VHF Radio decision

[Don S/V ILLusion]

I woudn't get too hung up on the range calculations as it is only an approximation. Lots of other variables play on actual distance within which you will have reliable communications including sea state, weather, tropospheric ducting, angle of the antenna w/r to vertical, nearby metallic objects effecting the antenna radiation pattern, etc..

Most VHF marine radios are equivalent although some microphones may not be creating the perception some radios are inferior. Conversely, all coax is not equal and can have a FAR greater effect that one might think. Some so-called marine coax has a significant power loss compared with good quality RG213 and as it ages, the loss increases. Poor soldered connectors also have a major influence on the radio's performance.

In all, don't worry about the radio - it's all about the installation.

 

[rejenk3]

I just purchased a hand held Standard Horizon HX850S and am pleased with the unit. It features weather, DSC and GPS so no interconnection is necessary and one button (under cover) emergency call activation. In addition when mounted in the cradle will output GPS for other devices. The only disadvantage is range from only be 6' above water level. It displays course and speed over ground which is handy at the helm. Ultimately a fixed unit may be the best, but this will be a nice back up independent from the ship's electrical system.

 

[Ross in Tampa]

the coast guard does not have to abide by the 5 watt max. You can hear them, they can't hear you.

 

[Scott B]

I woudn't get too hung up on the range calculations as it is only an approximation. Lots of other variables play on actual distance within which you will have reliable communications including sea state, weather, tropospheric ducting, angle of the antenna w/r to vertical, nearby metallic objects effecting the antenna radiation pattern, etc..

Most VHF marine radios are equivalent although some microphones may not be creating the perception some radios are inferior. Conversely, all coax is not equal and can have a FAR greater effect that one might think. Some so-called marine coax has a significant power loss compared with good quality RG213 and as it ages, the loss increases. Poor soldered connectors also have a major influence on the radio's performance.

In all, don't worry about the radio - it's all about the installation.

I agree Don, my point was more to the fact that if you are too far out, with a handheld you may risk not being able to contact CG and be relying on another boat to relay your message. I've heard several times on our area, handhelds doing radio checks with CG and CG having diffculty reading. That is an area that is well covered with CG towers and not far from shore at all.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Scott
We're on the same "wavelength"

Handhelds certainly have their uses but depending on one for assistance in an emergency is not a wise choice for a place to economize., esp if it is the only radio someone has. It should be considered as a redundant tool, not a primary one.

 

[sailingdog]

I'd point out that a full DSC-Type D radio has two receivers, one dedicated for the DSC functions, and one for the voice functions. Not all DSC radios have this...

As for the real utility of the wireless mike... not really realistic if the sailboat is moving away from you, as most only have a working range of about 30' and probably less than that if it is soaked and at water level. A handheld VHF is a much safer bet.

Be aware that a lot of the bargain VHF's with DSC may not have the most current version of it. [Note that DSC location function only helps you if you have the VHF hooked up to a compatible GPS unit...if so it will tell the GG who you are, what you are and where you are]. Type D sends more information and will only cost you $10 more if you shop around. I just bought the Uniden Polaris for about $120 from Bass Pro Shop and it has a significant safety feature. A wireless mike can be bought for only $60 (just bought one off ebay). The mike is submersible and has all the functions of the head unit, including the DSC emergency button. So if I am solo sailing and fall overboard with it, my automatic life vest will inflate and I can push the DSC button on the wireless mike. So I got that going for me

 

[Squadron]

Thanks again for all the advice folks! It's great to know some model names to look at and get the variety of opinions.

I'll definitely go for a fixed model once I can get the time to install it properly, but for now I think I'm gonna stick with a handheld (I just don't have the time to do the installation this weekend).

 

[BobM]

If you just want one as a back up I'll mail you my (very) old one if you wish. Works fine, but I want the DSC capability.

 

[Maine Sail]

Some so-called marine coax has a significant power loss compared with good quality RG213 and as it ages, the loss increases.

Don,

Can you expand a little on this comment?

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Maine Sail
As you may know, all coax, like most things, isn't created equally. As example, some use an inferior dielectric, some use a less dense braid, some use an outer shield prone to degradation under normal ambient conditions and some are guilty of combining various of these qualities and which are also sold innocently by marine stores for use on boats.
I hesitate to suggest my preferred type as it may be considered over-kill by some but the type I prefer and with which I compare others is Times LMR coax. About the only animal which is better is hardline coax.

If you are interested, you can compare the loss characteristics at VHF of various type coax on their web site or elsewhere.


Both (flexible Times and hardline) have been in routine service on my ham radio towers and boats for decades with little measurable degradation or loss.
The white coax RG8u and RG8 my neighborhood marine store sells and marketed for marine use has a much higher loss, much less dense braid and is awkward to fit to coax connectors which is a common malady particularly for anyone not used to soldering coax without melting the dielectric or wafer inside the connector or both.

In short, I would say in order of quality, hardline, Times and then non-contaminating outer shield Belden RG213 and preferable to everything else.

 

[Bill Roosa]

wattage and coax

wattage does not determine range. Antenna height does. Hams get round the world (8000 miles) on less than 10 watts quite often. Course they have well made antennas on both ends and are bouncing their waves off the ionosphere but that is just technique. Having a mirror 30 miles up to bounce you signal off of gives you more range. Having more power just lets you walk on weaker signals.
I almost never use 25 watts on my mounted radio as I never need it with the antenna sticking 63 ft over the water.
Coax cable selection is very important at VHF frequencies. You can loose 1/2 or more of your power just going from the transmitter to the antenna with cheap coax. More importantl is you loose over half your signal from the antenna to the receiver. So if you are spendig money spend it on an average transmitter and a great reciever and install it right. Bigger diameter is better and more expensive is usually worth it.

 

[MKirk51]

Here's a link to a coax calculator:
http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm
I pulled my mast a couple winters ago and replaced the antenna and all the wiring and lights. I switched from thin stuff (RG8, RG58, I forget) and went to thick stuff. If I remember right it was Belden 9913 (the flexible version). I had an outfit make it up for me as I don't have the proper tools and bad connections mean signal loss. The original had two pieces connected with a barrel connector to make it easier to pull the keel-stepped mast. I went with just one piece because each connector also means signal loss. I wanna be able to reach out as far as possible. Safety first, or was I just being anal? It'll be a pain to pull the mast now because I'll have to feed all that cable back thru the bulkheads but I ordinarily store with the mast up so it's not that big of a deal.

 

[Stu Jackson]

A $$-making idea

I just purchased a hand held Standard Horizon HX850S .. features weather, DSC and GPS so no interconnection is necessary and one button (under cover) emergency call activation.

Wow, if that's the case, why don't they simply make the fixed mount radios with these integrated features. That would certainly avoid the monthly requests on this board which go like: "How do I connect my GPS to my VHF for DSC?" topics.

A small puck type GPS built into the VHF down below with no wires to connect.

How simple.

Two years from now: I shoulda made that to make my fortune.

OK, who's in this with me?:dance:

 

[Maine Sail]

Maine Sail
As you may know, all coax, like most things, isn't created equally. As example, some use an inferior dielectric, some use a less dense braid, some use an outer shield prone to degradation under normal ambient conditions and some are guilty of combining various of these qualities and which are also sold innocently by marine stores for use on boats.
I hesitate to suggest my preferred type as it may be considered over-kill by some but the type I prefer and with which I compare others is Times LMR coax. About the only animal which is better is hardline coax.

If you are interested, you can compare the loss characteristics at VHF of various type coax on their web site or elsewhere.


Both (flexible Times and hardline) have been in routine service on my ham radio towers and boats for decades with little measurable degradation or loss.
The white coax RG8u and RG8 my neighborhood marine store sells and marketed for marine use has a much higher loss, much less dense braid and is awkward to fit to coax connectors which is a common malady particularly for anyone not used to soldering coax without melting the dielectric or wafer inside the connector or both.

In short, I would say in order of quality, hardline, Times and then non-contaminating outer shield Belden RG213 and preferable to everything else.

I think I found a new coax! Are you using the LMR 400 Ultra Flex?

As one who is not a Ham it is good to find out about these products. My buddy Paul is a Ham and he scoffed at my RG-213 when we showed up at the mast rack to re-wire our masts on the same day.

I nearly set it aside and used what he was using but I had already bought it. Paul has a neat little black box that magically tests the finished wire with connectors, though I forget what it was called. I'd like to get one so I'll need to ask him what it is called. It looked quite expensive, I'm sure it was. He was quite surprised, as was I, after his sneers at my Ancor coax, that it tested out nearly identically to his? It will be interesting to put his black box on it this spring and see if there is any loss.

I do like the additional features of the LMR stuff and I for one will not quibble over having the best there is on my VHF antenna. Of course not much is over kill for me when it comes to safety. I may swap out my one year old Ancor stuff this spring as it takes me about a half hour total to do so. I did not find the Times LMR stuff to be that outrageously expensive?

I did not have a tough time fitting RG-8 or RG-213 PL-259 connectors onto my anchor stuff at all and the loss was similar to Paul's but I still don't think it is the quality of the Times LMR.

Some Ham's at my local electronics/radio shop talked my into crimp/solder connectors (crimp the shield, solder the tip) with the purpose made crimper (like I needed another crimper). So far so good and they have performed flawlessly for me. The guys were raving about the connectors and I do believe they are made by Times as they were not cheap.....

Good info!!

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

I think I found a new coax! Are you using the LMR 400 Ultra Flex?

As one who is not a Ham it is good to find out about these products. My buddy Paul is a Ham and he scoffed at my RG-213 when we showed up at the mast rack to re-wire our masts on the same day.

I nearly set it aside and used what he was using but I had already bought it. Paul has a neat little black box that magically tests the finished wire with connectors, though I forget what it was called.

I can't be sure naturally but it sounds like he used an impedance bridge - if so, they go anywhere from $100 to $400 depending on resonance tuning need, capacitance testing, etc... a wide selection are made my MFJ which some believe means "mighty fancy junk".
Not the best but will give you an idea what's out there and cost.

There is a wide variety of RG-213 coax quality but, regardless, likely not worth trashing after one year unless you have other reasons.

 

[Prime Time]

Can you hear me now?

I agree that height is important since VHF is line of sight, but doesn't power have some effect? Some VHFs have lower power settings for in port. I was under the impression that it could reduce the range. However, greater power ultimately will max out at the line of sight distance?

wattage does not determine range. Antenna height does. Hams get round the world (8000 miles) on less than 10 watts quite often. Course they have well made antennas on both ends and are bouncing their waves off the ionosphere but that is just technique. Having a mirror 30 miles up to bounce you signal off of gives you more range. Having more power just lets you walk on weaker signals.
I almost never use 25 watts on my mounted radio as I never need it with the antenna sticking 63 ft over the water.
Coax cable selection is very important at VHF frequencies. You can loose 1/2 or more of your power just going from the transmitter to the antenna with cheap coax. More importantl is you loose over half your signal from the antenna to the receiver. So if you are spendig money spend it on an average transmitter and a great reciever and install it right. Bigger diameter is better and more expensive is usually worth it.

 

[Scott B]

Scott
We're on the same "wavelength"

Handhelds certainly have their uses but depending on one for assistance in an emergency is not a wise choice for a place to economize., esp if it is the only radio someone has. It should be considered as a redundant tool, not a primary one.

Don, agreed... we're both agreeing on the same point... no need to be

 

[Bill Roosa]

What does more power give you

In a noisy environment it can blast over the noise. In a quiet environment it has no advantage.
You use low power in port so you don't over drive the other receivers that are close by and get garbled sound on their box when you key your mike at 25 watts. Kinda like yelling into the mike and no one can understand you.
As a general rule you should use the lowest power needed to make the connection. Shift to higher power when you encounter noise and need a stronger signal to make the distant receiver hear you and not the noise.
The situation of handy talkies (HT) that are low power being accused of reduced range is not one of insufficient power it is of inefficient antenna design (rubber duck type) and the typically lower height that they have to operate at. Put a 1/2 wave dipole antenna on one of these HTs and you will be surprised at the range increase you get even at a low height.
Lest you think a better antenna will let you get more range because it lets you get more power out, you get better range because while the transmitted range does not change much the received range goes way up because you are gathering more signal for the receiver.

 

[sailaway78]

Another opinion

Just a thought for you, but I with the circumstances that you have stated, I would go for a handheld first, if money is a concern, and you have to purchase one at a time. My reasoning. In fairly close in situations, especially if you are singlehanding, a handheld can be right there with you. With a fixed mount, you will have it inside, and have to leave the helm in order to call anyone, or to hear it well for that matter. Leaving the helm in any position with bridges, or other boats nearby is not a good idea. For example if you need to call a bridge tender, you don't want to do it till you are fairly close to the bridge. In this circumstance, you are more than likely in a fairly narrow channel, and are likely to have other boats close to you. Not a good time to have to go down inside to use the radio. There are many models available, with the RAM mikes, that allow the radio inside the cabin, and the mike and speaker in the cockpit. Some of these are pretty good, and some flat suck. All are a little more on the pricey side than a regular fixed mount. Ideally you should have both a fixed mount and a handheld. As for brands, I have a Uniden handheld, that I have had for over five years, and it has been very satisfactory.

 

[jibes138]

Couple thoughts

Wow, just checked prices at Defender. Low end handheld about 89 bucks, low end DSC radio about 85 bucks. Add an antenna and some wire and for 200 bucks you can have the whole deal.
A few add ons to consider. i use a portable speaker to broadcast my radio into the cockpit so I can hear it I got the speaker about 15 years ago at radio shack. It plugs into a jack on the radio (Standard Horizon Spectrum) and works great.
I also have a small backup antenna, this is in case the masthead antenna fails (like an ICW bridge ripping it off) I can just plug it into the radio and mount it on the coach rooof. Granted a little less range than a masthead but good for piece of mind. Also small power boats don't have a mast and still broadcast pretty well for 10 miles or so. So an option is to mount the antenna on the stern rail as a much simpler installation that stepping the mast etc.