Upwind truth?

[Quoddy]

My browser didn't show a reply button so I had to put this info as a new upwind post.

My frustration with our H260 upwind (55-60 degrees to true wind)may not be well founded if there is any truth to the following quotes from a Wikipedia article on sailing.

Is there any truth to these statements?

“Typical angles to the wind are
* about 35° for modern racing yachts which have been optimized for upwind performance (like America's Cup yachts)
* about 42 to 45° for modern cruiser-racer yachts (fast cruising yachts)
* about 50 to 60° for cruisers with an emphasis on interior space, ease of handling and often low draught rather than sailing performance, and for boats carrying two or more masts (since the forward sails adversely affect the aft sails when sailing upwind)
* close to 90° for square riggers and similar vessels due to the sail shape which is very ineffective when sailing upwind”

“The wind, irons, or no go zone, is about 45° either side of the true wind, for a racing hull and sail plan optimized for upwind work. More commonly and on cruising sailplans, the best angle achievable upwind is 50° to 55° to the true wind.”

TheH260 certainly is a cruiser with an emphasis on interior space, ease of handling and low draught with a centerboard too, so maybe I’m not doing all that badly?

 

[Paul356]

I don't think you're doing that badly. Some things to consider: Per designer Glen Henderson's advice on this board last winter, and confirmed by my own experience (356), Hunters are designed to sail flat. Among other things, that means your speed made good to windward (vmg) will likely be better if you head off a few degrees, keep the boat at a reasonable heel (say 15 degrees) and take advantage of the much better speed. It's possible to point a Hunter 40 degrees off the wind, everything sheeted flat, boat heeled over. In my experience, that also means about 10 degrees leeway while showing little forward speed. You might feel like you're pointing high, but the boat isn't moving forward that well. Finally, I think reports in boat reviews are highly optimistic. It seems almost impossible to find a boat review that doesn't include this sentence: "Even though the wind was only 7-8 K, we made a steady 6K upwind while tacking through 85 degrees." Ok, maybe I exaggerate a bit, and maybe that's possible under ideal conditions in a boat whose builder just bought a big ad in your magazine, but I think the Wiki article you quote is a much more realistic assessment under everyday conditions. The main thing with a Hunter, probably moreso than with some makes, is to keep the boat moving, and that usually means bearing off a few degrees.

 

[George H260]

Quoddy:

Paul's advice is excellent and validates my own experience with the H260. I focus more on VMG and try to be realistic about the pointing ability of this beamy centerboard family cruiser.

If you want to point high and go fast you'll have to get another boat - in the meantime, relax and enjoy the ride...

 

[RichH]

Approx. 50 deg. (True Wind) is a decent tacking angle for such design boats.

Upwind performance on any boat can be *optimized* by using a 'full set' of tell-tales, having the boat 'perfectly balanced' (with just a very wee bit of weather helm), and the sail set/trimmed/shaped perfectly for the day's conditions of wind and seastate.

Without a 'full' set of tell-tales (tales on the luff and leech of the jib and @ midcord and the leech of the mainsail) ... you will never be able to optimize the SHAPE nor 'trim' of the sails. Without this optimization of shape and trim your upwind performance will ALWAYS BE LESS than 'good'. A good basic instructional manual would be Don Guilettes "Sail Trim Users Guide" http://shop.sailboatowners.com/books/detail-books.htm?fno=400&sku=100&cat=1321...
Advanced sail trim/shaping/setting from the 'guru' who entirely set the entire sailing world on its ear can be found: www.arvelgentry.com ----> "magazine articles" ---> (a 'sequence' of 4 articles):
Checking Trim on the Wind, November 1973
Achieving Proper Balance, December 1973
Sailing to Windward, January 1974
Are You at Optimum Trim?, March 1974
.... just about all 'modern' sail trim advice/instruction uses these 'articles' as their 'root source' for sail optimization. Gentry is an aerodynamicist who was the first to explain how sails 'really work', totally debunked the 'slot effect', etc. etc. etc. etc.

Insure that the rig is properly tuned ... with the target of a moderately tight forestay (not an obviously easy thing to do with a B&R rig), so that you dont get 'lots of curve to leeward' in the forestay when the boat is heeling, etc. in ~12-15 kts of wind; do not 'overly tighten' the jib sheets (makes the forestay sag too much if too much jib sheet pressure is applied).

Skidding ???!!!!!!
When beating next time when you feel the boat is not 'moving well', take a look of the wake streaming aft from the stern ... it should be coming almost dead straight off the stern and if not it means that the 'dynamic' balance is 'off' and the boat when heeling is also skidding off to leeward. Approx. 3-4° max. is the most you want the boat to 'skid to leeward' if you want good upwind performance. The CHIEF cause of a boat skidding off to leeward (stern wake at greater than ~4°) .... is a loose or sagging forestay!!!! Dont 'overtension the jibsheets'!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BTW if the boat is 'skidding off to leeward', the keel wont be 'flying' and you will not be able to point as well as then the keel is also "lifting the boat to weather"!!! Yes, if the trim, sail shape, etc. is correct you will notice that keel develops 'lift' and this also moves the boat 'to weather' increasing the 'total' windward performance !!!!

Most folks simply dont know how to "raise" the mainsail. It should be raised and then the luff **additionaly stretched out** by the halyard with 'extra' strain... In VERY light winds just raise the mainsail until 'just up'; for sailing in 15 kts. ... add 1" of additional halyard stretch for every 11 feet of mainsail luff length. You can guesstimate the basic amount of extra stretch for those windstrengths in between 0-15. Dont stretch out that luff and you can expect too much 'weather helm'!!!!!!!
If your B&R rig tensions are all 'within spec' and the boat still has more than slight 'weather helm', consider to get a 'cunningham' installed on your mainsail. You can do this by also adjusting the mainsail's halyard tension.. but this is an more incovenient PITA in comparison to using a cunningham. You use the cunningham (or halyard tension) to adjust the desired/proper amount of 'weather helm'. When heeled and on a beat and to 'adjust for weather helm' you pull tension on the cunningham (or halyard) until the helm 'goes dead fish neutral' (no weather helm, no lee helm and the boat goes dead straight with your hands released from the wheel), ..... then release/ease the cunningham (or halyard) tension slightly until when the helm is released the boat *very s-l-o-w-l-y* heads up. The 260 changes its 'helm pressure' (weather helm) when it heels, so a cunningham may be a very important/convenient sail shape control when you want to optimize your upwind performance ... as 'weather helm' in its extreme will cause the boat to actually slow down and heel more (additional weather helm) as you begin to DRAG THE RUDDER sideways through the water in your attempt to correct the weather helm.

Use a full set telltales as any boat will NOT point well unless *every square inch* of sail area is 'working' properly. Without telltales there is absolutely NO way to tell if 'all' of a sail is working correctly.
Also, make sure that the forestay is 'tight' and not sagging off to leeward when the boat is heeled over if you want decent 'upwind performance'.
Weather helm will cause the rudder to be 'dragging through the water' ... adjust for 'very slight' weather helm (by 'sail shape' as adjusted by proper halyard/cunningham tension).

BTW --- if you have an outboard motor, be SURE that its raised and out of the water when sailing, especially 'beating'.

Hope this helps.

 

[Franklin]

No good sailor talks about true wind when trying to determine performance. You can not make statements like 45 degree off true wind is in irons because sails don't give a rats ass about true wind...only apparent wind. If you want to know your boat's performance beating into the wind for trip planning, then make a chart of conversions from true wind to apparent wind and then plan on not going inside 40 degrees apparent wind for the trip and 45 degrees is a better number to plan with.

 

[RichH]

No good sailor talks about true wind when trying to determine performance. You can not make statements like 45 degree off true wind is in irons because sails don't give a rats ass about true wind...only apparent wind. If you want to know your boat's performance beating into the wind for trip planning, then make a chart of conversions from true wind to apparent wind and then plan on not going inside 40 degrees apparent wind for the trip and 45 degrees is a better number to plan with.

ummmmmm Polars (which denotes windspeed and best attack angle versus fastest course, etc.) are always in TRUE wind, never 'apparent'. One uses such polars to validate the sailing characteristics. True wind omits the 'interpretation' of an apparent wind vs. boat's actual true velocity.

 

[Paul356]

Here's a pretty good summary of polars, reflecting what Rich says. http://www.sailingworld.com/article/From-the-Experts/Get-Your-Performance-On-Target They're based on true wind, and I say that as a good sailor. Note that in the upwind example in the article, the boat is sailing 45-degrees true, in a 10K wind, at a boat speed of about 5.9, giving an apparent wind on the boat of about 14K at about 20 degrees(eyeballing my little vector diagram 'cuz I don't have a protractor and can't remember whether I'm looking at a cosine or what).

 

[Ross]

I was once sailing in very light air and broad reaching. Just sailing back and forth across the river with the wind straight down river. My sail trim was as it would be for being close hauled because my boat speed and the light wind put the aparent wind way forward of the beam. Tacking was always a nail biter.

 

[Eddie7045]

I volunteered to teach newbies to sail in

a sailing club that I was in. One point about sailing upwind is that a novice almost always will tend to pinch too much. Even more veteran sailors will error in favor of pinching, thinking that if they pinch they might avoid making another tack. They don't realize how much is lost in reduced speed and usually don't consider that there is inceased leeway. The funny part is when I warn a student not to pinch, they will anyway when they think that I am not watching, as if they can get away with cheating if I don't catch them.

Obviously, you want to make the fewest tacks but never sail beyond that optimum angle. I've found that it is worth falling off as much as 10 degrees on your compass beyond where you think that optimum angle is rather than even risk pinching.

 

[Joe]

sorry franklin...

No good sailor talks about true wind when trying to determine performance. You can not make statements like 45 degree off true wind is in irons because sails don't give a rats ass about true wind...only apparent wind. If you want to know your boat's performance beating into the wind for trip planning, then make a chart of conversions from true wind to apparent wind and then plan on not going inside 40 degrees apparent wind for the trip and 45 degrees is a better number to plan with.

I disagree. Apparent wind info will help trim the sails.... but it doesn't tell you squat about your boat's pointing ability.... and that's what sailboat racing tactics are all about.

Your statment is ridiculous and uninformed, my friend. I can sail my boat at 45 deg apparent and still be performing poorly..... If you plan a trip without considering probable true wind direction and how well your boat performs on various points of sail (which is based on true wind direction).... you may never get there.