I read about vents for the holding tank and wonder where the vent is located on a 1989 Hunter 30. Not having any problems at this time but....
- Status
My 1989 H30 has the holding tank located under the counter in the head, right beside the toilet. The vent goes straight up to a thru hull in the shelf/locker. This exists on the port side, aft of the point of maximum beam. All the hoses are very short, which is good. The drawback is that the tank capacity is fairly small. BTW, the boat also had a "T" fitting to an overboard holding tank discharge, which I disconnected this sprig since it is illegal on the Great Lakes where I sail.
How bout trying a flashlight!
Heres andy easy way to find where your vent line outlet goes to.. Start at the tank and follow it with your "eyes" and a flash light. If you lose sight of it, try to relocate the color/type of hose past the point you lose it. Waste vent lines usually end up in an anchor well, or amidships, depending on the plumbing. Simplistic questions like these from boat owners like you scare me when I am out sailing among you.
Heres andy easy way to find where your vent line outlet goes to.. Start at the tank and follow it with your "eyes" and a flash light. If you lose sight of it, try to relocate the color/type of hose past the point you lose it. Waste vent lines usually end up in an anchor well, or amidships, depending on the plumbing. Simplistic questions like these from boat owners like you scare me when I am out sailing among you.
Simple question
To me, any question is worth asking. Tapping into others knowledge goes along with figuring out problems on your own. Ever hear of "two heads are better than one"? You should be more tolerant of others that are less experienced. I have been sailing for 15 years and have met sailors with your feelings. It is what keeps some people away from the joy.
To me, any question is worth asking. Tapping into others knowledge goes along with figuring out problems on your own. Ever hear of "two heads are better than one"? You should be more tolerant of others that are less experienced. I have been sailing for 15 years and have met sailors with your feelings. It is what keeps some people away from the joy.
I too am apalled that...
...so many boat owners just take to the water without first familiarizing themselves with their boats and knowing the at least the locations--much less the condition--of every system...and who get into trouble as a result. Just in my "speciality" alone--holding tanks overflow and clog the vents because "we didn't know it was full when we left the dock"...and they didn't know the macerator wasn't working either. Fresh water pumps "mysteriously" quit pumping (and they look everywhere BUT the right place for the cause)...water rises in toilets--or it won't pump water at all...and 99% of the questions can be answered, and problems prevented, by reading the manuals--trouble shooting guides and maintenance instructions. It used to be only powerboaters who had a "turn the key and go" mentality...but today, there are just as many sailors who have it...because for the past 20 years boats have been marketed as "all fun, no work...just raise the sail (or turn the key) and go." Dealers don't want buyers to know that owning a boat is a MAJOR investment in time and effort, and requires climbing an enormous learning curve, because they're afraid they'll lose the sale. I once offered to conduct a sanitation system maintenance seminar for a dealer who'd called me because so many of his customers were complaining about odor...he turned me down flat. He'd be glad for me to train his shop people...but he didn't want his customers--and especially any prospective customers--to know that owning a boat might include having to deal with any problems. Boats aren't BOATS any more...they're designed and sold as floating condos. But boats AREN'T just floating condos, with all that implies...condos don't have "systems," but everything ON a boat is a complete system. Once you leave the dock, there are no public utilities...you're 100% dependent upon your OWN onboard electrical, fuel, and plumbing systems...and if you don't know where all the parts are, how they work, and how to maintain them (or even that they require maintenance), you put yourself, your crew and passengers, and your vessel at risk. Not knowing where the holding vent is may seem trivial...but if you haven't made the effort to know that much, what else don't you know about your boat and its systems that could sink it? And the next time some clueless powerboater blows by you, ask yourself HONESTLY if he's really any more clueless than you are. Most things tend to fail in the spring. That's because most things deteriorate more from sitting than from use, and boats sit all winter. Develop a "spring recommissioning" checklist (there's one for plumbing in the refererence library in the Head Mistress forum) and follow it religiously. Read your manuals! If you don't have manuals for everything on the boat, get them...call the mfrs...if they don't have 'em, get 'em from other boat owners. Keep 'em all in an accordian file, organized alphabetically by system--"electronics," "engine," "head," etc. Keep it on the boat. Buy Nigel Calder's "Boat Owners Guide to Mechanical and Electrical Systems"....and keep it on the boat. Buy Chapman's and keep it on the boat. And for Pete's sake, take the time to learn every single inch of your boat! Whether or not it ever saves your life, it will save your day on the water...and besides--there's a lot more satisfaction in becoming a compentent mariner instead of just another clueless weekend warrior.
...so many boat owners just take to the water without first familiarizing themselves with their boats and knowing the at least the locations--much less the condition--of every system...and who get into trouble as a result. Just in my "speciality" alone--holding tanks overflow and clog the vents because "we didn't know it was full when we left the dock"...and they didn't know the macerator wasn't working either. Fresh water pumps "mysteriously" quit pumping (and they look everywhere BUT the right place for the cause)...water rises in toilets--or it won't pump water at all...and 99% of the questions can be answered, and problems prevented, by reading the manuals--trouble shooting guides and maintenance instructions. It used to be only powerboaters who had a "turn the key and go" mentality...but today, there are just as many sailors who have it...because for the past 20 years boats have been marketed as "all fun, no work...just raise the sail (or turn the key) and go." Dealers don't want buyers to know that owning a boat is a MAJOR investment in time and effort, and requires climbing an enormous learning curve, because they're afraid they'll lose the sale. I once offered to conduct a sanitation system maintenance seminar for a dealer who'd called me because so many of his customers were complaining about odor...he turned me down flat. He'd be glad for me to train his shop people...but he didn't want his customers--and especially any prospective customers--to know that owning a boat might include having to deal with any problems. Boats aren't BOATS any more...they're designed and sold as floating condos. But boats AREN'T just floating condos, with all that implies...condos don't have "systems," but everything ON a boat is a complete system. Once you leave the dock, there are no public utilities...you're 100% dependent upon your OWN onboard electrical, fuel, and plumbing systems...and if you don't know where all the parts are, how they work, and how to maintain them (or even that they require maintenance), you put yourself, your crew and passengers, and your vessel at risk. Not knowing where the holding vent is may seem trivial...but if you haven't made the effort to know that much, what else don't you know about your boat and its systems that could sink it? And the next time some clueless powerboater blows by you, ask yourself HONESTLY if he's really any more clueless than you are. Most things tend to fail in the spring. That's because most things deteriorate more from sitting than from use, and boats sit all winter. Develop a "spring recommissioning" checklist (there's one for plumbing in the refererence library in the Head Mistress forum) and follow it religiously. Read your manuals! If you don't have manuals for everything on the boat, get them...call the mfrs...if they don't have 'em, get 'em from other boat owners. Keep 'em all in an accordian file, organized alphabetically by system--"electronics," "engine," "head," etc. Keep it on the boat. Buy Nigel Calder's "Boat Owners Guide to Mechanical and Electrical Systems"....and keep it on the boat. Buy Chapman's and keep it on the boat. And for Pete's sake, take the time to learn every single inch of your boat! Whether or not it ever saves your life, it will save your day on the water...and besides--there's a lot more satisfaction in becoming a compentent mariner instead of just another clueless weekend warrior.
Well, now, Doug...
We were all beginners once...and yes, any question is worth asking...and people should never stop asking questions...but there are many that should be asked before you ever leave the dock for the first time, just as many that it shouldn't be necessary to ask--that a little curiosity and exploration while aboard will answer. After all, would you drive off in a car without knowing where the brake pedal is...how to put it in reverse...what 1, 2, and D mean on the shifter? Otoh, far too many people DO drive their cars for years without a clue as what the gauges mean...or whether, when a light comes on, whether to pull over immediately or it's safe to continue on to the next exit. So I guess it's unreasonable to expect 'em to know at least that much about their boats before heading out to sea. But then, few cars have ever been swallowed up by pavement. It's not immediate lack of expertise that concerns me--much of it only comes with experience...and asking questions is a large part of the learning curve to expertise. It's all those who show no curiosity whatver until something breaks. If you feel that shouldn't keep people away from "the joy," just be sure you apply the same degree of tolerance to the next PWC that creates havoc in your anchorage or powerboat that rocks you so badly that everything on your boat that isn't nailed down falls...'cuz their boats are their joy...and you wouldn't want your intolerance for their lack of knowledge to keep them away from it, would you?
As for
We were all beginners once...and yes, any question is worth asking...and people should never stop asking questions...but there are many that should be asked before you ever leave the dock for the first time, just as many that it shouldn't be necessary to ask--that a little curiosity and exploration while aboard will answer. After all, would you drive off in a car without knowing where the brake pedal is...how to put it in reverse...what 1, 2, and D mean on the shifter? Otoh, far too many people DO drive their cars for years without a clue as what the gauges mean...or whether, when a light comes on, whether to pull over immediately or it's safe to continue on to the next exit. So I guess it's unreasonable to expect 'em to know at least that much about their boats before heading out to sea. But then, few cars have ever been swallowed up by pavement. It's not immediate lack of expertise that concerns me--much of it only comes with experience...and asking questions is a large part of the learning curve to expertise. It's all those who show no curiosity whatver until something breaks. If you feel that shouldn't keep people away from "the joy," just be sure you apply the same degree of tolerance to the next PWC that creates havoc in your anchorage or powerboat that rocks you so badly that everything on your boat that isn't nailed down falls...'cuz their boats are their joy...and you wouldn't want your intolerance for their lack of knowledge to keep them away from it, would you?
As forhead vent odor
Something sure smells bad in this vent line location discussion. Let me see if I got this right. Doug reads something about vents. He asks a question to get some help. A couple of us show him the simple courtesy of answering his question helpfully... and then there are the others. Forgive me, but as I read the "lectures" given by some of us about the ignorance of others of us, I could now help but think of the word "arrogant" to describe those responses. When Doug asks another question (if he ever does-on this website), I'm sure he'll want to ask it in the most sophisticated and arcane language he can muster up for the task so as not to be accused of being an idiot. Where is the good humor and camaraderie that was present in the "marcelon 'cock discussion???
Something sure smells bad in this vent line location discussion. Let me see if I got this right. Doug reads something about vents. He asks a question to get some help. A couple of us show him the simple courtesy of answering his question helpfully... and then there are the others. Forgive me, but as I read the "lectures" given by some of us about the ignorance of others of us, I could now help but think of the word "arrogant" to describe those responses. When Doug asks another question (if he ever does-on this website), I'm sure he'll want to ask it in the most sophisticated and arcane language he can muster up for the task so as not to be accused of being an idiot. Where is the good humor and camaraderie that was present in the "marcelon 'cock discussion???
Teaching as much fun as learing
I'd like to toss my two cents in here. I'm in the middle of finals so I haven't much time for posting this week, but I feel like this is important. Each of us stepped aboard a sailboat for the first time at some point in our lives. We didn't know what all the lines were for (we probably even called them ropes). We didn't know why you couldn't go directly up wind, or how we could go partially up wind. Someone had to tell us. Each of us continues to learn. After sailing off and on for twenty of my twenty-five years, I still learn something everytime I'm out. I recently had someone show me how to heave to effectively, a basic and essential skill I never managed to do well even after all that time. I owe one of the loves of my life to those that had the patience to show me how to sail, and had the nerve to hand me the tiller and the sheet and wait on the dock, or braver still, to come aboard and not second guess my decisions. My greatest joy sailing has become introducing newcomers to the sport. The smile that invarriably is engendered by the first time someone feels the play of the tiller and the tug of the lines is magic. A few years ago I had an antique motorcycle. I eventually sold it in large measure because I got fatigued by the people more interested in trashing modern bikes and snubbing new riders than in riding together and enjoying seeing the miles disappear under the rubber. I hope never to be part of a community shunned by someone who came to enjoy a love and was made to feel inadequate. In addition to playing host on the O'day site, I work for a local marine enterprise. We see daily people who make the same false assumptions over and over. We see those too obtuse to learn. I particularly react to middle-aged men with egos in the form of large boats who refuse to consider that a twenty-five year old junior employee might not only know how to fix whatever's wrong, but might even be able to improve upon it. I need to check that reaction at the door, however. I have my failings, my prides, my prejudices. If I want to not face those aimed at me, I need to subdue those born of me. In the end, we're there to feel the swells and the wind, and perhaps to dream of heading out at the end of the day instead of in. I agree that we should all know our boats inside and out. I can tell you every part of my Catalina, the daysailer, and for what its worth, my Volkswagen as well. When something breaks I can make it work again, at least long enough to deliver my crew and myself to safety. I am scared of the turn-key mentality, too. Powerboater or sailboater. (My only close call so far this season was with a sailboat who assumed I was under power with sails up, as he was, and who drove me toward shore with no room to tack). Primarily, however, I am scared of those who do not know enough, or care enough, to ask questions. And I am tired of those who do not know enough, or care enough, to take at face value interest and curiosity, and to cultivate it. Douglas, I submit to you that your desire to learn about your boat is the beginning of becoming a truly competent skipper. One who can not only drive the boat with skill but who can maintain it and keep it safe for those with whom you choose share your love. I cannot tell you where your vent is, but I can tell you I welcome you in my waters anytime. Fair winds to all, and goodnight. Justin - O'day Owner's Web
I'd like to toss my two cents in here. I'm in the middle of finals so I haven't much time for posting this week, but I feel like this is important. Each of us stepped aboard a sailboat for the first time at some point in our lives. We didn't know what all the lines were for (we probably even called them ropes). We didn't know why you couldn't go directly up wind, or how we could go partially up wind. Someone had to tell us. Each of us continues to learn. After sailing off and on for twenty of my twenty-five years, I still learn something everytime I'm out. I recently had someone show me how to heave to effectively, a basic and essential skill I never managed to do well even after all that time. I owe one of the loves of my life to those that had the patience to show me how to sail, and had the nerve to hand me the tiller and the sheet and wait on the dock, or braver still, to come aboard and not second guess my decisions. My greatest joy sailing has become introducing newcomers to the sport. The smile that invarriably is engendered by the first time someone feels the play of the tiller and the tug of the lines is magic. A few years ago I had an antique motorcycle. I eventually sold it in large measure because I got fatigued by the people more interested in trashing modern bikes and snubbing new riders than in riding together and enjoying seeing the miles disappear under the rubber. I hope never to be part of a community shunned by someone who came to enjoy a love and was made to feel inadequate. In addition to playing host on the O'day site, I work for a local marine enterprise. We see daily people who make the same false assumptions over and over. We see those too obtuse to learn. I particularly react to middle-aged men with egos in the form of large boats who refuse to consider that a twenty-five year old junior employee might not only know how to fix whatever's wrong, but might even be able to improve upon it. I need to check that reaction at the door, however. I have my failings, my prides, my prejudices. If I want to not face those aimed at me, I need to subdue those born of me. In the end, we're there to feel the swells and the wind, and perhaps to dream of heading out at the end of the day instead of in. I agree that we should all know our boats inside and out. I can tell you every part of my Catalina, the daysailer, and for what its worth, my Volkswagen as well. When something breaks I can make it work again, at least long enough to deliver my crew and myself to safety. I am scared of the turn-key mentality, too. Powerboater or sailboater. (My only close call so far this season was with a sailboat who assumed I was under power with sails up, as he was, and who drove me toward shore with no room to tack). Primarily, however, I am scared of those who do not know enough, or care enough, to ask questions. And I am tired of those who do not know enough, or care enough, to take at face value interest and curiosity, and to cultivate it. Douglas, I submit to you that your desire to learn about your boat is the beginning of becoming a truly competent skipper. One who can not only drive the boat with skill but who can maintain it and keep it safe for those with whom you choose share your love. I cannot tell you where your vent is, but I can tell you I welcome you in my waters anytime. Fair winds to all, and goodnight. Justin - O'day Owner's Web
expertise takes time
Come on folks, you want the guy to be a master mariner before he's allowed to set foot on a boat. How long did you eat without having a full knowledge of nutrition, food sanitation, digestive processes, oral hygine, or do you have it yet. Anybody have a full understanding of the exact function of their car, including the complete range interactions that determine the power and efficiency of the vehicle, and the rules of physics that tell us if you can maintain control as well as you think you can. Do you know ALL of the laws regarding opearation of your vehicle, both criminal and civil. And yet you still eat, you still drive. The first and most important thing is understanding that you don't know everything, and having the willingness to learn. Doug demonstrated that. The odds on bet is that he is a competent skipper and boat owner trying to be better. That is the norm for people who are seeking to learn about details such as vent loctations. Your assumptions and declarations that because he did not know, he must necessarily be a dangerously incompetent boater is not only arrogant and rude, but verges on plain stupid. You can do better. Please do. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Come on folks, you want the guy to be a master mariner before he's allowed to set foot on a boat. How long did you eat without having a full knowledge of nutrition, food sanitation, digestive processes, oral hygine, or do you have it yet. Anybody have a full understanding of the exact function of their car, including the complete range interactions that determine the power and efficiency of the vehicle, and the rules of physics that tell us if you can maintain control as well as you think you can. Do you know ALL of the laws regarding opearation of your vehicle, both criminal and civil. And yet you still eat, you still drive. The first and most important thing is understanding that you don't know everything, and having the willingness to learn. Doug demonstrated that. The odds on bet is that he is a competent skipper and boat owner trying to be better. That is the norm for people who are seeking to learn about details such as vent loctations. Your assumptions and declarations that because he did not know, he must necessarily be a dangerously incompetent boater is not only arrogant and rude, but verges on plain stupid. You can do better. Please do. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
I Think We Need Some Patience + Understanding
I am appalled that anyone who makes their living providing a service for others would react in such a poor manner. Must have just been a bad day so we will all excuse her. I certainly would not remain a customer of someone reacted to a legitimate question in such a way. As for the others we all began somewhere and the ones you may want to vex are those not asking the questions and are creating problems out there. Of course if they are belittled in the way Doug was they will continue on in their ignorance afraid to ask for help, and then where will we be. Doug, ask all of the questions you want. You will find that the learning curve becomes steeper as your knowledge grows. That my friend is one of the joys of boating. If someone reacts to your "silly" question in a hostile manner SCREW THEM they are either a jerk or not so sure of their understanding that they will build themselves up by putting you down. I am sure there are many subjects that you have a much greater knowledge of than do those idiots out there who would give you a hard time. Sermon complete.
I am appalled that anyone who makes their living providing a service for others would react in such a poor manner. Must have just been a bad day so we will all excuse her. I certainly would not remain a customer of someone reacted to a legitimate question in such a way. As for the others we all began somewhere and the ones you may want to vex are those not asking the questions and are creating problems out there. Of course if they are belittled in the way Doug was they will continue on in their ignorance afraid to ask for help, and then where will we be. Doug, ask all of the questions you want. You will find that the learning curve becomes steeper as your knowledge grows. That my friend is one of the joys of boating. If someone reacts to your "silly" question in a hostile manner SCREW THEM they are either a jerk or not so sure of their understanding that they will build themselves up by putting you down. I am sure there are many subjects that you have a much greater knowledge of than do those idiots out there who would give you a hard time. Sermon complete.
Oh wow!
It would appear that some have spent all their time with the systems manuals and none on the civility manual. Damn, "Clueless Weekend Warrior" would have been a perfect boat name!
It would appear that some have spent all their time with the systems manuals and none on the civility manual. Damn, "Clueless Weekend Warrior" would have been a perfect boat name!
Experts
What an interesting thread. I have met more than one expert, professional and otherwise who did not always have the right answer. Any response can be civil or condescending and those with the most knowledge should be the most civil and helpful. Unfortunately, this is apparently not the case. A friend of mine had the same boat as Doug and guess what, a vent was not installed at the time of manufacture. Now is Doug's question that simplistic? I don't think so. There is not one of us that can not be stumped about some aspect of sailing so it is a continous learning process. We all have different strengths and should work to develope our individual weaknesses into strong points. One of my weaknesses is spelling so I don't want to get slammed for that. Once this forum starts being crtical of those asking questions then I will check out. I do believe that most of the experts and non-experts are willing to help anybody who asks without being sarcastic and just plain mean. Eric
What an interesting thread. I have met more than one expert, professional and otherwise who did not always have the right answer. Any response can be civil or condescending and those with the most knowledge should be the most civil and helpful. Unfortunately, this is apparently not the case. A friend of mine had the same boat as Doug and guess what, a vent was not installed at the time of manufacture. Now is Doug's question that simplistic? I don't think so. There is not one of us that can not be stumped about some aspect of sailing so it is a continous learning process. We all have different strengths and should work to develope our individual weaknesses into strong points. One of my weaknesses is spelling so I don't want to get slammed for that. Once this forum starts being crtical of those asking questions then I will check out. I do believe that most of the experts and non-experts are willing to help anybody who asks without being sarcastic and just plain mean. Eric
Learning never ends...
And besides failing to notice that it was Bob, not Doug, who posted the tank vent question, y'all have missed Doug's and my point. Somewhere between total oblivion to anything about a boat and "seasoned ol' salt" is enough basic knowledge to keep you safe...and it's really no more than is taught in the CG Aux and US Power Squadron boating safety courses. Those courses include far more than just the Rule of the Road...they include everything from simple maintenance to weather to how to tie the 2 or 3 necessary knots--and everything in between. It worries me that so many people leave the dock without even knowing where their seacocks are, much less whether they're open or closed...what if the boat starts taking on water? Or that someone could pump out a holding tank and not bother to check to see whether it actually emptied or not. That won't sink the boat, but it can certainly mess up (sometimes literally) a weekend. I had to learn the hard that they give you owner's manuals for everything onboard for a reason...a lesson that cost me $3600 for an engine rebuild, when a few minutes reading the engine owners manual--even though I don't do my own engine maintenance--would only have cost me about $150 for a new fuel pump...'cuz I'd have known enough not to run the engine after I checked the oil (which I was taught do before leaving the dock each time in the first boating safety course I ever took) and discovered it was about a pint too high--at least till I had a mechanic investigate further. So it's not arrogance...it's first hand knowledge of how important it is to know your way around your boat...and how expensive--even dangerous--it can be not to.
And besides failing to notice that it was Bob, not Doug, who posted the tank vent question, y'all have missed Doug's and my point. Somewhere between total oblivion to anything about a boat and "seasoned ol' salt" is enough basic knowledge to keep you safe...and it's really no more than is taught in the CG Aux and US Power Squadron boating safety courses. Those courses include far more than just the Rule of the Road...they include everything from simple maintenance to weather to how to tie the 2 or 3 necessary knots--and everything in between. It worries me that so many people leave the dock without even knowing where their seacocks are, much less whether they're open or closed...what if the boat starts taking on water? Or that someone could pump out a holding tank and not bother to check to see whether it actually emptied or not. That won't sink the boat, but it can certainly mess up (sometimes literally) a weekend. I had to learn the hard that they give you owner's manuals for everything onboard for a reason...a lesson that cost me $3600 for an engine rebuild, when a few minutes reading the engine owners manual--even though I don't do my own engine maintenance--would only have cost me about $150 for a new fuel pump...'cuz I'd have known enough not to run the engine after I checked the oil (which I was taught do before leaving the dock each time in the first boating safety course I ever took) and discovered it was about a pint too high--at least till I had a mechanic investigate further. So it's not arrogance...it's first hand knowledge of how important it is to know your way around your boat...and how expensive--even dangerous--it can be not to.
peggie your wrong !
first of all read the quetion, it was doug that asked the origanal question. i am amazed that only a coulpe of people were able to answer a very simple question posted by doug, i can understand Jmalt's responce he' probly just a very unhappy person, but as for you peggie hall, you have your own forum on this site, but if you dont want to answer a simple question without chastizing someone why should phil give you your own forum. and finnally did you really know where the holding tank vent was the first time you went sailing?
first of all read the quetion, it was doug that asked the origanal question. i am amazed that only a coulpe of people were able to answer a very simple question posted by doug, i can understand Jmalt's responce he' probly just a very unhappy person, but as for you peggie hall, you have your own forum on this site, but if you dont want to answer a simple question without chastizing someone why should phil give you your own forum. and finnally did you really know where the holding tank vent was the first time you went sailing?
I'm sorry that some of you are offended...
...by the idea that it's dangerous to leave the dock without the slightest idea of what to do if something goes wrong--worse yet, what HAS gone wrong--or even without knowing for certain that the boat is ready to leave the dock. I don't always put things as tactfully as I might...it's a failing I readily admit. But I wasn't attacking Bob for not knowing where his holding tank vent is...although I do think he'd have learned a lot more about his boat if he'd gone looking for it--and everything else on his boat--himself.. I didn't even respond to his question, 'cuz there's no way I could know where the vent is without seeing his boat. I used Doug's response as a springboard to make what I consider a very important point: if you're gonna be safe out there, it's essential to know at least the locations of everything on your boat, and the basics of how everything works. .and your reactions only brought to mind the wives who complain about being "yelled at" while sailing... Ok...so I "yelled at" you. But I've pulled enough people out of the water to consider the point important enough to take the heat for not making it more gently. And now that several of you have jumped down my throat, I have a question: Why is it so easy for sailors to be 100% forgiving of other sailors' inexperience and lack of knowledge...but 100% UNforgiving of the same inexperience and lack of knowledge on the part of PWC and powerboat operators? How is it that sailors are "entitled" to THEIR "joy" without even the basic knowledge that could save their day on the water, if not their boats or even their lives...but not powerboaters and PWC operators? How can you expect more of them than of each other? And that's an honest question, btw...I wonder if you've ever thought about it in those terms.
...by the idea that it's dangerous to leave the dock without the slightest idea of what to do if something goes wrong--worse yet, what HAS gone wrong--or even without knowing for certain that the boat is ready to leave the dock. I don't always put things as tactfully as I might...it's a failing I readily admit. But I wasn't attacking Bob for not knowing where his holding tank vent is...although I do think he'd have learned a lot more about his boat if he'd gone looking for it--and everything else on his boat--himself.. I didn't even respond to his question, 'cuz there's no way I could know where the vent is without seeing his boat. I used Doug's response as a springboard to make what I consider a very important point: if you're gonna be safe out there, it's essential to know at least the locations of everything on your boat, and the basics of how everything works. .and your reactions only brought to mind the wives who complain about being "yelled at" while sailing... Ok...so I "yelled at" you. But I've pulled enough people out of the water to consider the point important enough to take the heat for not making it more gently. And now that several of you have jumped down my throat, I have a question: Why is it so easy for sailors to be 100% forgiving of other sailors' inexperience and lack of knowledge...but 100% UNforgiving of the same inexperience and lack of knowledge on the part of PWC and powerboat operators? How is it that sailors are "entitled" to THEIR "joy" without even the basic knowledge that could save their day on the water, if not their boats or even their lives...but not powerboaters and PWC operators? How can you expect more of them than of each other? And that's an honest question, btw...I wonder if you've ever thought about it in those terms.
110% Forgiving
I have always tried to be forgiving and helpful of those who are interested in improving how they do something and in learning something new. It would not matter if they were on a canoe, pirogue, rowboat PWC, Bass Boat, etc. If they are not considerate or uninterested I should probably try to help once (most often I just stay away) just as others have done for me. I was not always the best receiver of advice either sometimes it may have just been out of embarrassment but now being older and wiser I know there is more out there to learn than I'll ever know. With that gentle encouragement lets go have a beer and see what we can learn from one another.
I have always tried to be forgiving and helpful of those who are interested in improving how they do something and in learning something new. It would not matter if they were on a canoe, pirogue, rowboat PWC, Bass Boat, etc. If they are not considerate or uninterested I should probably try to help once (most often I just stay away) just as others have done for me. I was not always the best receiver of advice either sometimes it may have just been out of embarrassment but now being older and wiser I know there is more out there to learn than I'll ever know. With that gentle encouragement lets go have a beer and see what we can learn from one another.
I stand corrected, Ted...
I only looked at the list of replies and saw Bob's name at the bottom of it...AND didn't realize there were two Doug's posting. 'Twas actually Jmalt's post which provided the springboard for my comments... So, I can't even tell the players WITH a scorecard...and I'm not always tactful. Anything else while it's still my turn in the barrel?)
I only looked at the list of replies and saw Bob's name at the bottom of it...AND didn't realize there were two Doug's posting. 'Twas actually Jmalt's post which provided the springboard for my comments... So, I can't even tell the players WITH a scorecard...and I'm not always tactful. Anything else while it's still my turn in the barrel?
)This all started when
I bought a bottle of K.O. to use in my holding tank...... and I had read that without good ventilation the product would not be able to work. I bought my Hunter 30 last year. I motor sailed it from New Bern, N.C to Oriental, N.C. where it was hauled and had bottom work work done. It was then moved inland to Kerr Lake, N.C. where she had been "living" since last June of '99. On the way to the slip from the launching ramp, the engine over heated - and the learning began. Since then I have replaced the fresh water impeller, replaced the mixing elbow (which was the cause of the overheating), have replaced a leaking fuel pump, have changed all filters (air, fuel and oil), all fluids (antifreeze and oil). I have repacked the stuffing box and aligned the shaft which took care off a terrible knocking noise when motoring above 2200 rpm - have installed a WP30C auto pilot - installed an EZ Jax easy jack system - installed an accessory four switch DC circuit panel and several other jobs. I am an incompetent sailor that doesn't know anything about my boat? No. But I have a lot to learn and I love to check out the HOW for information. Heck, I have even offered advice on questions myself. I guess the answer to the vent question was a bit too obvious but sitting 72 miles from the boat at 10 PM and reading on the bottle of K.O. about needing oxygen for the critters to do their job, I thought "why not ask the experts?". Jmalt's reply came across as an insult to me and I shouldn't have let it bother me. He may not want me sailing around him in the Pugent Sound but he would be welcome to sail in my waters. And I would have thought Peggie would understand but she hammered me too! And the Head Mistress forum starts off "controversial, confounding and down right terrifying marine systems......." Peggie would be welcome also. Peggie made a good analogy to automobiles. I have been a auto technician for 22 years and am a Automotive Service Excellence certified technician. I too have been surprised over the years by owners that don't know anything more than to put gas in their cars and drive. I had an owner of a VW rabbit that didn't realize the vehicle needed engine coolant - they thought all VW's were air cooled. I have never belittled anyone for not knowing about the working of their automobiles - that is my job - to help them and teach them. I came from the Hobie Way of Life. Having raced a Hobie Cat for the past 16 years and I have seen changes in the sport. 100 boat regattas are now 25 boat regattas. And a "C" fleet is non existent in a lot of Divisions. I always tried to make newcomers feel at home. We must be tolerant of newcomers. I never have cared for the "Blue Blazer" crowds way of thinking. Thanks to all who "stood up" for me. In the words of the infamous Rodney King, "can't we all just get along?" peace
I bought a bottle of K.O. to use in my holding tank...... and I had read that without good ventilation the product would not be able to work. I bought my Hunter 30 last year. I motor sailed it from New Bern, N.C to Oriental, N.C. where it was hauled and had bottom work work done. It was then moved inland to Kerr Lake, N.C. where she had been "living" since last June of '99. On the way to the slip from the launching ramp, the engine over heated - and the learning began. Since then I have replaced the fresh water impeller, replaced the mixing elbow (which was the cause of the overheating), have replaced a leaking fuel pump, have changed all filters (air, fuel and oil), all fluids (antifreeze and oil). I have repacked the stuffing box and aligned the shaft which took care off a terrible knocking noise when motoring above 2200 rpm - have installed a WP30C auto pilot - installed an EZ Jax easy jack system - installed an accessory four switch DC circuit panel and several other jobs. I am an incompetent sailor that doesn't know anything about my boat? No. But I have a lot to learn and I love to check out the HOW for information. Heck, I have even offered advice on questions myself. I guess the answer to the vent question was a bit too obvious but sitting 72 miles from the boat at 10 PM and reading on the bottle of K.O. about needing oxygen for the critters to do their job, I thought "why not ask the experts?". Jmalt's reply came across as an insult to me and I shouldn't have let it bother me. He may not want me sailing around him in the Pugent Sound but he would be welcome to sail in my waters. And I would have thought Peggie would understand but she hammered me too! And the Head Mistress forum starts off "controversial, confounding and down right terrifying marine systems......." Peggie would be welcome also. Peggie made a good analogy to automobiles. I have been a auto technician for 22 years and am a Automotive Service Excellence certified technician. I too have been surprised over the years by owners that don't know anything more than to put gas in their cars and drive. I had an owner of a VW rabbit that didn't realize the vehicle needed engine coolant - they thought all VW's were air cooled. I have never belittled anyone for not knowing about the working of their automobiles - that is my job - to help them and teach them. I came from the Hobie Way of Life. Having raced a Hobie Cat for the past 16 years and I have seen changes in the sport. 100 boat regattas are now 25 boat regattas. And a "C" fleet is non existent in a lot of Divisions. I always tried to make newcomers feel at home. We must be tolerant of newcomers. I never have cared for the "Blue Blazer" crowds way of thinking. Thanks to all who "stood up" for me. In the words of the infamous Rodney King, "can't we all just get along?" peace
Vent BS
I have always considered this forum so helpful in asking ANY question of our fellow sailors. This vent issue is degrading for everyone. Sometimes the biggest problem is not the original issue, but rather our efforts defending that position. Just think about it...... it is time to move forward and dissolve this issue. An honorable man(woman) would make the appropriate apology for a momentary lack of judgement and it is over. Rise above this crap for the good of the forum and don't let your ego get in the way.
I have always considered this forum so helpful in asking ANY question of our fellow sailors. This vent issue is degrading for everyone. Sometimes the biggest problem is not the original issue, but rather our efforts defending that position. Just think about it...... it is time to move forward and dissolve this issue. An honorable man(woman) would make the appropriate apology for a momentary lack of judgement and it is over. Rise above this crap for the good of the forum and don't let your ego get in the way.
No Flames
Apologies cheerfully accepted. Open flames on a vessel (sometimes caused by improper venting)can be deadly. On a forum such as this, they are, by custom and convention, prohibited. In my 'day' job, I give legal advice to real property attorneys. These are well educated, experienced professionals who sometimes ask very basic questions. I am pleased that they do so because it improves our profession and makes me rethink the fudementals myself. As a thirty plus year sailor and 20 plus year attorney, I'd like to share a little perspective. Manuals today, are written more to protect the manufacturor than to inform the consumer. "Keep fingers clear of turning belts and pulleys" . FW&SS, Chris.
Apologies cheerfully accepted. Open flames on a vessel (sometimes caused by improper venting
)can be deadly. On a forum such as this, they are, by custom and convention, prohibited. In my 'day' job, I give legal advice to real property attorneys. These are well educated, experienced professionals who sometimes ask very basic questions. I am pleased that they do so because it improves our profession and makes me rethink the fudementals myself. As a thirty plus year sailor and 20 plus year attorney, I'd like to share a little perspective. Manuals today, are written more to protect the manufacturor than to inform the consumer. "Keep fingers clear of turning belts and pulleys" . FW&SS, Chris.- Status