Upgrading Navigation. Requirements incl forward looking sonar

dlochner · Sunday at 10:37 AM

The Toronto Boat Show is in a couple of weeks, I would expect both Garmin and B&G to have booths there. Functionally I would expect both brands to have similar products with similar features. The big difference will be in the interface, which interface do you find easiest to use? Sometime spent in the booths will help to answer that question.

We have a complete B&G suite with a Zeus3s chart plotter. I also have a Simrad plotter that is comparable to a Zeus. I much prefer the Zeus3s to the Simrad because the Zeus has knobs, buttons, and a touchscreen, the Vulcan is touchscreen only. A touchscreen is often more difficult to use with wet hands or in rough conditions than a knob or button. While 7" sceens are available, I find them too small and prefer a 9" screen. A 12" is, for my tastes, too large for the helm and too expensive.

If the RM AP is compatible with NMEA 2000, then it will be able to use the data on the network, but will need a RM controller. That will probably require an N2K to SeaTalk bridge. Good question to ask at the Garmin and B&G booths.

I looked into adding forward looking sonar. The problem I ran into was geography. The sensor needed to be several feet away from any other depth sounder and that wasn't possible on our boat. The B&G sensors (relabeled AirMar sensors) are tridata, speed, depth, and temp, disabling the depth sounder wasn't really an option.

Good Luck.

PaulK · Sunday at 2:47 PM

There's another thread somewhere about forward-looking sonar. It seems to be useful at at 1-1.5 knots when you're going into an unfamiliar anchorage with rocks. You have to have a pair of eyes on it constantly to get enough advance warning to be able to avoid the rocks (even at 1.5 knots). Like radar it takes getting used to/learning to interpret. One poster mentioned that it shows thermoclines, which could be quite offputting. Mounting the sensor also often puts it well aft of the bow so that you have even less advance notice than you think.
P.S.: Go with wireless for everything else.

capta · Sunday at 2:49 PM

I've been using the Garman side scan up here for fishing, & with 2 units together I can run all the in water features & navigation screens at the same time.
I haven't used B & G in many years, long before Garmin entered the scene, but they were great back when. However, I am guessing, but I believe that B & G are more designed for sailing applications, whereas Garmin has a larger suite of functions available.

Joe · Monday at 7:12 AM

I don't have any problem with touch screen. Of course I live in a drier weather area and my Vulcan 9 is on a swinging bracket that allows me to get it out of the weather. But honestly, I know half a dozen guys that have installed Vulcan CP and no one complains. My understanding is they are a little slower than Zeus... therefore the price diff. But get a chartplotter that can display radar no matater what you decide on. I prefer B&G because they're all saiing, their related brands, Simrad, Navico and Lowrance will work seamlessly in the N2k network. But I've a few sailor friends who are in love with Garmin. I used some Garmin parts when assembling my network... I think they're pretty good too and of course their hand helds are tops. They are super big in aeronautical instruments. Had some older Ray stuff.. Autohelm, handheld etc. but had a warranty conflict with them 20 years ago and never went back.

dlochner · Monday at 7:58 AM

Check with Defender.CA and Binnacle.com to see if they will honor any boat show discount. There is also a good marine store in Kingston, Ont, I just. can't remember the name. Trying to make a decision on the spot might be a bit stressful, waiting a few days to mull it over might make you happier in the long run.

jssailem · Monday at 8:37 AM

Tony2024 said:
my usage is primarily day sailing with overnight anchorages in the eastern Georgian Bay /30,000 islands area.

I understand that the Thirty Thousand Islands are a unique area of some 340,000 hectares along the eastern shore of Georgian Bay. The charts I have viewed show a puzzelwork of waterways to explore.

I wonder with all this area, why is there a need for Forward Scanning Sonar? It would seem a better expenditure than the cost of forward scanning equipment would be to have decent charts of the islands. Then you locate your boat in a safe deep-water anchorage and use a kayak or dinghy to get up close and personal with the island's flora and fauna. Trying to navigate a closed water inlet, with boulders hidden 3ft below the surface, feels like a fool's errand. Unless you are an exceptional sonar operator, your time from awareness to avoidance will have you on the rocks, even drifting at 1 knot.

My friend with a Cal31 had a Standard Horizon forward scanning system. The sonar was located in front of the keel. The return signals, even when we were drifting, were difficult to utilize when one of us was the sonar operator and the other was at the helm. At the slow speeds needed to get usable returns, we lost steerage. Avoidance became problematic. The system was eventually removed as he focused more on hull speed, removing the transducer.

Get some live experience with such equipment before you expend the funds to buy and install.

CrispyCringle · Monday at 8:52 AM

I just upgraded my chart plotters to Raymarine Axiom's from older C120W. However I kept all of the ST60 wind and depth instruments, SPX30 autopilot and radar. I love the Axiom MFD. Huge improvement over the old system. I also have the radar fully integrated and controllable with the new MFD's. But you are correct that Raymarine has chosen to block out old autopilots with software. You are supposed to have EV-1 series or newer. However, there is a very good workaround as described here: Yacht Devices Network Bridge. Works great. The SPX30 autopilot can be fully controlled on the MFD.

BarryL · Monday at 12:39 PM

Hello,

Some information for you.

I have used Garmin, Raymarine, and B&G. They are all more similar than different. They all do mostly the same stuff. So, if you have a functioning Raymarine autopilot you should at least consider a new Raymarine plotter.

The newest B&G plotters (Zeus SR, Zeus S) DO NOT support Navionics charts. The older plotters (Zeus 3S, Vulcan) do support Navionics. For ME, this is a big deal, as I use the Navionics Boating app on my phone and IPad. That allows me to create routes on my phone and easily have the routes transferred to my Zeus 3S plotter. Perhaps this isn't such a big deal as B&G has an app that runs on phones and tablets that is SUPPOSED to do the same thing. Note that I have not used the B&G app so I can't comment on how well it works.

Garmin and Raymarine (to the best of my knowledge) can run Navionics charts on their plotters.

Note that your Raymarine AP will interface with any plotter on the same NMEA network. You will NOT be able to engage or control the AP from the plotter, but the plotter will be able you navigate to a waypoint, follow a route, or steer to wind angle (assuming you have a wind instrument). If you have a Raymarine plotter then you CAN engage and control the AP from the plotter.

B&G used to have the best gear for sailing and particularly for racing but Garmin and Raymarine have caught up recently. B&G was first with SailSteer and Startline functions but Garmin and Raymarine have similar functions now.

Note that I have zero experience with forward looking sonar. On my boat I have a standard DST800 and I added a cheap garmin SONAR transducer. I can and do run both at the same time. I have them set to different frequencies so they don't interfere with each other. The DST is good for showing the depth number and that is displayed on my instrument display. I use the SONAR display when I am in a shallow water and when I want to anchor so I have a better idea of what the bottom looks like.

Good luck,
Barry

dlochner · Monday at 1:03 PM

BarryL said:
Hello,

Some information for you.

I have used Garmin, Raymarine, and B&G. They are all more similar than different. They all do mostly the same stuff. So, if you have a functioning Raymarine autopilot you should at least consider a new Raymarine plotter.

The newest B&G plotters (Zeus SR, Zeus S) DO NOT support Navionics charts. The older plotters (Zeus 3S, Vulcan) do support Navionics. For ME, this is a big deal, as I use the Navionics Boating app on my phone and IPad. That allows me to create routes on my phone and easily have the routes transferred to my Zeus 3S plotter. Perhaps this isn't such a big deal as B&G has an app that runs on phones and tablets that is SUPPOSED to do the same thing. Note that I have not used the B&G app so I can't comment on how well it works.

Garmin and Raymarine (to the best of my knowledge) can run Navionics charts on their plotters.

Note that your Raymarine AP will interface with any plotter on the same NMEA network. You will NOT be able to engage or control the AP from the plotter, but the plotter will be able you navigate to a waypoint, follow a route, or steer to wind angle (assuming you have a wind instrument). If you have a Raymarine plotter then you CAN engage and control the AP from the plotter.

B&G used to have the best gear for sailing and particularly for racing but Garmin and Raymarine have caught up recently. B&G was first with SailSteer and Startline functions but Garmin and Raymarine have similar functions now.

Note that I have zero experience with forward looking sonar. On my boat I have a standard DST800 and I added a cheap garmin SONAR transducer. I can and do run both at the same time. I have them set to different frequencies so they don't interfere with each other. The DST is good for showing the depth number and that is displayed on my instrument display. I use the SONAR display when I am in a shallow water and when I want to anchor so I have a better idea of what the bottom looks like.

Good luck,
Barry

A few notes.

Navionics is now owned by Garmin.

B&G is owned by Brunswick which also owns a Navionics Competitor, C-Map. Brunswick also owns several other familiar names in the marine industry.

The base chart data is all from the same source, NOAA charts. The major difference between Navionics and C-Map is the way it is presented and the crowd sourced data.

Navico, the parent company of B&G, experienced a difficult decade before Brunswick bought Navico. They were owned by a private equity firm which was more concerned with profit than product quality and development. Right after the merger with Brunswick I spoke with a regional manager at a boat show. The B&G folks were excited by the buyout and hopeful about improving the brand. Right after the Zeus3s was released, the operating system was changed. I believe B&G Chartplotters now run on the Android operating system. This may be why Navionics charts won't run on B&G plotters. Whether Navionics sees this as a lost market and one worth pursuing, is yet to be know. The latest C-Map Charts have more features than their earlier versions.

C-Map was one of the first to provide integration between a table based chart, a web browser based chart, and the Chartplotter. It was a great idea, but the implementation was buggy. This was when they were owned by a private equity firm. And for trivia nerds, both C-Map and AquaMaps are headquartered in the same Italian sea side town, Viareggio, Tuscany.

Captain Larry-DH · Monday at 1:26 PM

No radar? I would think that would be very useful up there.

capta · Monday at 10:56 PM

Joe said:
I don't have any problem with touch screen. Of course I live in a drier weather area and my Vulcan 9 is on a swinging bracket that allows me to get it out of the weather.

I don't think it is about moisture. I lived and sailed the Eastern Caribbean for ten years with zero moisture problems, even though the electronics were in the cockpit on the pedestal, where they got plenty of rain and spray on them. I believe it is more about trying to push the screen correctly when it is rough. Buttons are more tactile than a slick flat screen.

Upgrading Navigation. Requirements incl forward looking sonar

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SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John

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