Up, down, or sideways?

[Bob Todd]

About the drool factor...

I go to the Newport boat show every year. And, while I certainly see boats that I feel are nice, I've never found myself drooling over one. I would certainly consider that as being contented with what I have.With regard to the class issue, never in our lives has it been so easy to obtain credit. And not just a little credit...TONS of credit. In this day and age all you have to do is sign a piece of paper and it's yours. Can't make ownership payments? Fine...they'll lease it to you.There are far too many people out there living on the edge. I could EASILY afford to finance a new boat. I choose not to; not because I have something against new boats, but because Americans carry far too much debt than they should. There are many people in my club alone that would be in financial ruin at the slightest hiccup in the economy.I think we are more appreciative of something that we worked hard to achieve. I find it hard to appreciate something I'd have to over-extend myself for.As far as civility goes, Rich hit it right on the head. There aren't too many sailors that I know of who suffer from boat envy. Most that I associate with appreciate another boat, but are quite content with what they have. Funny how that doesn't exist with cars, homes, etc.BTW...great thread. Many good opinions.Cheers,Bob

 

[Joedy]

hmmmmmmm

who wouldnt like a new boat.But we also have to keep in mind the classics.I have a 1974 catlaina 22 all I can say I have a lot of fun and its not expensive to keep.My father inlaw has a hughs 38 beautiful boat.But every time it comes winter he wishes he had my boat.I pull up to the ramp load it up and store it next to my house and when spring comes I work on it right at my house,no trips to the boat yard.THANK GOD.So it all has its up and downs.My theory is If i cant tow it I cant afford it. HAHAHAHA

 

[cap james]

new? HAH..sumone else can pay the premium....

There is no Question. If you are going to be in for a limited time then buy new, use it, and recoup the expense for the time elapsed, figure into taxes, sell, and go back to the life you dared to leave for the possibility of a story to tell to your landlubber buddies and just hope they are sufficiently impressed to justify the expenditure.and that's all I have to say about that.............

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Tomm, here's what replaced that @#$%

Snaped this shot a couple of hours ago. Linda was in a cleaning mood so I talked her into helping wash the boat too. We just finished.

 

[Mike]

Rich is right !

Buying a boat is not a necessity, no matter how much we love to sail, and we do! A house, a car, the kids education, those are necessities. I've only sailed used boats. I've been lucky so far in that I paid less for the boats than the upgrades that I added over time, and own a boat at about 25% of the cost of a new one. The bottom line is this. My 1975 Catalina 22 sails just as well as a 2005 catalina 22, maybe even better. I have a new main and 150% furling genoa, all lines led to the cockpit, and about $15,000 more dollars than the guy who bought a new C22. And I'm happy!

 

[Steve Hunter]

Can't Justify/Afford a New Boat

I've never owned a new boat, never lived in a new home and have only purchased used cars for the last twenty five years. New virgin toys are for the financially well healed of which I certainly do not qualify. As income disparities in this country have grown excessively in the last 10 to 15 years we have the rich which seemingly can afford any boat they wish and the rest of us. Here in Seattle, Paul Allen of Microsoft fame is building the world's largest yacht at some obscene cost. In polite circles it is called a "statement" and in not so polite circles a "penis" boat.I find it hard to justify the cost of a new boat. A well founded used boat of reasonable pedegree is a considerably better value in my estimation. It frequently has all of those little extras like PFD's, fenders, lines, dinghy etc that can add up to a small fortune for a new boat. If the boat has been well cared for, often the bugs have been worked out by the previous owner(s) and there is a sufficient history to make oneself aware of any make and models serious flaws from great online clubs such as this. Purchasing a boat either new or used is a royal pain...especially if one has to deal with most of the typical brokers. They love you as long as you do not take too long to find a boat and do not expect any service.Ultimately as a number of people have observed on this site the true pleasure is in the sailing experience not in who has the newest and most expensive floating condo. There is a lot to be said for simplicity. All of that said I would love a new Swan 43...in my dreams.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Steve, I find it hard to criticize the truly rich

like Paul Allen. He SPENDS his money. He and his former partner Bill Gates Jr. who gives away his money are the best examples of the American Dream, except a new boat.

 

[Puffin18332]

An exercize in soul searching

Buying a new Beneteau Oceanis 323 2005 was for my wife and I the best way to go this last spring. We did a thorough search both on our own and with the help of a local dealer for a good used saild boat of about the same size along the Easten seaboard, and there were none (unless they most likely escaped our attention) that seemed to meet our requirements.This is our first new sailboat. We've owned a number of used sailboats over the last 30 years or so, and each one of them had a major problem: osmosis, worn out sails, recurrent engine problems, cracked mast support, just to name a few, and all of them were leaky and consequently humid inside and wet in the bilge.As we are both still working full-time, buying a new boat with a good warranty made more sense to us than taking the chance of buying a used one that would of taken much of our precious leisure time to fix it and/or keep it ship shape.Admittedly, the first year of owning a new sailboat amounts to no more than a prolonged sea trial. It seems that the more popular brand of sailboats manufacturers do not pay as attention to quality control as they should and accordingly we had to attend to all kinds of unfinished work and other glitches. But these were in the details; nothing to do with the major components of our sailboat which turned out just fine (rigging, engine, hull, sails, electrical and plumbing systems, etc.)How about initial depreciation, you might say? Well, for the peace of mind, I'd rather absorb that chunk of money in order to enjoy a new sailboat that incorporates the latest technology, hull design, overall performance and comfort features, especially since we plan on hanging on to it for a few years.I certainly wouldn't buy a new boat and turn it around for another one after two years, unless I got an incredible deal on the price of the new sailboat.Turns out anyway that we did get a very decent deal for our new Beneteau, but that was just the icing on the cake.Blue skies,From the crew of Mahone Belle.

 

[Bob Todd]

Reply to Puffin...

You stated: ..."we had to attend to all kinds of unfinished work and other glitches. But these were in the details; nothing to do with the major components"I'm sorry, but for the price of a new boat I find this type of situation totally unacceptable. If there are QC issues then the dealer and builder need to address them. I find it amazing that a person can overlook a mis-fit cabinet, excess glue, etc. on a boat which they just spent a hundred thousand or so.If I'm going to spend my first year of new boat ownership mending QC defects I might just as well buy a pre-owned boat.As long as people accept this level of quality there is little incentive for the builder to exercise due care. Again, as a frugal Yankee, I want AND EXPECT value for my dollar.Just my eversohumble opinion.Cheers,Bob

 

[Steve Hornberger]

Money Aside

I have bought and sold a number of boats, most of which were Hunters, both new and used. While money is certainly an important issue, I would suggest that quality of construction and history of maintenance serve equally, if not more importantly in the decision-making process. I had a new boat that didn't cost me a thing in dealer fixes after the sale. I had a second new boat that only lasted six months in my ownership...because of all kinds of significant quality control problems. In each case where I bought a used boat, I estimated 20 percent of the purchase price in the final decision as added costs of acquisition and add-on maintenance in the first year. I have never spent that much, even when I bought "project" boats. Logically, buying a boat of any kind to me is a total waste of time, money, and effort. Therefore, it is purely an emotional "I want" decision. So, I want a boat that suits my needs and wants. It is not necessary that it be new. It needs to suit my intended purpose.My Hunter 37.5 is currently For Sale. It was a family boat to us, and a "project boat". It served our family quite well for five seasons and gave me the opportunity to refurbish, rebuild, and maintain something that I thoroughly enjoyed. She offers the results of those efforts, but she is nonetheless For Sale, and that is an emotional decision for what I consider very good reason.I am now planning my retirement and looking at buying a long distance live aboard cruising boat. Other than our retirement plans, there is no emotional or logical reason to sell our present boat should we continue our present lifestyle. Accordingly, we want a very specific kind of replacement for our current boat. We looked at new and used. I think I have found what I want. It is slightly larger than my current boat. It is also quite well equipped and experienced as a long distance cruising boat. It's individual history indicates that she was cared for very carefully by her present owners. And, it meets our expectations monetarily. Perhaps a well equipped "new" boat would have served the same need and want, too. But, we are satisfied that we are likely going to purchase what we "want" in the one we selected.So, it would seem that buying a boat is a number of issues all rolled into one. When all those issues come together, does it really matter whether or not it is new or used? It is a very personal decision based on emotional wants and needs. Still, logically, it is a very large hole in the water into which you throw a lot of money...because you want to. And, we want to go cruising.

 

[Tim F.]

A number of manufacturers...

...broke the Quality Control code a number of years ago when they made you, the buyer of their new products, their Chief of Quality Control. You buy a new product (boat, car, computer, software, etc.), take it home, discover the bugs and then bring it back to be fixed or repaired -- if you can convince the seller to do so. In such an environment, why should they care about quality control in the first place? You having fun yet?When you buy a used boat, the previous owner, or some other schmuck, was the quality control officer for that boat. Your only job is to figure out how well he did or didn't do his job. To me this means: (1) buy a used boat with a reputation for quality; (2) using any number of books on the market (ie, Casey's Surveying an Old Boat, etc.), survey it yourself. It really isn't too hard to separate winners from losers; (3) then hire a professional surveyor who has experience with the type and kind of boat you are thinking of buying; and (4) go to the bank and deposit the thousands you saved instead of buying a new boat where you are the Quality Control guy for your own boat.

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Puffin really said that, didn't he?

Had to re-read it twice,,, *pop Puffin, this is the 21st,,but you know that, don't you?

 

[WaltG]

Go Used,...Unless

The unless is:1. Money is not an issue in your life2. You don't want to or are unable to do alot of your own maintenance.Regarding the money issue, you can get alot of boat for relatively a fraction of the cost of an equivalent new one. Case in point is my 1980 28' Sabre I paid $15,000 for seven years ago. An equivalent new boat would cost over $100,000 and even so the quality may not be as good as the older boat which were built with more TLC and less mass production.And sailboats really have not changed that much in the last 25 years, as compared to cars for example. So why spend all that extra money!The drawback to an older boat is higher cost of maintenance because more things will need repair. This cost can be held down if you're willing and able to do your own work. A benefit of that also is that you will know your boat better and more confident when you take her out.

 

[Paisano]

Good Value with Used

I've been looking to go bigger from a 17' to a 20 -22 ft. pocket trailer cruiser for a few years. During that time I have seen pics on the web and boats in driveways w/ price tags. I've seen a lot of very good late model boats out there that you can get for 1/8 - 1/3 the cost of new. So with my limited resources I would definitely go used. Of Course I'm not going Blue Water sailing and for now I've just got my well maintained 36 year old Oday Daysailer that keeps on plugging...

 

[Liam]

used is good advice

Last year when I decided to upgrade to a 33 foot boat, deciding on a model was hard. Once I did, I started looking for a good clean lightly used boat. I found a 2003 with about 100 hours on the engine and 700 miles on the knotlog. The boat had been owned by a knowlegable skipper and very well cared for in the year and a half that he owned it.It came with all the invoices and reciepts for gear and was well commissioned.The total investment by the original owner was $135k plus tax. He was asking $105k. I offered and we negotiated. In the end I paid $87K. I hired one of the most picky surveyors on the west coast and he found the boat to be in "like new" condition with no recomendations. In the last 7 months of sailing the boat I have found the survey to be correct. It's a great boat in perfect condition. I'm happy.I guess my advice is decide what you want and then be patient and enjoy the process of finding it. There are some really good values out there. Buying used doesn't mean buying old. It actually took me about 5 months to find the right boat and buy it.Best of luck, Liam.

 

[Scott]

Good example, Liam!

As long as there are plenty of people willing to accept that kind of depreciation and continue to buy new boats, the used market will be very attractive as well.That's why I always say "Thank God for rich people!" They make it happen for all of us. Trickle down works!There is no need for envy. I count myself very lucky to have a boat to enjoy, even if it is 20 years old. Right now she is giving us the experience we hoped for, and in a few years we will be in the market to move up to a larger boat. I suspect that we will look in the used market, but if the winds of fortune are fair ... who knows?

 

[Doug L]

Class warfare?

Gosh, there seems to be a bit of class warfare going on here!I previously posted that used was my choice, amd it is, but when it comes right down to it, it is a decision we all make on how to spend out money. I see a fine looking Camaro in one of the posts. I had to let my Sunbeam Tiger go to afford my new/used boat, but if I chose to live in a lesser house, and perhaps drive used cars instead of new ones, I could have gone for the new boat instead of the used one. My priorities lead me to these choices, but whth slightly different priorities it could be the new boat.

 

[Mark Wieber]

Any body else pay taxes?

No matter what I do to fix up our 1985 C36, I still pay taxes on a 1985 C36. The new C36 will cost around $130,000 to $150,000 and be taxed accordingly. You get in-mast or in-boom furling, a walk through transom, a nicer aft bedroom set up, a better shower, and modern waste desposal systems. Plus you get all the positives that go with owning something new.I was on a 47ft Tayana at a boat show last year. Beautifully equiped. Just awesome!The point?? Big, small, new, used, it is all dictated by budget. Can you afford to buy it? Can you afford to properly maintain it? And, yes, can you afford the taxes?Would I like a bigger, newer boat? Yes please However, like Sheryl Crow sings, "it's not getting what you want, but wanting what you got"

 

[ex-admin]

Final results

Final results for the Quick Quiz ending October 16, 2005:If I were looking for another boat I would prefer a:59% Used boat17% New boat17% Thanks, but I like what I have now06% Pros and cons are equal

 

[Puffin]

New doesn't mean sail-away

I retract some of my comments about the advantages of buying a new sailboat. This last summer, after taking delivery of our new Beneteau 323 in June of 2005, we have been plagued by a number of minor defects in our Beneteau which tend to show that the company pays lip service to quality control. One such minor defect could have been a costly one, i.e.: when a clamp brooke loose after a month of sailing thereby causing a flood inside our new sailboat. The electric bilge pump woudl't work because all it was pumping was not water but construction debris floating about in the sub-floor laminate (i.e.: invisible to the eye until you need to use the bilge pump. We had to clean the filter screen every minute of pumping or so.The floor boards in the cabin would flip up on us depending on where you were standing and the aft cabin boards wouldn't lie flat either because the house battery box was set too high underneath them, something the dealer was a design flaw which he couldn't deal with.And the list goes on...The end result, we spent the summer of 2005 making short cruises around our home port just in case. So, yes, the first sailing seson was one long sea trial marred by frustrations of all kinds, something I now realize we didn't deserve after paying over $100,000 for our new Beneteau 323.Sail on,Puffin