushing your toilet completely, it will only be clean water...if you're not, it'll be waste.
Vinegar CAN'T hurt a joker valve. It's just rubber, and vinegar doesn't hurt rubber. However, a joker valve will not prevent slow seepage...whatever is left in a hose to run back, will. A brand new joker valve may close tight enough to prevent it, but it only takes a few flushes to loosen it up enough to allow some seepage. And it's not coming from your holding tank...the hose from the toilet from the tank enters the tank at the top...how could any tank contents leap up to run into it. It CAN happen--even with only a 1/4 full tank if you're heeled enough, but there ain't no way it's gonna do it while the boat is upright at rest. Anything that's seeping back into the bowl is coming from the hose. If you have a vented loop in the head discharge, the head discharge hose goes straight up to the loop. Whatever is in the hose between the toilet and the top of the loop when you stop flushing is naturally gonna run back down if it can. Whether you have a loop or not, if you stop flushing as soon as the bowl is empty, that's where the waste is gonna stay till the head is pumped again. The first flush moves a little further...the second one continues to leave waste in the hose to run back into the bowl. Provei it to yourself by replacing the joker valve again and skipping the vinegar...after two people have spent a weekend aboard, the joker valve will start to allow seepage. If you're flushing your toilet completely, it will only be clean water...if you're not, it'll be waste.
Ok, Peggy now what?
Your wisdom on joker valves is insightful. I reassesed my problem last night and determined that I am not loosing it My 37.5' is relatively new to me and, yes, each time I have replaced the joker valve it has worn, allowing seepage back to the head. I suspect this is because the holding tank is slightly higher than the head and there does not appear to be a vent in the line (checked by sight and diagram.) So a lot of waste seeps back into the head (3/4 full and rather foul.) On my previous boat, a 31', I think that the head was higher that the line to the tank, so I suspect the waste just sat in the line. I never had the seepage back into the head on that boat. There was a vent on the discharge line to the waste pumpout. So what are my options? Aside from living with it, I could (i) put a vent in the waste line between the head and the tank (likely to be a tough job based on what I see); (ii) raise the head (not the most aestically pleasing option); or (iii) some type of check valve in the waste line. Do you have others? I will probably replace the waste line with the Seland hose this winter, as I did on my previous boat. That's why I seeking the best alternative now. I know you answer these vent questions all the time 'cuz when I searched the archives the number of hits was overwhelming. So, I'm trying the direct approach. Thanks.
Your wisdom on joker valves is insightful. I reassesed my problem last night and determined that I am not loosing it My 37.5' is relatively new to me and, yes, each time I have replaced the joker valve it has worn, allowing seepage back to the head. I suspect this is because the holding tank is slightly higher than the head and there does not appear to be a vent in the line (checked by sight and diagram.) So a lot of waste seeps back into the head (3/4 full and rather foul.) On my previous boat, a 31', I think that the head was higher that the line to the tank, so I suspect the waste just sat in the line. I never had the seepage back into the head on that boat. There was a vent on the discharge line to the waste pumpout. So what are my options? Aside from living with it, I could (i) put a vent in the waste line between the head and the tank (likely to be a tough job based on what I see); (ii) raise the head (not the most aestically pleasing option); or (iii) some type of check valve in the waste line. Do you have others? I will probably replace the waste line with the Seland hose this winter, as I did on my previous boat. That's why I seeking the best alternative now. I know you answer these vent questions all the time 'cuz when I searched the archives the number of hits was overwhelming. So, I'm trying the direct approach. Thanks.
Ain't no way.
Don: I cannot believe that a joker valve can WEAR out like this. There has got to be something wrong with the head. I'd call Jabsco and get their take on this. As you know we have a H'31 also. I do not think that the head was above the tank. The head is just about at the water line and the tank is just beneath the v-berth (tank is higher than the head). I am wondering if you have any low spots in your line. On the H'31 the hose went from the bottom of the head thru the bulkhead and then uphill to the TOP of the tank. So, if you pumped enough raw water thru the head the line should be evacuated. We had a similar problem with our old Groco HF. It was fine after I put a kit in it but started to get "bad water" backing up in the bowl. I replace the head with the Jabsco and everything has been fine since. Do you have this problem even after the tank has been pumped or just when it is partially full? Does your "exhaust" from the head go into the TOP of the holding tank? Does the hose have ANY low spots?
Don: I cannot believe that a joker valve can WEAR out like this. There has got to be something wrong with the head. I'd call Jabsco and get their take on this. As you know we have a H'31 also. I do not think that the head was above the tank. The head is just about at the water line and the tank is just beneath the v-berth (tank is higher than the head). I am wondering if you have any low spots in your line. On the H'31 the hose went from the bottom of the head thru the bulkhead and then uphill to the TOP of the tank. So, if you pumped enough raw water thru the head the line should be evacuated. We had a similar problem with our old Groco HF. It was fine after I put a kit in it but started to get "bad water" backing up in the bowl. I replace the head with the Jabsco and everything has been fine since. Do you have this problem even after the tank has been pumped or just when it is partially full? Does your "exhaust" from the head go into the TOP of the holding tank? Does the hose have ANY low spots?
Steve...any other 37.5 owners please read thread)
Thanks for the thoughts. It looks to me like it's uphill all the way from the head to the tank. I rebuit the head early on (should have replaced it) and have replaced the joker valve twice since then. It always works fine for a while, then the seepage starts. I'm thinking that there is such an incline in the hose, making the backflow pressure seep through the joker valve. At least that jives with Peggy's previous post. As I recall, on the 31 there is a little bit of a dip from the head to the tank (i.e., below the head outlet) even though the hose ultimately hits the top of the tank. I'm stumped and it stinks. Another reason you might be able to pick up a 37.5 cheap!
Thanks for the thoughts. It looks to me like it's uphill all the way from the head to the tank. I rebuit the head early on (should have replaced it) and have replaced the joker valve twice since then. It always works fine for a while, then the seepage starts. I'm thinking that there is such an incline in the hose, making the backflow pressure seep through the joker valve. At least that jives with Peggy's previous post. As I recall, on the 31 there is a little bit of a dip from the head to the tank (i.e., below the head outlet) even though the hose ultimately hits the top of the tank. I'm stumped and it stinks. Another reason you might be able to pick up a 37.5 cheap!
I think a new one is in order!
Don: I thought that you had a new head! Stupid me. I have resigned myself to NEVER rebuilding a cheap-o head again. Everytime I have done this, I ended up buying a new one a year or so later anyway. Last year I installed a new Jabsco and it works fine. I would have invested in the Cricket, but the head in the H'31 is so confined that I did not think it was going to be the best choice. Considering that there was the bench seat that goes over the head for showering and dressing etc. I must assume that your head is much larger in the 37.5 so I would take a look at one of these if I had your boat. The only other thing about the Cricket was the raw water valve was not very convinent either. Other than that, the design seems to be a lot better and should provide many years of care free service. Good luck and happy flushing.
Don: I thought that you had a new head! Stupid me. I have resigned myself to NEVER rebuilding a cheap-o head again. Everytime I have done this, I ended up buying a new one a year or so later anyway. Last year I installed a new Jabsco and it works fine. I would have invested in the Cricket, but the head in the H'31 is so confined that I did not think it was going to be the best choice. Considering that there was the bench seat that goes over the head for showering and dressing etc. I must assume that your head is much larger in the 37.5 so I would take a look at one of these if I had your boat. The only other thing about the Cricket was the raw water valve was not very convinent either. Other than that, the design seems to be a lot better and should provide many years of care free service. Good luck and happy flushing.
Whether a toilet is new or old,
a joker valve is a joker valve. It's in the head discharge fitting, not part of the pump--the flange on it actually forms the gasket between the fitting and the pump. So whether a toilet is new or old, whether the pump needs replacing or not, has nothing whatever to do with whether waste in the discharge line is seeping into the bowl. Replacing the toilet won't make one bit of difference.
a joker valve is a joker valve. It's in the head discharge fitting, not part of the pump--the flange on it actually forms the gasket between the fitting and the pump. So whether a toilet is new or old, whether the pump needs replacing or not, has nothing whatever to do with whether waste in the discharge line is seeping into the bowl. Replacing the toilet won't make one bit of difference.
Don, it would go a long way to solve your problem
if you did two things: 1. always flush long enough to send bowl contents all the way to the tank...and 2. Never leave the boat without putting at least a couple of quarts of clean fresh water down the toilet to rinse all the salt water out of the hose, followed by a cup or two of undiluted white vinegar. What seeps back into your toilet can only be smelly if what's left the hose to seep back into your toilet is smelly. Keep the hose clean, and leave only clean water in it, and only clean water can seep back into the bowl. A marine toilet AIN'T the one at home...marine toilets are NOT maintenance-free!
if you did two things: 1. always flush long enough to send bowl contents all the way to the tank...and 2. Never leave the boat without putting at least a couple of quarts of clean fresh water down the toilet to rinse all the salt water out of the hose, followed by a cup or two of undiluted white vinegar. What seeps back into your toilet can only be smelly if what's left the hose to seep back into your toilet is smelly. Keep the hose clean, and leave only clean water in it, and only clean water can seep back into the bowl. A marine toilet AIN'T the one at home...marine toilets are NOT maintenance-free!
It's NOT wearing out, Steve...
but a joker valve is not a water-tight seal, either. It may be for the first few flushes, but it only has to be open the slightest micro-milimeter to let liquid backed against it seep through it. Anyone who expects it to be a water-tight seal has unrealistic expectations. The purpose of a joker valve is not to prevent seepage, it's only to prevent solids and paper from backing up into the bowl in the event of a blockage. It's only worn out when you start seeing something besides liquid in the bowl.
but a joker valve is not a water-tight seal, either. It may be for the first few flushes, but it only has to be open the slightest micro-milimeter to let liquid backed against it seep through it. Anyone who expects it to be a water-tight seal has unrealistic expectations. The purpose of a joker valve is not to prevent seepage, it's only to prevent solids and paper from backing up into the bowl in the event of a blockage. It's only worn out when you start seeing something besides liquid in the bowl.
So Peggy, it sounds like you're saying..
Live with it and try to make sure the hose is left full of fresh water. BTW, do you know the stat for how many flushes it takes to move water a foot, or something simiilar? I'd like to determine how many flushes/pumps it would take to ensure the waste has gone into the tank. I realize that this would vary by brand/model and I can test it by removing the hose from the tank, but you seem to have so many obscure facts about heads and waste, I thought I'd ask you first. And thanks for setting Steve D. straight! He's such a smarty
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Live with it and try to make sure the hose is left full of fresh water. BTW, do you know the stat for how many flushes it takes to move water a foot, or something simiilar? I'd like to determine how many flushes/pumps it would take to ensure the waste has gone into the tank. I realize that this would vary by brand/model and I can test it by removing the hose from the tank, but you seem to have so many obscure facts about heads and waste, I thought I'd ask you first. And thanks for setting Steve D. straight! He's such a smarty
.Sorry, no arcane formula for this, Don
At least none that I know of. But you shouldn't have to disconnect any hoses to find out either. One person with his/her ear to the tank while the another pumps and counts should be able to hear when water starts falling into the tank if you do it when the tank is close to empty. However, if I were you I'd try to eliminate an uphill run all the way from the toilet to the tank--for a couple of reasons: unless the inlet on the tank is toward the centerline, heeling will send even a half full tank back down the discharge, putting waste right back into the hose you're gonna be so careful to keep clean from now on. Stay on the same tack long enough, and you can even overflow the bowl if the joker valve is badly worn. Going into a holding tank doesn't necessarily require a VENTED loop, but putting a loop in the hose that's higher than tank contents can climb over at any angle of heel right after the head discharge will prevent it, and will only leave as much water in the hose as the dry setting can't push over the top of it. And you'd only have to pump enough to clear the top of the loop. and rinse behind it.
At least none that I know of. But you shouldn't have to disconnect any hoses to find out either. One person with his/her ear to the tank while the another pumps and counts should be able to hear when water starts falling into the tank if you do it when the tank is close to empty. However, if I were you I'd try to eliminate an uphill run all the way from the toilet to the tank--for a couple of reasons: unless the inlet on the tank is toward the centerline, heeling will send even a half full tank back down the discharge, putting waste right back into the hose you're gonna be so careful to keep clean from now on. Stay on the same tack long enough, and you can even overflow the bowl if the joker valve is badly worn. Going into a holding tank doesn't necessarily require a VENTED loop, but putting a loop in the hose that's higher than tank contents can climb over at any angle of heel right after the head discharge will prevent it, and will only leave as much water in the hose as the dry setting can't push over the top of it. And you'd only have to pump enough to clear the top of the loop. and rinse behind it.
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