Upgrades and advice - Hunter 40.5

[redunculous]

So I've been reading a while, had my Hunter 40.5 just over a month and I've been going through it making changes and writing up lists of future work.

This is all new to me as its the first boat I've owned so I apologise for any naivety in advance.

I have the original jabsco's in there and I recently did an overhaul on them both using the maintenance kit available online.

The aft head is not fantastic in all honesty, it doesn't drain 100% (it pumps out and then re-fills ever so slightly - is this normal?). I've also noticed that theres a slight leak which pools just behind the back of the basin. I've not had chance to investigate this further yet.

So I was looking at

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detail.htm?group=1357&cat=1002

and wondering what are the advantages of upgrading to this system as a whole? I've seen Peggy mention the quality of jabsco which worries me.

Id also like to utilise freshwater when flushing, the hunter has a lot of water on board and I don't see a problem with sacrificing some to eliminate odours etc. My questions on this side is

Do I need to separate a water tank for this purpose or can I just plumb it straight into my system ?

Has anyone made this conversion?

Finally, the boat is 16 years old, the PO is not sure what's been done and what hasn't - where is the best place for me to start inspecting hoses and overhauling / replacing where necessary.

Thanks in advance

Redunc

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

When we replaced our aft head with a Raritan Seaera electric, I isolated the aft water tank as a source for the head and it's worked well in that the aft tank and the holding tank are similar in volume meaning it's a good indicator of when the holding tank is full.

 

[redunculous]

Thanks for the response Don

I am looking at freshwater in both heads, is it necessary to isolate the fresh water from the main system? I understand about cross contamination but surely if done correctly there should be no issues (not saying you didn't do yours correctly and I understand the why I just wish to do both heads)

I looked at electric toilets for a while but the amp usage I find rather high

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Power requirements are high but only for a very short time so the overall power drain is insignificant. I never bothered with the fwd head as it received little, if any, use in our case. What ever you do, absolutely isolate the water source - it is not possible to preclude the possibility of contamination unless you totally isolate the sources of water.

Great boat!

 

[redunculous]

Thanks Don

Sensible advice

Can I ask why you went to electric - what were the driving factors?

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Primarily because my wife wanted it! I rationalized it based on the fact it will flush a basketball without clogging and requires less maintenance.

 

[Steve Dion]

Ditto on the SeaEra head. If guests dispose of something that it will not grind, it will not go down the line. Everything is ground up before it enters the waste line.

We have had guests "try" to flush baby wipes down this head without success. Just get you needle nose pliers out and remove whatever did not get flushed!

 

[redunculous]

sounds pretty good

I am now swaying towards an electric toilet for the aft head and an upgrade to raritan for the forward head

As for plumbing to the fresh water, I think the ever so popular suggestion of teeing into the sink drain for the forward head would be a solution for a freshwater flush when leaving the boat and to ensure I don't have e-coli contamination (Thanks Don I've researched your comments like crazy) I think isolating the aft tank is the only way forward.

Then I wonder ' do I really need an electric toilet '

The other question I have is, when teeing into the head sink drain line - how does it not pull raw and fresh water at the same time? I fear I am missing something basic here

 

[Bill Roosa]

It all kinda depends on what type of sailing you intend to do. If you are going to go cruising then those fresh water tanks are pretty handy on long passages. Or you can invest in a water maker/rain catcher to refill the smaller tanks. Water makers are EXPENSIVE and POWER HUNGRY
I know that for a crew of two adults on a 2 week cruise we can get by on 110 gal without refilling but we are deep into the 20 gal tanks at that point. We drink a lot of coffee; take a quick (2-3 gal) shower each night and all the other normal dishes type stuff.
If you are just day sailing then that would work fine I'm thinking.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

The other question I have is, when teeing into the head sink drain line - how does it not pull raw and fresh water at the same time? I fear I am missing something basic here

just close the sink drain seacock.

 

[redunculous]

Yes but surely the head itself will pull from its raw water source?

 

[redunculous]

Rich thought he was talking about a sea water toilet, which should NEVER be connected to the fresh water plumbing. However, toilets that are designed to use pressurized flush CAN be safely connected to fresh water plumbing...that's how they're designed to work. And the Elegance is designed to use pressurized flush water.

I saw this on another post, perhaps the choice of head will ease the installation?

Bill thanks for the advice as always

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Yes but surely the head itself will pull from its raw water source?

not if you close the only way for it to enter

 

[redunculous]

not if you close the only way for it to enter

Don would you leave that closed as well when you left the boat for a period of time?

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Anyone mind if I join the conversation?

You said, "The aft head doesn't drain 100% (it pumps out and then re-fills ever so slightly - is this normal?)"

No...it may only be a function of a failed/worn out joker valve ALLOWING waste left in the head discharge line to run back into the bowl...or it may be due to a blocked tank vent that's pressurized the system, PUSHING waste back into the bowl. Don't use the toilet again till you make the sure the tank vent is completely open. The two most common locations for a vent blockage the vent thru-hull and the connection to the tank.

"Id also like to utilise freshwater when flushing...",

Only 3 ways to do that: 1. sink drain line...2. Separate flush water tank (which should NOT just be another unused tank in the fresh water system, but should be completely separate--separate fill, separate vent)...3. Electric toilet designed to use pressurized fresh water. It is not necessary to isolate the flush water source for a toilet that's designed to use pressurized flush water...they CAN be safely connected to the potable water plumbing. Toilets designed to use pressurized flush water are also much quieter and use less power AND flush water than sea water toilets.

You asked, " when teeing into the head sink drain line - how does it not pull raw and fresh water at the same time?"

The toilet can only pull fresh water if there's fresh water in the sink...a line connected to a drain line cannot pull water out of any other plumbing. If there's no water in the sink, it can only pull in sea water through an open thru-hull. If the sink drain seacock is closed AND the sink is empty, the toilet can't pull in any water at all.

Today's electric toilets only need about .5 gal. water/flush...The average adult uses the toilet 5x/24 hrs...so that's about 3 gal/person/day if you're cruising.

As for power consumption...Don's idea of "high" must be anything more than a 10w LED! 'Cuz today's electric sea water toilets only draw about 16 amps for no more than about 10 seconds. Pressurized flush water toilets draw about 30% less--only about 10 amps for the same amount of time. If you can't afford that much water and 12v power for the toilet, toilet useage is the least of your worries!

Three toilets I recommend, all Raritan and consistantly top rated by Practical Sailor: Manual toilet: the PH II (but don't even THINK of adding a motor to it!) Electric, either the SeaEra or, if you REALLY want to go "uptown," the Marine Elegance. And I'd go with the pressurized fresh water versions. See 'em all here: Raritan Toilets

Finally, the boat is 16 years old, the PO is not sure what's been done and what hasn't - where is the best place for me to start inspecting hoses and overhauling / replacing where necessary

If the PO isn't sure, it means he's never done anything, not even any maintenance...tha'ts NOT a good sign! So I would replace everything--toilets, ALL the hoses...tank too, if it's metal...and in your waters, I'd even consider adding an ElectroScan or Purasan (USCG certified treatment device that treats and discharges a flush at a time with -0- negative environmental impact and legal in your waters) if your budget can stand it. Get everything to a new "square one" and start keeping records so that you AND future owners will know what's been done and when.

Recommission the fresh water system too...I've posted the instructions enough times that you should have no trouble finding 'em if you search this forum.

And one more thing...close ALL seacocks when leaving the boat! Open seacocks when no one is aboard is the best way to sink a boat in its slip.

 

[redunculous]

Re: Anyone mind if I join the conversation?

Peggy

Thanks for the response - I'm still digesting it all (I didnt realise my head utilized the sink drain seacock for its intake so thanks for clearing that up)

I would like to ask though, can I utilise the existing piping supplying the faucet and place in a T connector if for example I went for the elegance? I'm thinking of changing my head for the elegance and perhaps putting the PH II in the forward bathroom as I am sure the main will have considerably more use due to its location.

I will certainly replace everything if necessary, is it worth doing your test on the hoses first or simply get rid? I will also check the tank with regards to it being metal as the fuel tank is original too which I am hearing worrying things about on here so I suspect its in the same boat (excuse the pun)

I will search for the fresh water articles, I got to about page 17 of your forum section and didn't see anything so will hit the search box

Thank you again for your advice

 

[redunculous]

Re-reading that, I still may be off on the seacock part - 2 am here so I do apologise if I am

I suppose its easier to ask

Where does my head pull its raw water from?

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Peggy
I didn't say the head power usage was high. I said "Power requirements are high but only for a very short time so the overall power drain is insignificant."

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Unless a PO has modified the head intake...

...your toilet does NOT (yet) draw flush water via the head sink drain. Rerouting it to do that is a recommended modification.

You asked, "can I utilise the existing piping supplying the faucet and place in a T connector if for example I went for the elegance?"

Yes. However, I wouldn't use just a tee or a wye...I'd install a shutoff valve instead, to give you the ability to stop the flow of water to the toilet to service it without having to turn of the water pump to the whole boat.

"...is it worth doing your test on the hoses first or simply get rid? "

That depends on which hose...and how old it is. Hoses become hard and brittle as they age...so if they're anywhere near 10 years old or older, replace 'em. Some hoses are more resistant to odor permeation than others...so which "make/model" hose can indicate whether you'd be wise to replace it now whether it stinks now or not, while you're in "rehab mode" instead of later when you wish you had. That's always a gamble.

Hey Don...if you think 10 amps is a high power requirement (duration not withstanding), one of the early Raritan Crown Head toilets drew 50! In fact, the current Raritan Crown Head draws 36...and that abominable Jabsco manual -electric "conversion" draws 26!

 

[redunculous]

Peggy, appreciate your patience here

What I meant was this (I think)

Currently the head pulls in raw water from outside, if I tee off the forward head to use the sink for a clean flush before I leave the boat for extended periods surely because its now linked to both it will still pull raw water in from outside as well?

I'm just confused how when I leave the boat I flush with only fresh water as the boat will be linked to raw and sink drain?

For the aft head I'm going for the pressurised elegance

I never thought I'd get excited by a toilet but I am

Maybe I should just go all out and install elegances in forward and aft

This is hard work and I've not even done any manual labour yet!