Thanks for all your input, and just to follow up, We took the fuel pump to the company that rebuilds them, and they said the problem was definitely on the oil side of the pump and not the fuel side. We've changed the oil again, just to make sure. Hopefully, we will be ready to go this weekend-next at the latest.
Universal M25 follow-up
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Did they give any indication
Did they give any indication of what the " oil side of the pump " means. Not getting any oil at all, not enough oil, oil bad. There is still something that to my feeble mind just doesn't add up. Did they rebuild the pump again, as it was supposedly defective. From what little I know about injector pumps, they are not hydraulically operated and if poor oiling damaged it enough to cause it to not pump, then it would have to be repaired before being put back into use.
Did they give any indication of what the " oil side of the pump " means. Not getting any oil at all, not enough oil, oil bad. There is still something that to my feeble mind just doesn't add up. Did they rebuild the pump again, as it was supposedly defective. From what little I know about injector pumps, they are not hydraulically operated and if poor oiling damaged it enough to cause it to not pump, then it would have to be repaired before being put back into use.
why rebuild
Butch, Check the archives. Last year I was having a fuel pump issue on my M25XP. The pump was made by Facet. Stu recommended getting it at NAPA ... I did and it was made by Facet...same manufaturer and was only about $40. I don't have the part number but it should be in the archives. It has performed flawlessly. Why rebuild if a new one is that price? Good luck.
Butch, Check the archives. Last year I was having a fuel pump issue on my M25XP. The pump was made by Facet. Stu recommended getting it at NAPA ... I did and it was made by Facet...same manufaturer and was only about $40. I don't have the part number but it should be in the archives. It has performed flawlessly. Why rebuild if a new one is that price? Good luck.
Been folliowing your M25 problem
cause I like to see problems fixed but, I do not understand how you go from a fuel problem to an oil problem. I definately agree with NicenEasy - Is it the injector pump? Can anyone tell us how an oil problem cause the problems you described. It sounds like you went from mechanic #3 to #4 now. Hope this works out for you - it sure has been a struggle.
cause I like to see problems fixed but, I do not understand how you go from a fuel problem to an oil problem. I definately agree with NicenEasy - Is it the injector pump? Can anyone tell us how an oil problem cause the problems you described. It sounds like you went from mechanic #3 to #4 now. Hope this works out for you - it sure has been a struggle.
Rebuilding a fuel pump???
Here's the link to the earlier fuel pump answer that Stephen mentioned. If you're talking about a raw water pump, then you're dealing with seals.
Here's the link to the earlier fuel pump answer that Stephen mentioned. If you're talking about a raw water pump, then you're dealing with seals.
reply to: did they give any indication
yes, this is the lubricating side of the pump. It is lubricated in a bath of engine oil. The engine oil had been contaminated with sea water from a cracked seal on the raw water pump. It seems the raw water pump is shaft driven rather than belt driven and the water got in around the shaft. And, yes, the pump is being rebuilt.
yes, this is the lubricating side of the pump. It is lubricated in a bath of engine oil. The engine oil had been contaminated with sea water from a cracked seal on the raw water pump. It seems the raw water pump is shaft driven rather than belt driven and the water got in around the shaft. And, yes, the pump is being rebuilt.
reply to been following...
Nope still on #3, and only went to #3 because #2 is in just too high demand with much bigger jobs. It took almost 6 weeks for him to get to my boat the first time and from my first call to having the raw water pump replaced was easily 3+ months.
Nope still on #3, and only went to #3 because #2 is in just too high demand with much bigger jobs. It took almost 6 weeks for him to get to my boat the first time and from my first call to having the raw water pump replaced was easily 3+ months.
A wet blanket
I hate to be the one to throw a wet blanket on this little party. BUT If you got enough water in the oil to contaminate it to the point of ruining or damaging the injector pump, have you wondered about the bearings in the engine. I think that would concern me. Secondly, if the pump is splash lubricated, that would indicate to me that the only thing to possibly gum up would be the drive gears. Water should not get inside the pump, Also, water in oil will do a lot of things, or should I say won't do a number of things, such a lubricate. But gumming up is not one I have seen. And if I understand the sequence of things, the raw water pump was repaired, and the injector pump rebuilt, and the rebuilt pump then went bad because of an "oil failure". It is very possible that I am just too dense to get it, but this still doesn't work for me. I went back and re read the origional post from 4/26, and no mention was made of changing the oil. Was not the oil and filter changed after the raw water pump was repaired. Oil floats on water, so all the water would have been on the bottom, and pretty well removed with an oil change. There is a very good lesson to be learned here though. Check you oil regularly. Pulling the dipstick, would have shown you there was water in the oil, and something needed attention. I know that it can be a hard habit to get into, when an engine is only run a few hours a season, and burns no oil, but can save a lot of grief. Every time my boat goes out, before the engine is started, I check the oil.
I hate to be the one to throw a wet blanket on this little party. BUT If you got enough water in the oil to contaminate it to the point of ruining or damaging the injector pump, have you wondered about the bearings in the engine. I think that would concern me. Secondly, if the pump is splash lubricated, that would indicate to me that the only thing to possibly gum up would be the drive gears. Water should not get inside the pump, Also, water in oil will do a lot of things, or should I say won't do a number of things, such a lubricate. But gumming up is not one I have seen. And if I understand the sequence of things, the raw water pump was repaired, and the injector pump rebuilt, and the rebuilt pump then went bad because of an "oil failure". It is very possible that I am just too dense to get it, but this still doesn't work for me. I went back and re read the origional post from 4/26, and no mention was made of changing the oil. Was not the oil and filter changed after the raw water pump was repaired. Oil floats on water, so all the water would have been on the bottom, and pretty well removed with an oil change. There is a very good lesson to be learned here though. Check you oil regularly. Pulling the dipstick, would have shown you there was water in the oil, and something needed attention. I know that it can be a hard habit to get into, when an engine is only run a few hours a season, and burns no oil, but can save a lot of grief. Every time my boat goes out, before the engine is started, I check the oil.
Some other thoughts per N&E's
It just burns me up when a sailor gets jerked around by mechanics and is forced to waste time by being at their mercy, losing valuable time and money. That said, it also seems that being able to identify parts is also important. There are so many M25 engines out there, so many websites with manuals, and so much additional help, that it is hard for us to help you, Butch, when even we are confused over the part you are describing. Was it the fuel pump, raw water pump, fresh water pump, etc.? One of the things I've found, after doing my own hassling with mechanics, is that if I want it done right I do it myself. There was a discussion about this in another thread within the last few weeks. The first step is identifying the part, the second is buying it myself, and, only if by then I thought I couldn't do it, I hired some help and was there when he was. There may be some merit in establishing some specificity regarding the parts of your engine and learning more about it, for merely safety’s sake for you. Of course, we’ll continue to do our best to give you hand if we can. The link provides info on parts and service for your engine. The C30, C34 and C36 Association websites have ALL of manuals you could ever want. When we bought our boat in 1998, I knew NOTHING about the engine. But within the first month I'd replaced the raw water pump. How long did it take? Ten minutes to buy the new pump, two days to get the old nuts off the studs, and two hours to slap th new pump into place. I didn't wait months for some dumb-ass "mechanic" and I know YOU, too, can do it.
It just burns me up when a sailor gets jerked around by mechanics and is forced to waste time by being at their mercy, losing valuable time and money. That said, it also seems that being able to identify parts is also important. There are so many M25 engines out there, so many websites with manuals, and so much additional help, that it is hard for us to help you, Butch, when even we are confused over the part you are describing. Was it the fuel pump, raw water pump, fresh water pump, etc.? One of the things I've found, after doing my own hassling with mechanics, is that if I want it done right I do it myself. There was a discussion about this in another thread within the last few weeks. The first step is identifying the part, the second is buying it myself, and, only if by then I thought I couldn't do it, I hired some help and was there when he was. There may be some merit in establishing some specificity regarding the parts of your engine and learning more about it, for merely safety’s sake for you. Of course, we’ll continue to do our best to give you hand if we can. The link provides info on parts and service for your engine. The C30, C34 and C36 Association websites have ALL of manuals you could ever want. When we bought our boat in 1998, I knew NOTHING about the engine. But within the first month I'd replaced the raw water pump. How long did it take? Ten minutes to buy the new pump, two days to get the old nuts off the studs, and two hours to slap th new pump into place. I didn't wait months for some dumb-ass "mechanic" and I know YOU, too, can do it.
Modern mechanics
This is not a blanket statement, and not meant to offend anyone, but a large percentage of todays so called mechanics are nothing more than parts changers. This is partly due to the growing complexity of modern engines and associated pieces, but it is getting to be the norm. All these guys do is read the manual, and if it gives a cause or cure for a common problem, they change that part. If that doesn't fix it, they change another part. Sooner or later they get it right. From what I see, there is no thought process, no common sense involved. There are a lot of reasons for learning to do your own work. Usually it's done better and much cheaper than if you hired it done. Labor rates in my area are approaching 100 bucks an hour, plus travel time. And a lot of them are idiots. But the biggest benefit is knowing your boat, and when it hits the fan, and if you sail enough it will, you will be able to fix things yourself, when no other help is available. OK Now I'll get down of the soap box.
This is not a blanket statement, and not meant to offend anyone, but a large percentage of todays so called mechanics are nothing more than parts changers. This is partly due to the growing complexity of modern engines and associated pieces, but it is getting to be the norm. All these guys do is read the manual, and if it gives a cause or cure for a common problem, they change that part. If that doesn't fix it, they change another part. Sooner or later they get it right. From what I see, there is no thought process, no common sense involved. There are a lot of reasons for learning to do your own work. Usually it's done better and much cheaper than if you hired it done. Labor rates in my area are approaching 100 bucks an hour, plus travel time. And a lot of them are idiots. But the biggest benefit is knowing your boat, and when it hits the fan, and if you sail enough it will, you will be able to fix things yourself, when no other help is available. OK Now I'll get down of the soap box.
Modern mechanics
This is not a blanket statement, and not meant to offend anyone, but a large percentage of todays so called mechanics are nothing more than parts changers. This is partly due to the growing complexity of modern engines and associated pieces, but it is getting to be the norm. All these guys do is read the manual, and if it gives a cause or cure for a common problem, they change that part. If that doesn't fix it, they change another part. Sooner or later they get it right. From what I see, there is no thought process, no common sense involved. There are a lot of reasons for learning to do your own work. Usually it's done better and much cheaper than if you hired it done. Labor rates in my area are approaching 100 bucks an hour, plus travel time. And a lot of them are idiots. But the biggest benefit is knowing your boat, and when it hits the fan, and if you sail enough it will, you will be able to fix things yourself, when no other help is available. OK Now I'll get down of the soap box.
This is not a blanket statement, and not meant to offend anyone, but a large percentage of todays so called mechanics are nothing more than parts changers. This is partly due to the growing complexity of modern engines and associated pieces, but it is getting to be the norm. All these guys do is read the manual, and if it gives a cause or cure for a common problem, they change that part. If that doesn't fix it, they change another part. Sooner or later they get it right. From what I see, there is no thought process, no common sense involved. There are a lot of reasons for learning to do your own work. Usually it's done better and much cheaper than if you hired it done. Labor rates in my area are approaching 100 bucks an hour, plus travel time. And a lot of them are idiots. But the biggest benefit is knowing your boat, and when it hits the fan, and if you sail enough it will, you will be able to fix things yourself, when no other help is available. OK Now I'll get down of the soap box.
I have to say
That I agree with a lot of people posted. It is definately best to do your own work. Unfortunately, like me, most people are intimidated by engines and they are afraid that they will harm them because they don't know what they are doing. I have done some really basic stuff with my engine and I learn more every year. Ideally, I would like to be able to change my injectors and do basic work like that. That being said, I think that I will probably invest in a diesel class one day to have that kind of knowledge. Not only will it save you money in the long run, but it will also make you much more self reliant when it comes to working on the engine when the stuff has hit the fan.
That I agree with a lot of people posted. It is definately best to do your own work. Unfortunately, like me, most people are intimidated by engines and they are afraid that they will harm them because they don't know what they are doing. I have done some really basic stuff with my engine and I learn more every year. Ideally, I would like to be able to change my injectors and do basic work like that. That being said, I think that I will probably invest in a diesel class one day to have that kind of knowledge. Not only will it save you money in the long run, but it will also make you much more self reliant when it comes to working on the engine when the stuff has hit the fan.
One of the concepts is to do your own work to avoid it hitting the fan in the fi
Intimidation IS the name of the game. Everyone comes at something from a different place. Maybe we all bought boats, maybe for different reasons. But for the many folks posting here on this forum, they seem to have developed a level of care and understanding far superior to the "turn the key and go" guys by at least putting in the effort to find this website in the first place. It's a matter of time and interest to learn something new. All depends first on your approach and second how much time you do put into it. Techniques? Go to the boat with a handbook about your engine, and figure out where the parts are. Then maybe consider taking a diesel class, but as we've previously mentioned here, you can learn about how a diesel works from a book, but ALL you EVER want to REALLY know is how the diesel engine in YOUR own boat works. Since there are only a handful of different types of engines in our boats, we're not talking a wide range of variations. Anything you need to know about your engine, Bad, has most likely already been written and reported. I strongly urge folks to get to know their engines: it's many times a safety issue. And, you'll feel REALLY great when, finally, you're NOT surprised when it ALWAYS starts!
Intimidation IS the name of the game. Everyone comes at something from a different place. Maybe we all bought boats, maybe for different reasons. But for the many folks posting here on this forum, they seem to have developed a level of care and understanding far superior to the "turn the key and go" guys by at least putting in the effort to find this website in the first place. It's a matter of time and interest to learn something new. All depends first on your approach and second how much time you do put into it. Techniques? Go to the boat with a handbook about your engine, and figure out where the parts are. Then maybe consider taking a diesel class, but as we've previously mentioned here, you can learn about how a diesel works from a book, but ALL you EVER want to REALLY know is how the diesel engine in YOUR own boat works. Since there are only a handful of different types of engines in our boats, we're not talking a wide range of variations. Anything you need to know about your engine, Bad, has most likely already been written and reported. I strongly urge folks to get to know their engines: it's many times a safety issue. And, you'll feel REALLY great when, finally, you're NOT surprised when it ALWAYS starts!
Also a matter of safety
to know the engine as well as the boat. Diesel engines are much simpler than gas, at leat theoretically, fuel and compression. We've had our 84 C30 for almost 5 years. It has the M25, Kubota D850, and I emphasize the Kubota. Get the Kubota service manual which is most helpful and well as a print out of the Marine Diesel Direct parts catalog so you can reference most of the engine parts and recognize which are Kubota and which are the marinized parts. Buy parts from Kubota when possible, marine stores will most likely charge double. Get to know the engine. Mine had some white smoke from the exhaust. Oil, fuel or steam? Smoke only visible after warming up, dissapated quickly and increased as the temperature increased. Steam. I did clean out the heat exchanger (HX). Later the steam increased but the temp never got bad. To make a long story short, I dove into the problem and found the HX inlet to be almost fully clogged, cleaned out and ran engine. After a while oil spurted out the breather hose, water in the crankcase. I do not recall checking the oil level after the steam was really bad, so the crankcase could have been contaninated before cleaning the HX. Possibilities, blown head gasket, cracked head, cracked block. Again, short story, clogged heat exchanger put additional pressure on the raw water pump. Raw water pump failed, rusted drain holes forced water into engine rather than into the bilge. I found this by accident when I took off the raw water pump to access the crankcase drain bolt. Then failing fresh water pump. Now all is well, I feel good that I did it. I changed the oil and filter three times. Now it runs between 165 and 170 degrees. Stu said intimidation is the name of the game, it sure is a big part, I know. I have a Kubota parts and repair shop near my office, very friendly and helpful. Did I mention to buy what you can form them, fresh water pump $100, oil filters $4.50, upper gasket set $70, injectors $60. Get to know your boat. Next for me is the electrical systems. Yikes! Just kidding, I think.
to know the engine as well as the boat. Diesel engines are much simpler than gas, at leat theoretically, fuel and compression. We've had our 84 C30 for almost 5 years. It has the M25, Kubota D850, and I emphasize the Kubota. Get the Kubota service manual which is most helpful and well as a print out of the Marine Diesel Direct parts catalog so you can reference most of the engine parts and recognize which are Kubota and which are the marinized parts. Buy parts from Kubota when possible, marine stores will most likely charge double. Get to know the engine. Mine had some white smoke from the exhaust. Oil, fuel or steam? Smoke only visible after warming up, dissapated quickly and increased as the temperature increased. Steam. I did clean out the heat exchanger (HX). Later the steam increased but the temp never got bad. To make a long story short, I dove into the problem and found the HX inlet to be almost fully clogged, cleaned out and ran engine. After a while oil spurted out the breather hose, water in the crankcase. I do not recall checking the oil level after the steam was really bad, so the crankcase could have been contaninated before cleaning the HX. Possibilities, blown head gasket, cracked head, cracked block. Again, short story, clogged heat exchanger put additional pressure on the raw water pump. Raw water pump failed, rusted drain holes forced water into engine rather than into the bilge. I found this by accident when I took off the raw water pump to access the crankcase drain bolt. Then failing fresh water pump. Now all is well, I feel good that I did it. I changed the oil and filter three times. Now it runs between 165 and 170 degrees. Stu said intimidation is the name of the game, it sure is a big part, I know. I have a Kubota parts and repair shop near my office, very friendly and helpful. Did I mention to buy what you can form them, fresh water pump $100, oil filters $4.50, upper gasket set $70, injectors $60. Get to know your boat. Next for me is the electrical systems. Yikes! Just kidding, I think.
Kubota Sources
For years I'd heard about Kubota prices being much less expensive than marine prices. Being a "city boy" I figured we were pretty far from where the tractors lived, and the tractor dealers. But I had a situation that got me to actually find a dealer close by, and did. See reply #6 on the link (and you can also read the whole thread). You can order by mail from these guys, or find one, just like I did, by using your computer fingers and Google. Not so hard...
For years I'd heard about Kubota prices being much less expensive than marine prices. Being a "city boy" I figured we were pretty far from where the tractors lived, and the tractor dealers. But I had a situation that got me to actually find a dealer close by, and did. See reply #6 on the link (and you can also read the whole thread). You can order by mail from these guys, or find one, just like I did, by using your computer fingers and Google. Not so hard...
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