Upgrading the battery, charger-inverter system

Chief RA · Oct 7, 2014

I suggest wiring your charger to your 450 a/h house bank. If charger/inverter will be located where you can easily plug into the inverter output, then I am with you: just use that 115 ac when not hooked to shore power. I also added a seperate AC outlet pair dedicated to inverter AC and put an orange cover plate on it to distinguish it from the other AC plates. The motor will keep your start battery up, as you indicate. If you don't have solar you might consider wiring your motor starting/charging system to your house bank and it will charge them directly. Just eliminate your starting battery need as you indicate an emergency power pack on board. If no solar yet, I would suggest you consider it. Resp. Chief

Stu Jackson · Oct 7, 2014

Hi, don't know if you've discovered our Catalina 34 website, in addition to this fine one: www.c34ia.org

Many of the questions you raise are answered in our Electrical 101 topic on our C34 forum: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5977.0.html

The aft cabin shelf is one of a few different places to mount a reserve battery. Others are under the aft cabin or forward of the starboard water tank.

As far as charging, it all depends on how it is wired.

Here's a discussion of how the OEM wiring worked and what you can do to improve it: OEM 1-2-B Switch Wiring History http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4949.msg30101.html#msg30101

You can use the switch to charge both banks, but the best advice is what Chief mentioned: run the alternator output to the house bank and get an echo charger. Details are in the links.

I went through all of this with my own C34 Mark I, so lots is there for you to read and ask away.

Please join us there, too.

As far as the inverter is concerned, there are two schools of thought: KISS and use its plugs; if you've gone to the trouble of buying one, why use extension cords?

Your boat, your choice.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Oct 7, 2014

davidan51 said:
I own a Catalina 34 but am new to sailing. I have been upgrading systems and am down to the batteries and charger-inverter. I want o install 4 225 amp 6volt deep cells for the house bank and a separate 12 volt starter battery. My idea is to move the start battery to the shelf above the engine in the back berth. This leaves room for 4 batteries under the dinette seat.
My first question is do I need a battery charger permanently connected to the start battery. Won't the alternator charge the start battery when the engine is running? I will carry a power pack on board just in case.

I did a similar upgrade over the last two years. Some of the questions/input I got was as follows:
1) Do you really want a dedicated starter battery? Why? The house bank you described is more than sufficient to start the diesel. A simpler, easier to install system is to have a large primary bank and a small (group 24 or so) reserve bank. Maine Sail did a good write up on how to do this type of system here: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=137615

2) Why not just install an automatic charge relay? They are not that expensive and will allow you to charge both the primary and the secondary (or house and starter if you go that way) battery banks from each charging source (i.e. shore power charger, alternator, solar, etc.). The same link above has a discussion on the ACR.

Second question. Should I wire the charger-inverter to the house AC recepticles? I don't plan on using it often and it has two AC outlets on the unit.
Thanks for anyinput on how best to proceed.

I did some research this summer on weather to put in an inverter or carry a generator and decided to go with the inverter (to be installed this winter). When I asked about wiring it into the boats 120 volt system the advice I got was that it can be pricey by the time you get all of the switches, etc. to do it correctly and that for the most part you won't need it. Now I am mainly going to use the inverter for powering tools and some other simple things like that. Your use may be different. Instead I am going to install the inverter with a dedicated outlet.

Good luck and fair winds,

Jesse

P.S. have you read Maine Sail's advice on buying cheap 6 volt batteries from Sam's Club? Could save you some bucks.

Sailvayu · Oct 8, 2014

This may help with the inverter side of things http://www.projectboatzen.com/understanding-inverter-installations/

Maine Sail · Oct 8, 2014

Sailvayu said:
This may help with the inverter side of things http://www.projectboatzen.com/understanding-inverter-installations/

As Wayne lays out there is a LOT to consider! Most, like 90%, of the inverters I see are not wired per acceptable safety standards. The green case ground must be equal to or not more than one size smaller than the DC feed wires! Usually this wire is completely omitted or the wrong size.

Certain non-marine inverters can create a permanent AC neutral (white) to grounding (green) bond on board, at all times. This is NOT GOOD and if you don't understand this point please bring in someone who does. A proper marine inverter installation only bonds neutral to grounding while inverting.

If you have large banks of batteries that take large amounts of current I prefer to see an inverter that has dedicated voltage sense leads, especially if you charge via an on-board gen set and want fast charging performance.. Victron and Outback are currently the only two companies that offer dedicated voltage sensing.

Keep in mind that most all inverters de-rate when they heat up. Allow for plenty of cooling if you plan to run large loads...

For smaller banks, like the OP is looking towards, a Magnum would be another good option but will not have dedicated voltage sensing.

Beyond that be 100% sure you have the battery capacity and charging capacity to drive what you think you want to drive!!

This is an example I use in my classes and seminars to drive the point home about innocuous devices such as a simple hair dryer. I call it the hair dryer conundrum..

The Hair Dryer Conundrum

1875W @ 120V = 15.6A

Now at 12V

1875W @ 12V = 156A X 1.20 Efficiency Factor = 187A

Is that all??

NO.....!

There is Mr. Peukert:

300Ah Bank - Peukert 1.3 @ 187A
Peukert CORRECTED Load On Bank = 399A
Peukert CORRECTED Ah Capacity = 140Ah
At Home = 15.6A On Your Boat = 399A

Ampere Hour Effect for 10 Minutes of Hair Drying

10 Minutes = .17 Hour

187A X .17 Hours = 32Ah's

Now Peukert Corrected

399A X .17 Hours = 68Ah's!!!

When you have the ability to stay DC, do it.....

Maine Sail · Oct 8, 2014

davidan51 said:
So this is my plan. Tell me if it sucks, please.
Four 225amp 6 volt house bank. One 12 volt start bank.
I have a 120 amp alternator with serpentine pulley system drive. Electro Maxx system
I have a Blueseas Add A Battery with ACR.
I will purchase a Kisae Abso 2000 pure sine inverter/charger with 55 amp battery charger.
Connect the inverter/charger to the house bank.
Connect the house bank to the start bank through the ACR
Install Balmar's Smart Gauge to monitor battery info.
I will have a marine electrician do the install on all.
Are there any pieces I am missing in this puzzle?
Thanks again.
david

My only comment is that the Kisae is an unknown variable in the I/C market. They are Chinese built and Kisae reportedly has some of the guys from the old StatPower involved. May be good, could be bad, we don't know..?? Yes they are very inexpensive because they are hi freq designs. You need to compare the Kisae of similar design to other brands of similar design to see where they stack up in teh value market.

This unit also does not have a single voltage profile I would use for golf cart batteries. Any device in today's day and age that does not allow for more than a few charge programs, or that lacks a custom charging program, is not a device I would choose. It also lacks a battery temp sensor. These are a get what you pay for product from looking at the specs.

We do have a track record of the StatPower/Xantrex hi freq products not being as reliable as some other brands. This is a hi freq I/C.. They are getting better all the time but the older transformer based units are generally pretty tough. Don't even get me going on the older hi freq stuff....

I would suggest considering Victron, Magnum etc because they are known quantities and are toroidal based I/C's which are quite reliable. Of course they are considerably more expensive but if you are paying a pro to install it a do it once and right approach may be less costly in the long run.

When you compare the Victron MultiPlus to a similar design in Kisae (IC1220100) the the Victron actually costs less, has double the warranty, and has an excellent track record. The Magnum is only about $110.00 more but is a US company and has a three year warranty. Magnum stands behind their product to the nth degree!

If you are going hi freq I would urge stand alone devices, pick a good quality charger then a decent quality pure sine inverter.....

Stu Jackson · Oct 8, 2014

David,

In addition to Maine Sail's post about the inverter/charger selection, you haven't mentioned moving your AO to the house bank and bypassing the switch. Also unclear if by Blueseas Add A Battery you mean the Dual Circuit switch or not. If so, seriously reconsider it, based on the links I provided in the Electrical 101 Topic. A 1-2-B switch is much better for your intended use.

AGM Battery Issues and the Blue Seas Dual Circuit Switch (from Maine Sail) "DARN AGM Batteries"
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=848465&highlight=darn agm

Noah bought one of those I/Cs: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8051.0.html

No report back form him, but Maine Sail chimed in there, too.

davidan51 said:
So this is my plan. Tell me if it sucks, please.
Four 225amp 6 volt house bank. One 12 volt start bank.
I have a 120 amp alternator with serpentine pulley system drive. Electro Maxx system
I have a Blueseas Add A Battery with ACR.
I will purchase a Kisae Abso 2000 pure sine inverter/charger with 55 amp battery charger.
Connect the inverter/charger to the house bank.
Connect the house bank to the start bank through the ACR
Install Balmar's Smart Gauge to monitor battery info.
I will have a marine electrician do the install on all.
Are there any pieces I am missing in this puzzle?
Thanks again.
david

Stu Jackson · Oct 8, 2014

Alternator Output

Stu Jackson · Oct 8, 2014

davidan51 said:
1...So yes, I am moving the AO to the house bank.
2...The Kisae does have a auto switch and does have a battery temp switch as an option.
3...Outside of the Xantrex 1800 unit, this is the only unit that will fit where I need it to go. The jury's out on the unit I know.
4...With these issues addressed, is the rest of the plan seem correct?

David,
1. Great
2. Good, but reread Noah's link, he just posted to it this morning. Odd, at the very least. Other options: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/inverter-charger-selection-problem-again-134086.html Read both pages.
3. Where are you putting it?
4. Dual circuit or 1-2-B?

Stu

Stu Jackson · Oct 8, 2014

davidan51 said:
Stu,
It's funny, I've seen your name over the last two years I've owned the boat and now you helping me solve the few remaining issues. I'm retiring in 15 months onto the boat. I will be sailing her solo so I've made eevry attempt to make her safe and sound. I appreciate all you help.
I'm going to install the charger/inverter under the dinette table. Same wall as the factory battery compartment which I've installed vents in just in case? This keeps it as close to the batteries as I can get it.
I have the dual circuit switch that came with the ACR but I think you're saying No on that. Keep the 1,2, both, off in place?
david

David, glad to help, always.

If you read the link I provided, you'll see why the Dual Circuit switch is the wrong application for sailboat use. Please, read the links, I know I do provide a lot of them, but I just dislike retyping stuff. Keep the 1-2-B.

Have you considered putting the I/C on the outboard wall under the nav station? First picture

http://www.c34.org/projects/projects-aquavite.html

It's a tad further away from the battery box, but you can get large wires under the cabin sole via the aft end of the holding tank compartment quite easily. I put mine there, and just drilled two holes through the aft wall of the settee. I ran (2) 2/0 wires that way, with a Power Post in the water heater compartment, but that was because my old 1998 Freedom 15 came with the wires attached with a limited length. In your case, you could make up a length that would reach all the way to the battery box from the I/C.

Any reason you haven't brought this over to the C34 forum? There is lots of boat-specific knowledge there that, while you'll find plenty of electrical knowledge here, they just don't know "our boats" as well as we do, physical layouts and such.

Stu

PS Goin' sailin' back Friday late.