Upwind in a 356

[Paul356]

I posted this on the big boat forum, but realize I should post it here, too. Thanks:

Tell me your upwind setup. The best I could do yesterday in near perfect conditions was to hold the boat about 40 degrees into the wind, tolerate 10 degrees of leeway and end up going 50 degrees into the breeze. Still, the vmg was tolerable. I tried bearing off, heading up, sheeting/slacking, trying to reduce heel, etc,. and this seemed to be the best I could get. Seems odd to be sailing sideways so much, and I doubt G. Henderson had this in mind with his excellent design. Suggestions?

I will say we flew like nobody's business when we turned downwind under the cruising chute (Quantum) in pretty light air. No complaints there.

 

[RichH]

Don will probably reply with sail trim ideas so I wont go there here on 'his' forum.

However, a boat that has a slack or less than normal tension to its forestay will usually have severe 'pointing problems'. This 'sag' of the headstay will cause the shape of the sail to generate too much heel, cause 'skids' to leeward, change the 'angles' that the headsail makes with the apparent wind, etc. etc. etc. and the boat simply 'cant point well'.
Before getting into sail-trim issues, Id first verify that headstay tension is correct and the 'sag' of the headstay while on a beat is correct for the sail that you are flying. You cant get good genoa/jib trim, if the rigging tension isnt near 'perfect'.

Besides all the sail trim, etc. issues, if that headstay is too loose, your boat is simply not going to 'point' well.

What 'big boat forum' are you referring?

 

[Paul356]

thanks, good suggestion. was referring to the "Big Boat" forum on Hunter Owners group.

 

[CaptainJB]

356 Speed

I have a 2002 356 and our club sponsors a series of eight races yearly. For the last three years I have finished 2nd or 3rd overall each year

There are only two boats that consistently beat me, a Morgan 27 and an Islander 36. They are both very fast and have competent captains

My best point of sail is usually upwind where I can beat them or at least run even with them

I find off wind without a 150 genoa, I cannot keep up with the Islander or the Morgan

As for going to windward I keep the main flat, and the jib in as tight as I can watching the telltales very closely. I find if I sail the telltales I can usually do well

One of my changes that I plan on making is to lower the boom. The boom is not flat and is held up by the boom vang at a 5 - 10 degree angle

I plan on loosening the vang attachment screws sliding it back and drilling new attachment holes.

What do you think?

John Burns

 

[Paul356]

Re: 356 Speed

Congrats on the racing. Part of my frustration the other day was getting passed pretty handily by a Catalina 30. I did have the main flat, jib in, watching telltales. I'll keep working on that.

I replaced my factory issue vang with a solid vang from selden and like it much better. The vang that came with the boat was not worth much. Didn't have enough purchase (I have a 7-part tackle now, instead of 4), was difficult to reach (I led the vang line back to cockpit) and had a pretty useless jam cleat (replaced the Schaefer with a Harken). Even if you don't go for a solid vang, you could replace the tackle. I got two three-wheel blocks from Garhauer for not that much.

I think that if you move the vang back farther you'll lose purchase angle and you may have trouble getting the tackle to move the boom. Unless your vang tackle is two-blocking, I don't think moving the attachment back will get you any flatter -- it's just a matter of pulling harder, which is what I found hard to do.

When the boom is over the arch (i.e., more or less amidship) the mainsheet acts as much as a vang as the vang does. That's one of the nice things about the arch. I've used the mainsheet to pull the boom down (letting the vang go slack) and then tighten and cleat the vang to hold that angle for winging the main out further on a reach.

Hope this all makes sense. Fun to talk "boat."

--pb

 

[Bob R.]

Re: 356 Speed

I did move the vang attachment point back further on the boom this spring. The PO had the topping lift too tight leaving the boom 8-12 inches above the traveler on the arch. I loosened the topping lift and still couldn't pull the boom down with the vang since it was fully compressed and holding the boom up. I moved the boom attachment out far enough that boom can touch the traveler and then adjusted the topping lift to keep it a couple of inches up. I can now flatten the main sail much better and get less leach flutter is strong wind on a beat.

I am very frustrated with the jam cleat on the Selden "Rodkicker" vang. I can't get the control line to release from the cockpit, even in light wind, because of the forward angle of the cleat. I just bought a snatch block that I want to attach the mast base plate and a new Spinlock cabin top lever clutch so I won't have to climb up on the cabin top to release the vang. Has anyone else done this?

 

[Don Guillette]

Paul 356:
Tell me the wind speed and I’ll give you the approximate setting for each sail trim control for your main and jib. My SAIL TRIM CHART outlines the settings for every point of sail and wind condition.

Pointing – here’s the problem with pointing. Every racer I know is obsessed with it. The guys that finish 1st and 2nd have it down pat. The rest of us sailors have a problem with it and it pertains to pushing the outer edge. In other words, they go beyond pointing into PINCHING. In pointing and pinching you are sailing closer to your destination but your sailing slower. The other side of the coin is heading off. There your sailing farther from your destination but going faster. What is the solution – simple, somewhere in the middle.

Beer can racing – I never really liked beer can racing and here’s why. If I was racing my C30 against a jet ski boat with a 460 Ford I want to come in first. I know the handicap system adjusts for things but I still want to be first over the finish line. In beer can racing it ain’t going to happen because some boats are just faster than others and yours might be one of the others. What I like is match racing such as the C30 National events. In these events boat are evenly matched and the guy with the best sail trim wins.

Here is how I coped with beer can racing until I finally got sick of it. I trimmed the boat to the very best standard I could and reacted to every wind change. I then felt I was getting 100% efficiency and where we ended up is where we ended up. If you finish the day and can say I sailed the best I could with as few mistakes as possible then mates it’s a good day on the water.

 

[Paul356]

It was 10-12, light chop.

 

[Don Guillette]

Paul356: Here are the basic adjustments for you main and jib for 10 knots of wind. These are general adjustments and ment to get you in the ball park. All boats are different from many standpoints so you may have to tweek these settings to fit your boat.

MAINSAIL

TRAVELER: Controls the angle of attack. Place it on the center line of the boat.

MAINSHEET: Controls draft position, twist and angle of attack. Moderate tension.

HALYARD: Controls draft position. Tighten it to full hoist.

OUTHAUL: Controls draft position and draft depth. Fully tight.

CUNNINGHAM (if you have one): Controls draft position. It is the reverse of the halyard. Moderate tension.

VANG: Controls draft position and twist. Snug it up.

DRAFT DEPTH: Between 12% and 13%.

DRAFT POSITION: 50%

TELLTALES: All streaming. The top ones can stall a bit.

MAST BEND: Controls draft position. Moderate tension.

BATTENS: Top should not be more than 10% or 20% to leeward.

LEECHLINE: Moderately loose.

CREW POSITION: windward/forward

SLOT& TWIST: Moderately open.

JIB

HALYARD: Moderate to full tension. Very few if any wrinkels.

FASIRLEADS: Inboard and normal so telltales break evenly from top to bottom.

SAIL POSITION: On the spreaders.

HEADSTAY SAG: Medium.

OK, there are your basic settings. Try them and see what happens. Hopefully, you have a complete understand of the terms draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. If a mate does not then the above won't make much sense. My book THE SAIL TRIM USERS GUIDE explains the terms in simple English.

How would you like to have the settings for your mainsail and jib for each point of sail and wind conditions plus a bunch of helpful hints and sail trimming proceedures? What sailor wouldn't. Take a look at my SAIL TRIM CHART.

 

[CaptainJB]

Re: 356 Speed

Bob

I am also fed up with the Boom Vang jam cleat

What you are doing sounds interesting

Can you post a picture please or send me an e-mail with the picture

Thanks

john Burns (captain@burnsweb.com)

 

[Alan]

Holy cow!!

I can't believe that I just read this thread for the first time.

In answer to Pauls question I think that RichH hit the nail on the head. Headstay sag and mast rake are the main cause of this problem. This can only mean that the rig is not tuned properly. Setting mast rake by adjusting the length of the headstay and then adjusting the cap shrouds to control headstay sag are the key ingredients.
On average, mast rake should be set at between 1% and 2% of mast height. As the rake increases the pointing ability goes up. As a trade off weather helm will start to increase. This is a good thing to a point.

Now that your rake is set, the cap shrouds are used to tension the headstay (along with the others to a lesser degree) The combination of adjusting the cap and lower shrouds also induces the correct mast prebend to match the luff curve of the main.

When you are done with these adjustment, go for a sail and see just how much better your boat will sail in all points but especially up wind.

 

[Alan]

PS Don

It is only fair to start any sail trim discussion with the understanding that the rig is properly tuned. Trying to adjust sail trim on a boat that isn't set up correctly is an exercise in futility. Many skippers assume mistakenly that when the yard puts their mast up in the spring that the rig is tuned correctly if the 'wires' feel tight. Checking the rig for proper tunning is a must before going sailing and adjusting trim.

 

[sailingdog]

Instead of the spinlock, I'd recommend going with a Lewmar line clutch. The Spinlocks can jam under load and abrade the line much more than the Lewmars do... they're also quite a bit more expensive than the Lewmars.

This past season, I just finished up a project running all my halyards aft to the cockpit. Did a fair bit of research on line clutches and went with Lewmars, since they were among the most affordable, and had the lowest line abrasion, which means my new halyards will last longer.

I did move the vang attachment point back further on the boom this spring. The PO had the topping lift too tight leaving the boom 8-12 inches above the traveler on the arch. I loosened the topping lift and still couldn't pull the boom down with the vang since it was fully compressed and holding the boom up. I moved the boom attachment out far enough that boom can touch the traveler and then adjusted the topping lift to keep it a couple of inches up. I can now flatten the main sail much better and get less leach flutter is strong wind on a beat.

I am very frustrated with the jam cleat on the Selden "Rodkicker" vang. I can't get the control line to release from the cockpit, even in light wind, because of the forward angle of the cleat. I just bought a snatch block that I want to attach the mast base plate and a new Spinlock cabin top lever clutch so I won't have to climb up on the cabin top to release the vang. Has anyone else done this?

 

[Paul356]

Thanks, Alan. I'll give this some extra attention in spring.