Not sure if everyone has heard about the US Coast Guard plans to set up 34 live fire zones in the Great Lakes. They are going to set up 34 "safety Zones" that will be about 70sq miles each. These will be used to do live fire training with the M-240 & M-2 (50 Cal) Machine guns. Using their own figures this will dump about 7,000 pounds of lead into the lakes each year. Seems funny when you think you can get a ticket for peeing over the side of your boat. These areas are very large and it would be easy for someone to sail into one, so safety is another concern and of course there is always the worry about a fine for that. If you go to the Coast Guard website and look up District 9 you can find all the info you need. The link I provided is to a website where you can read and leave comments during the "open for public comments" period. The docket # is 25767. Worth a read if you live or boat in the Great Lakes
- Status
Pee over the side?
I can hardly beleive that anyone on the Great Lakes would actually pee in the water. I understand that the Coho they stock the lake with have been genetically engineered so as to not expel any waste product. I sail Lake Ontario and they are planning to practice 15 miles from me. I guess i figure there is not much I can do about it. We seem to be in an era where the government does what they want.
I can hardly beleive that anyone on the Great Lakes would actually pee in the water. I understand that the Coho they stock the lake with have been genetically engineered so as to not expel any waste product. I sail Lake Ontario and they are planning to practice 15 miles from me. I guess i figure there is not much I can do about it. We seem to be in an era where the government does what they want.
No ticket for peeing over the side...
Except maybe for indecent exposure. Peeing over the side is legal. It's only when it goes through any device "intended to receive, retain, treat or discharge" it first that it becomes illegal. 7000 lbs of lead annually in all the GL combined isn't much at all (neither is 34 zones on all the lakes combined)...only a tiny fraction the amount used to weight the keel of just one of the many freighters that have gone down on 'em. And besides, it's not like a fuel spill...lead doesn't dissolve very easily. Raising a flap over this would just be another emotional irrational knee-jerk "the sky is falling" response to what amounts to being beaned by one walnut from a tree.
Except maybe for indecent exposure. Peeing over the side is legal. It's only when it goes through any device "intended to receive, retain, treat or discharge" it first that it becomes illegal. 7000 lbs of lead annually in all the GL combined isn't much at all (neither is 34 zones on all the lakes combined)...only a tiny fraction the amount used to weight the keel of just one of the many freighters that have gone down on 'em. And besides, it's not like a fuel spill...lead doesn't dissolve very easily. Raising a flap over this would just be another emotional irrational knee-jerk "the sky is falling" response to what amounts to being beaned by one walnut from a tree.
peeing and 50 cals
what if I take a #2 over the side
Anything to prolong the life of my head 50 cals have an effective range of a couple of miles max and the sound will travel a lot farther then that so I'm sure nobody will have live rounds flying through the sails. I don't see any reason for concern and appreaciate that the troops get good training.
what if I take a #2 over the side
Anything to prolong the life of my head 50 cals have an effective range of a couple of miles max and the sound will travel a lot farther then that so I'm sure nobody will have live rounds flying through the sails. I don't see any reason for concern and appreaciate that the troops get good training.Live fire exercises not new
I remember listing to the NOAA weather rado growing up in Sandusky, OH. They always broadcast notices of live fire exercises in "impact area xxx" off Camp Perry (Port Clinton, OH).
I remember listing to the NOAA weather rado growing up in Sandusky, OH. They always broadcast notices of live fire exercises in "impact area xxx" off Camp Perry (Port Clinton, OH).
Not that much lead?
What about the duck hunters around the Great Lakes? Did anybody ever figure out how much lead they put into the system before steel shot was mandated? the Coast Guard certainly isn't going to be doing live fire exercises every day in every zone at the same time. There is a lot of open border out there and I would think we would want the Coast Guard to be able to hit what they were aiming at if the time ever came that it was a necessity. I'm frankly surprised that the Coast Guard hadn't armed their Great Lakes boats and practiced long before this.
What about the duck hunters around the Great Lakes? Did anybody ever figure out how much lead they put into the system before steel shot was mandated? the Coast Guard certainly isn't going to be doing live fire exercises every day in every zone at the same time. There is a lot of open border out there and I would think we would want the Coast Guard to be able to hit what they were aiming at if the time ever came that it was a necessity. I'm frankly surprised that the Coast Guard hadn't armed their Great Lakes boats and practiced long before this.
Cormorants
They could make the fishermen happy if they did their practice on Cormorants. No complaints there.
They could make the fishermen happy if they did their practice on Cormorants. No complaints there.
do a search on 09/11/2001
they can practice all they want, its a big lake!!!! god bless our troops starting with gwb cheers, mike
they can practice all they want, its a big lake!!!! god bless our troops starting with gwb cheers, mike
ummm
doesn't it naturally go through a "device intended for discharge"? Don't tell the coasties that!
doesn't it naturally go through a "device intended for discharge"? Don't tell the coasties that!
Clarification
That should be device on the boat intended for discharge. Seems to me that all that noise from live fire exercises should give meaning to the expression, "scared...er, witless (or something like that)... (I gotta stop posting after the second glass of wine with dinner!)
That should be device on the boat intended for discharge. Seems to me that all that noise from live fire exercises should give meaning to the expression, "scared...er, witless (or something like that)... (I gotta stop posting after the second glass of wine with dinner!)
Live fire suspended
According to the Oct 17 issue of the Globe and Mail the USCG has suspended its plan for live fire in the Great lakes. US SUSPENDS GUN DRILLS ON GREAT LAKES: Ottawa, Canada - The U.S. Coast Guard has suspended machine-gun practice on the Great Lakes as Washington considers whether the live-fire drills pose an environmental danger to fish and a safety hazard for boats. Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay said Monday Canada is concerned about possible lead poisoning of the lakes, noting that the use of lead shot and sinkers in fishing gear is already banned. Canada has informed the United States about its environmental worries, he said. "We're concerned most particularly in the environmental aspect." Mr. MacKay said he is less concerned about the safety of boaters. "I have seen no report that suggests anyone is in any peril," he said. The live-fire exercises "are not in close proximity of civilians." Canadian diplomats will monitor public meetings in U.S. Great Lakes cities as the Coast Guard explains its proposal to set up target-practice shooting zones. Mr. MacKay suggested that Washington is reviewing its decision to arm Coast Guard lake boats with deck-mounted heavy machine guns. -- Read the complete story, particularly the part about how the Coast Guard has conducted at least 24 live-fire drills on the lakes since January, firing about 3,000 rounds of lead ammunition each time. - Jeff Sallot, Globe and Mail, full story: http://tinyurl.com/y7a6tb
According to the Oct 17 issue of the Globe and Mail the USCG has suspended its plan for live fire in the Great lakes. US SUSPENDS GUN DRILLS ON GREAT LAKES: Ottawa, Canada - The U.S. Coast Guard has suspended machine-gun practice on the Great Lakes as Washington considers whether the live-fire drills pose an environmental danger to fish and a safety hazard for boats. Foreign Affairs Minister Peter MacKay said Monday Canada is concerned about possible lead poisoning of the lakes, noting that the use of lead shot and sinkers in fishing gear is already banned. Canada has informed the United States about its environmental worries, he said. "We're concerned most particularly in the environmental aspect." Mr. MacKay said he is less concerned about the safety of boaters. "I have seen no report that suggests anyone is in any peril," he said. The live-fire exercises "are not in close proximity of civilians." Canadian diplomats will monitor public meetings in U.S. Great Lakes cities as the Coast Guard explains its proposal to set up target-practice shooting zones. Mr. MacKay suggested that Washington is reviewing its decision to arm Coast Guard lake boats with deck-mounted heavy machine guns. -- Read the complete story, particularly the part about how the Coast Guard has conducted at least 24 live-fire drills on the lakes since January, firing about 3,000 rounds of lead ammunition each time. - Jeff Sallot, Globe and Mail, full story: http://tinyurl.com/y7a6tb
a thought
I did not post this to say that I do not appreciate the job the Coast Gaurd does but I do disagree with this. I have been in the Military for the past 27 years and I am still serving on active duty. My probelm with this is two fold 1.) safety...I believe it was Franklin that pointed out the max range of a 50 cal...being several miles and 2.) 7000 lbs of lead IS a lot of lead. On our range on base we are not allowed to remove any soil and they are very picky about how we move it around all because of lead content. The real point is that there is truely now need to conduct this type of practice on the great lakes. We have larges ranges all over the country that are used for this very purpose. If it is a need to fire them from a boat (which with machine guns that fire over 600 rounds per minute it is not) then there are huge salty oceans that I believe they still have access to. I agree that the Coasties should go armed for what may happen...when I take me troops out we take more firepower than we hope to need. I have seen a lot of stupid policies put in place since 911 that make now sense from a security stand point (which just happens to be my specialty)and to steal Peggy's line are "strictly a knee jerk" reaction and a waste of money and resources. Fear is an emotion that leads to the destruction of common sense.
I did not post this to say that I do not appreciate the job the Coast Gaurd does but I do disagree with this. I have been in the Military for the past 27 years and I am still serving on active duty. My probelm with this is two fold 1.) safety...I believe it was Franklin that pointed out the max range of a 50 cal...being several miles and 2.) 7000 lbs of lead IS a lot of lead. On our range on base we are not allowed to remove any soil and they are very picky about how we move it around all because of lead content. The real point is that there is truely now need to conduct this type of practice on the great lakes. We have larges ranges all over the country that are used for this very purpose. If it is a need to fire them from a boat (which with machine guns that fire over 600 rounds per minute it is not) then there are huge salty oceans that I believe they still have access to. I agree that the Coasties should go armed for what may happen...when I take me troops out we take more firepower than we hope to need. I have seen a lot of stupid policies put in place since 911 that make now sense from a security stand point (which just happens to be my specialty)and to steal Peggy's line are "strictly a knee jerk" reaction and a waste of money and resources. Fear is an emotion that leads to the destruction of common sense.
BULLSHIT
"Fear is an emotion that leads to the destruction of common sense. " Fear is what stops you from jumping off a cliff. Fear is what stops you from driving your car into a brick wall at 100 mph. Fear is what keeps you off the water when it's blowing 35 knots. Fear leads to carrying out actions to comply with common sense.
"Fear is an emotion that leads to the destruction of common sense. " Fear is what stops you from jumping off a cliff. Fear is what stops you from driving your car into a brick wall at 100 mph. Fear is what keeps you off the water when it's blowing 35 knots. Fear leads to carrying out actions to comply with common sense.
and I said....
that the max EFFECTIVE range of a 50 cal is at max 2 miles. Effective means if I shoot it in a horizontal position, how far out can I hit a target. Now I don't know the exact range but from my knowledge of guns, I'd say it is closer to 800 yards. More importantly, how far will a bullit travel before it falls into the water. That is less then 2 miles if shot at a normal horizontal angle. If shot in the air it might go 5 miles. Now the sound of a 50 cal is going to travel about 20 miles on open water. It's going to make a sound that will definately keep people away. A 50 cal is a very impressive sound. People tend to want to go the opposite direction when they hear one. As for lead in the water...aren't many keels made of lead? Like much much MUCH more lead then the CG would ever drop in the water just from one keel?
that the max EFFECTIVE range of a 50 cal is at max 2 miles. Effective means if I shoot it in a horizontal position, how far out can I hit a target. Now I don't know the exact range but from my knowledge of guns, I'd say it is closer to 800 yards. More importantly, how far will a bullit travel before it falls into the water. That is less then 2 miles if shot at a normal horizontal angle. If shot in the air it might go 5 miles. Now the sound of a 50 cal is going to travel about 20 miles on open water. It's going to make a sound that will definately keep people away. A 50 cal is a very impressive sound. People tend to want to go the opposite direction when they hear one. As for lead in the water...aren't many keels made of lead? Like much much MUCH more lead then the CG would ever drop in the water just from one keel?
Franklin....now we cuss?
Franklin.. I though this was a friendly forum? You did say max effective range but don't confuse that with the MAXIMUM RANGE! The ACUTAL MAX RANGE of the M-2 (50 CAL) is 4.66 Miles. That is more than double your guess! At two miles depending on wind direction you most likely will not here the weapon being dicharged and surely you will not at four miles. I know this becuase I have used both of these weapons. As far as your issue with my comment about fear...it is a personal opinion..you don't have to agree or disagree but it has worked well in the training many of the troops that I have led in this recent round of wars. I am a combat vet from three wars and I do know a little about living and fighting with fear. As for you comment about fear keeping you from jumping of a cliff...NOPE common sense tells me if I jump I am going to die....Common sense tells me that if I drive my car into a wall I am going to wreck my car and injure myself....common sense tells me that the winds is blowing 35 knots and to reef my sails when I am out sailing. I think it is a shame that YOU live your life in fear when a small bit of common sense would have helped you learn that fire can burn. Common sense also tells me that there are a lot of ranges that the Coast Guard can fire their weapons on that are already approved and paid for. So why do they need to create 34 more at 70sq miles each? Thats 1680 sq miles of the Great lakes. Now I know that the lakes are big but that is a very large piece of property. Again I have no problem with the weapons and the theory of going out armed to the nines is one that I believe in. But the question I would like to have answered is why not use what already exists? As for the lead in keels, I know that there are some keels out there that are nothing but raw lead but most are wrapped in steel or some form of epoxy to protect the soft lead. As for the boats in the great lakes we all have ours coated with some for of paint and or anti fouling. Franklin since you are from Texas a little bit about some of our laws here...when I go out duck hunting I have to use steel shot so I don't pollute the water with lead. Ok this makes sense to me...until now! On one last note...I do appreciate your interest in the issues concerning the Great Lakes and our northern boarder. I hope that was your intent and not one out of the desire to be confrontational. I do hope that your concerns are as well directed at protecting the southern boarder and I do join you in this endevor as I have many young troops deployed down there working the border issue.
Franklin.. I though this was a friendly forum? You did say max effective range but don't confuse that with the MAXIMUM RANGE! The ACUTAL MAX RANGE of the M-2 (50 CAL) is 4.66 Miles. That is more than double your guess! At two miles depending on wind direction you most likely will not here the weapon being dicharged and surely you will not at four miles. I know this becuase I have used both of these weapons. As far as your issue with my comment about fear...it is a personal opinion..you don't have to agree or disagree but it has worked well in the training many of the troops that I have led in this recent round of wars. I am a combat vet from three wars and I do know a little about living and fighting with fear. As for you comment about fear keeping you from jumping of a cliff...NOPE common sense tells me if I jump I am going to die....Common sense tells me that if I drive my car into a wall I am going to wreck my car and injure myself....common sense tells me that the winds is blowing 35 knots and to reef my sails when I am out sailing. I think it is a shame that YOU live your life in fear when a small bit of common sense would have helped you learn that fire can burn. Common sense also tells me that there are a lot of ranges that the Coast Guard can fire their weapons on that are already approved and paid for. So why do they need to create 34 more at 70sq miles each? Thats 1680 sq miles of the Great lakes. Now I know that the lakes are big but that is a very large piece of property. Again I have no problem with the weapons and the theory of going out armed to the nines is one that I believe in. But the question I would like to have answered is why not use what already exists? As for the lead in keels, I know that there are some keels out there that are nothing but raw lead but most are wrapped in steel or some form of epoxy to protect the soft lead. As for the boats in the great lakes we all have ours coated with some for of paint and or anti fouling. Franklin since you are from Texas a little bit about some of our laws here...when I go out duck hunting I have to use steel shot so I don't pollute the water with lead. Ok this makes sense to me...until now! On one last note...I do appreciate your interest in the issues concerning the Great Lakes and our northern boarder. I hope that was your intent and not one out of the desire to be confrontational. I do hope that your concerns are as well directed at protecting the southern boarder and I do join you in this endevor as I have many young troops deployed down there working the border issue.
Sorry
I don't consider BS a cuss word. I could debate the range a little more but this isn't the place. However, let me just say that sound travels a lot farther on water. As for protecting our borders, you bet I'm all for it. Bush has let me down there. Keep your head down while sailing
I don't consider BS a cuss word. I could debate the range a little more but this isn't the place. However, let me just say that sound travels a lot farther on water. As for protecting our borders, you bet I'm all for it. Bush has let me down there. Keep your head down while sailing
Not A Problem Franklin
Not a problem Franklin I agree we could debate this to death which is not my intent. I just wanted to make other boaters on the Great Lakes aware and give them the choice to vote either way. If you ever get the chance to come up this way I would take you out and show you why this issues hits a nerve with me. I guess we Michiganders are kinda like Texans when it comes to home...there is no place better and it is the Great Lakes that make it that way for me. Heaven on earth. As for the securing of our borders we agree. I am very disappointed on that front myself. I will tell you this and it comes from personal experience that the goverment is wasting a lot of money on things that do work and that as a military member we do not want...Again tho this is the wrong place for those discussions. Thank you for your reply and input you always help to keep things lively and fun I am trying to talk my wife into letting me get a deck cannon for the boat but so far she is not buying....any help on convincing her would be appreciated! LOL Take Care
Not a problem Franklin I agree we could debate this to death which is not my intent. I just wanted to make other boaters on the Great Lakes aware and give them the choice to vote either way. If you ever get the chance to come up this way I would take you out and show you why this issues hits a nerve with me. I guess we Michiganders are kinda like Texans when it comes to home...there is no place better and it is the Great Lakes that make it that way for me. Heaven on earth. As for the securing of our borders we agree. I am very disappointed on that front myself. I will tell you this and it comes from personal experience that the goverment is wasting a lot of money on things that do work and that as a military member we do not want...Again tho this is the wrong place for those discussions. Thank you for your reply and input you always help to keep things lively and fun I am trying to talk my wife into letting me get a deck cannon for the boat but so far she is not buying....any help on convincing her would be appreciated! LOL Take Care
- Status