I'm looking at buying a sail boat, and I'm finding that a boat that has been on long trips and even blue water passages is held as a badge of honor. So my question is..... as long as the boat is well maintained does the amount of use play a factor in resale, or is it better to find a boat that has been used little? Like in buying a car you look for low miles and good maintenance, but with a boat are miles used as a measure of capability?
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Less use is better.
Things wear out on boats just like cars. Sails, rigging, engines, they all wear the more you use them. Just because a boat sucessfully made one ocean voyage doesn't mean that it in condition to make another. The same with air planes.
Things wear out on boats just like cars. Sails, rigging, engines, they all wear the more you use them. Just because a boat sucessfully made one ocean voyage doesn't mean that it in condition to make another. The same with air planes.
In large part the answer also depends on the
brand of the boat. A Hunter that has never been more than a half day away from her home port and then only rarely is probably going to be a better buy than a Hunter of the same size and cosmetic condition that has been sailed to Bermuda twice each year since she was launched. Keep in mind that some boats are designed and built with sailing to far away places as an expected use. Long distance cruising boats often have a much different shape below the water line than do the coastal and daysailers that are so popular. The long distance designed boat won't seem or be as spacious as the boats designed for the local use.
brand of the boat. A Hunter that has never been more than a half day away from her home port and then only rarely is probably going to be a better buy than a Hunter of the same size and cosmetic condition that has been sailed to Bermuda twice each year since she was launched. Keep in mind that some boats are designed and built with sailing to far away places as an expected use. Long distance cruising boats often have a much different shape below the water line than do the coastal and daysailers that are so popular. The long distance designed boat won't seem or be as spacious as the boats designed for the local use.
Repair and Upgrades add Value
I'd also look for evidence of the repairs an upgrades that an owner has put into a particular model by comparing similar models. Maybe it sat at the dock and got limited use and no attention; or traveled offshore and has newer rigging and larger winches, upgraded anchoring and batteries, etc. A boat that may have been raced might have been used 'harder', but probably had its running rigging upgraded, maybe more electronics, a vang and better winches added, probably has more than one set of sails, but maybe a lot more preventative maintenance and the bottom is likely in better condition than one that sat at the dock Find out what the typical problems are for that boat: ie.,fuel , water or holding tanks may need replacement.
I'd also look for evidence of the repairs an upgrades that an owner has put into a particular model by comparing similar models. Maybe it sat at the dock and got limited use and no attention; or traveled offshore and has newer rigging and larger winches, upgraded anchoring and batteries, etc. A boat that may have been raced might have been used 'harder', but probably had its running rigging upgraded, maybe more electronics, a vang and better winches added, probably has more than one set of sails, but maybe a lot more preventative maintenance and the bottom is likely in better condition than one that sat at the dock Find out what the typical problems are for that boat: ie.,fuel , water or holding tanks may need replacement.
Wear and tear
Look for wear and tear throughout the boat and think in terms of typical usage. Most people tied up in marinas use their boats on weekends and holidays with a couple of week long trips thrown in per season. Now consider a boat that's been lived aboard and cruised long distances 365 days a year. It doesn't take much to do the math and imagine the difference in wear and tear. I believe the brokers use terms like "blue water boat" and "able circumnavigator" as a way of indicating the boat is well built. To me it's an indication she's well worn.
Look for wear and tear throughout the boat and think in terms of typical usage. Most people tied up in marinas use their boats on weekends and holidays with a couple of week long trips thrown in per season. Now consider a boat that's been lived aboard and cruised long distances 365 days a year. It doesn't take much to do the math and imagine the difference in wear and tear. I believe the brokers use terms like "blue water boat" and "able circumnavigator" as a way of indicating the boat is well built. To me it's an indication she's well worn.
Signs of wear and tear are also indicators
of the attitude of the owners. The type of wear can tell you if it was normal use or if it was neglect and abuse. I was talking to a homeowner about cars the other day and he had traded a 10 year old subaru car because of oil leaks. I asked why he didn't just have them fixed and he said the the mechanic told him that it would be easier to say where it wasn't leaking than to name all of the places where it did leak. Those leaks didn't all happen at the same time. So it would seem that he simply neglected the little leaks until they multiplied. Had he tended to the leaks as they appeared he wouldn't have had a major problem.. The same thing will happen in boats. Minor things will go bad and be ignored until there are too many to continue to ingore. Then the owner will get an estimate for repairs and decide to sell rather than spend THAT much money on a ten year old boat
of the attitude of the owners. The type of wear can tell you if it was normal use or if it was neglect and abuse. I was talking to a homeowner about cars the other day and he had traded a 10 year old subaru car because of oil leaks. I asked why he didn't just have them fixed and he said the the mechanic told him that it would be easier to say where it wasn't leaking than to name all of the places where it did leak. Those leaks didn't all happen at the same time. So it would seem that he simply neglected the little leaks until they multiplied. Had he tended to the leaks as they appeared he wouldn't have had a major problem.. The same thing will happen in boats. Minor things will go bad and be ignored until there are too many to continue to ingore. Then the owner will get an estimate for repairs and decide to sell rather than spend THAT much money on a ten year old boat
Right on the money
Your right on the money. I often cruise through boats for sale on yachtworld and you can pick up signs of neglect or just indifference from the pics displayed. I've seen oil diapers lying beneath engines that were filthy. I don't use one because if my engine develops a leak I fix it. Others don't care and would rather just wipe it up periodically. If they don't tend to the simple things then what do they do with the major issues that occur? I wouldn't have any problems buying a boat with a lot use and hours if I knew the previous owner was anal about their maintenance. Likewise there are some that are just a few years old that I wouldn't touch due to uncaring owners. It pays to look for signs of care and upkeep. How did they run wires? Install additional devices? How neat and clean are the galley and head cabinets/lockers? Look in the bilges, are they clean? How are the lines kept in the cockpit and at the mast? How banged up are the rubrail and stanchions? All tell tale signs of either care or neglect. You don't need a surveyor to tell you how she's been kept, just open your eyes.
Your right on the money. I often cruise through boats for sale on yachtworld and you can pick up signs of neglect or just indifference from the pics displayed. I've seen oil diapers lying beneath engines that were filthy. I don't use one because if my engine develops a leak I fix it. Others don't care and would rather just wipe it up periodically. If they don't tend to the simple things then what do they do with the major issues that occur? I wouldn't have any problems buying a boat with a lot use and hours if I knew the previous owner was anal about their maintenance. Likewise there are some that are just a few years old that I wouldn't touch due to uncaring owners. It pays to look for signs of care and upkeep. How did they run wires? Install additional devices? How neat and clean are the galley and head cabinets/lockers? Look in the bilges, are they clean? How are the lines kept in the cockpit and at the mast? How banged up are the rubrail and stanchions? All tell tale signs of either care or neglect. You don't need a surveyor to tell you how she's been kept, just open your eyes.
surveyor, yes unless you know what to look for
I was in the market for an O'day 25 or 26. I found a 1984 26 footer owned by a doctor. The boat was nice and shiney. I had it surveyed and discovered some small and 2 large areas of core damage from leakage. one was a 3 square foot area on the port side of the tabernacle. the other was the whole bow area from just behind the stem fitting back to a point about 1 foot infront of the start of the cabin roof. Oh yeah, both chainplate areas also. I asked how long the starboard chain plate had leaked. The doctor said about two years but only a cup or two to the bilge per rainstorm. I stopped the survey at that point which was an estimated $2600. I initially thought I was going to buy the boat that day but went home very very disappoined as was the doctor. He had no clue about his deck and said no hardware had ever been rebedded and didn't know the water leakage was a problem. I have since purchased a 1976 25 footer that had a water tite deck that had been rebedded but not by the current owner. he also was unaware of deck fitting leakage/rebedding. I checked the deck myself anb did my own survey which was not without risk. I had looked at enuff boats to be willing to take the chance using the info the surveyor told me to look for. The deck was sound and so I rebedded all the stanchion and chainplates, tabernacle, lights and cleats etc. before sailing last year. I still have some things to rebedd this year, but my deck is dry. Oh yeah, I not only rebedded but epoxy sealed and then oversize drilled and then rebedded. good luck
I was in the market for an O'day 25 or 26. I found a 1984 26 footer owned by a doctor. The boat was nice and shiney. I had it surveyed and discovered some small and 2 large areas of core damage from leakage. one was a 3 square foot area on the port side of the tabernacle. the other was the whole bow area from just behind the stem fitting back to a point about 1 foot infront of the start of the cabin roof. Oh yeah, both chainplate areas also. I asked how long the starboard chain plate had leaked. The doctor said about two years but only a cup or two to the bilge per rainstorm. I stopped the survey at that point which was an estimated $2600. I initially thought I was going to buy the boat that day but went home very very disappoined as was the doctor. He had no clue about his deck and said no hardware had ever been rebedded and didn't know the water leakage was a problem. I have since purchased a 1976 25 footer that had a water tite deck that had been rebedded but not by the current owner. he also was unaware of deck fitting leakage/rebedding. I checked the deck myself anb did my own survey which was not without risk. I had looked at enuff boats to be willing to take the chance using the info the surveyor told me to look for. The deck was sound and so I rebedded all the stanchion and chainplates, tabernacle, lights and cleats etc. before sailing last year. I still have some things to rebedd this year, but my deck is dry. Oh yeah, I not only rebedded but epoxy sealed and then oversize drilled and then rebedded. good luck
Gene, your experience with the Doctor's
boat is a good example of ignorant neglect. I have known people that washed and waxed their cars every week but had no idea about how to check the oil. I have worked in houses where the owners called me after the tile wall in the bathroom fell apart. I find such with wet towels on the floor the tile walls still wet from the morning shower, but the reason they called was the water dripping from the ceiling in the downstairs kitchen. These people keep a nice house in the public areas but neglect good house keeping rules in the private areas. Boaters are not much different they pay a lot of attention to the things that show but don't seem to know that there is nothing on the boat that they don't need.
boat is a good example of ignorant neglect. I have known people that washed and waxed their cars every week but had no idea about how to check the oil. I have worked in houses where the owners called me after the tile wall in the bathroom fell apart. I find such with wet towels on the floor the tile walls still wet from the morning shower, but the reason they called was the water dripping from the ceiling in the downstairs kitchen. These people keep a nice house in the public areas but neglect good house keeping rules in the private areas. Boaters are not much different they pay a lot of attention to the things that show but don't seem to know that there is nothing on the boat that they don't need.
type of use counts (a quatrain)
Has the boat been chartered? If so, it's probably more abused than used. Has the boat been raced? If so, it's probably a bit more "used" than if it had been cruised.
Has the boat been chartered? If so, it's probably more abused than used. Has the boat been raced? If so, it's probably a bit more "used" than if it had been cruised.
blue water passages command more money because
they are better build boats. Blue water boats are better general maintained becuase the boat owner that would buy a blue water passages, general has more money than a non Blue water boat owner. Many Blue water boats have some in charge of maintaining them when the owner is our of the country. Teak deaks are something to watch out for on older Blue water boats. The Teak wears and needs replacement. The cost for teak replace could be as high as $50,000.
they are better build boats. Blue water boats are better general maintained becuase the boat owner that would buy a blue water passages, general has more money than a non Blue water boat owner. Many Blue water boats have some in charge of maintaining them when the owner is our of the country. Teak deaks are something to watch out for on older Blue water boats. The Teak wears and needs replacement. The cost for teak replace could be as high as $50,000.
The best boat to buy ...............
The best boat to buy is usually one that is used often, locally. A lake or a bay boat has probabaly never been subjected to the stresses of one that has been 'seasoned'. Aboat from the north has had much less destructive sun rays beating on it as one from the south or the tropics. On the other hand, one that has rarely been used or not been used for a while can give you hidden head aches. Everything checks out well when you go purchase, but after a few months, all systems slowly commit suicide. The lack of use has its own form of deterioration such as dry rotted seals on mechanical eqpt. Just let your car sit up for a year or so and see what happens. Generally speaking, a boat used often tends to be well maintained because it gets repaired as needed. Tony B
The best boat to buy is usually one that is used often, locally. A lake or a bay boat has probabaly never been subjected to the stresses of one that has been 'seasoned'. Aboat from the north has had much less destructive sun rays beating on it as one from the south or the tropics. On the other hand, one that has rarely been used or not been used for a while can give you hidden head aches. Everything checks out well when you go purchase, but after a few months, all systems slowly commit suicide. The lack of use has its own form of deterioration such as dry rotted seals on mechanical eqpt. Just let your car sit up for a year or so and see what happens. Generally speaking, a boat used often tends to be well maintained because it gets repaired as needed. Tony B
Engine hours
The thing that comes closest to being an objective measure like automobile miles is engine hours. Not only do hours give you a picture of how much wear might be in the engine, but on the high end it also gives you an idea of how much time the boat had on the water. While it's true that low miles might just mean the previous owner didn't use the engine as much as they could have, very high miles are a sure sign of long sailing hours as well. Under 1000 would be typical for a Summer-only used coastal cruiser, 2500+ would be a seriously travelled boat...
The thing that comes closest to being an objective measure like automobile miles is engine hours. Not only do hours give you a picture of how much wear might be in the engine, but on the high end it also gives you an idea of how much time the boat had on the water. While it's true that low miles might just mean the previous owner didn't use the engine as much as they could have, very high miles are a sure sign of long sailing hours as well. Under 1000 would be typical for a Summer-only used coastal cruiser, 2500+ would be a seriously travelled boat...
Miles over time.
2500 hours on a 25 year old boat means only 100 hours per year. Thats not much. As far as a diesel engine is concerned, 2500 hours on a maintained engine is not even broken in yet. As far as other eqpt goes, if the engine has 2500 hiours, we can assume the boat was well traveled. This means that the sails will look really ratty and so will the cushions, etc. If they dont, then they were already replaced. If its not obvious, ask. Maybe you will get an honest answer. A good surveyor should be able to tell alot about the boat. Maintenance means alot whether the boat was hardly over or used a lot. Tony B
2500 hours on a 25 year old boat means only 100 hours per year. Thats not much. As far as a diesel engine is concerned, 2500 hours on a maintained engine is not even broken in yet. As far as other eqpt goes, if the engine has 2500 hiours, we can assume the boat was well traveled. This means that the sails will look really ratty and so will the cushions, etc. If they dont, then they were already replaced. If its not obvious, ask. Maybe you will get an honest answer. A good surveyor should be able to tell alot about the boat. Maintenance means alot whether the boat was hardly over or used a lot. Tony B
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