UNIVERSAL M-25XP SHUTS DOWN

[Debevoise]

The problem I am encountering is that the Universal engine is "shutting down" at 2300RPM after 4-5 minutes under load (prop engaged). It shuts down almost immediately at 2800RPM. I can run it for extended periods below 2300RPM (2-3 hours) without any issues. The shut down is fairly quick with no smoke or sputtering. There is a 200RPM decay @ 30 seconds before the shutdown. This has been duplicated 10-12 times. It does not shutdown at any speed when not under load.

Initially the mech thought it might be a fuel injector pump issue. We pulled the fuel injector pump, had it "rebuilt", and bench tested. No issues were found. The fuel injector pump timing was checked and found to be correct. We replaced the electric fuel pump (since I had a spare) and the output was measures at 5.1 PSI. We were thinking air was getting in and placed clear plastic pipe directly into the electric fuel pump and at the diesel return. No air was present at the input to the electric fuel pump and flow was not disrupted to the electric fuel pump. Interestingly we saw no fuel in the diesel return at any RPM. RPM was measured with digital gauge. Engine temperature does not increase before, after or during the shutdown. The engine starts up normally immediately after the shutdown.

The mech contacted the engine manufacturer but did not get any good ideas. She is out of ideas and has reached out to some others for ideas. Westerbeke has indicated they will get back to her but is leaning towards the governor. The mech does not buy that since the problem only happens under load and the governor only perceives RPM.

Background: I bought the Catalina 30 1983 boat in October 2015. The survey showed a very high metal content in the oil and antifreeze. I tore the engine down right after I took possession and did a major overhaul. Major included: Head valve job, new pistons and cylider liners, new crank shaft, new glo plugs, new fuel injectors, and a new heat exchanger. The machine shop really did a poor job in estimating and most of the costs crept up on me. I could have bought a new engine for the costs I have invested to date. Also I have found several things the shop did incorrectly so I have little/no confidence in their technical competence. The machine shop did all the "core work" and I did the work on the peripheries (pumps, alternator, starter, heat exchanger, etc).

Does anyone have any ideas as to what is going on?

 

[JohnVTX]

I would only be guessing, but maybe the fuel line between the tank and pump is collapsing. Maybe the line in the tank has a clogged screen.

 

[Benny17441]

It sounds like a fuel starvation issue. The fact that it only happens under load does point to the governor which function is to keep RPM constant to changes in load as perceived at the prop shaft. The 200 RPM drop is an indicator that fuel is getting shut down or inadequate to sustain RPM. Not familiar with Universal engine, would it have a safety high speed limiter? When after the overhaul did the problem start? If it happened immediately after could point to a fault in the installation or a faulty part that was not identified. Since it is easy first check the levers and springs connecting the governor to the injection pump. Other than fuel quality issues, fuel flow issues and overload due to transmission or shaft jamming the most likely possibility is a governor/limiter malfunction.

 

[Debevoise]

We actually ran the clear fuel line right out of a gas can direct to the electric fuel pump to eliminate boat fuel tank, diesel filter, and fuel line issues.

 

[Debevoise]

The governor does have high speed limiter. We have had the issue since the overhaul. I've only got @ 7 hours since overhaul on the engine so far. We did check and replace the 2 governor springs and the levers did appear to be working fine. To get to the rest of the governor I need to remove the gear case cover which is not a trivial job but one the mech did not feel was warranted given the symtoms.

 

[paulj]

low oil pressure switch.........has not been mentioned.

paulj

 

[FastOlson]

An '83 boat is unlikely to have the M25XP engine installed. I believe that model changed sometime in '87.
Originally it probably was a 21 hp model M25. Other than a slightly different Kubota short block underneath, the accessories might be pretty similar.
Have you checked the old Facet electric lift pump? There is an oft-overlooked filter in the base of that pump body.

I have the M25XP (1988) engine and have never had a symptom exactly like your engine. The few times we have had stalling/quitting problems it was always a vacuum leak in the fuel system and last time it was in the original Racor filter unit. Replaced with a newer Racor, and (knock wood) no problems since.
Loren

 

[Benny17441]

"Issue since the overhaul" points to something not installed correctly or a faulty part that was not detected. Check that fuel filter that Fast Olson indicates in the electric lift pump as the symptoms are consistent with a clogged filter causing fuel starvation at high RPM but if it checks out OK you may have to go back into the engine. A fault in the high speed limiter could start shutting off fuel at a lower RPM than intended. Like I said before I'm not familiar with the Universal Diesel so follow the recommendations of your mechanic. This is just food for thought.

 

[Debevoise]

We ended up replacing the Facet electric pump, since I had a new one I had bought for a test stand we used prior to installation after the overhaul. The mech did run a clear hose directly to the electric fuel pump (After the Raycor Filter) that she placed in a gas can filled with diesel to eliminate the boats fuel system as an issue. We duplicated the same issue with the engine shutting down. We also instrumented the line to monitor fuel pressure. So we are fairly confident it is the engine. Does anyone know if there is something that shuts off fuel to the engine when low oil pressure is detected? I've had some friends that disagree with the mech about the governor not being able to distinguish between 2500 RPM loaded and 2500 RPM un-loaded. The service manual has very little info on the governor where might I get more?

 

[Skipper]

The primary function of the governor is to adjust fuel delivery on demand for various loads, for best performance.
It will therefore also act as an over speed buffer, when the centrifugal force of the steel balls overwhelms the governor spring, indicating a lack of load, and mechanically reducing fuel delivery.
If the spring tension is wrong, ie wrong springs, then the governor will be fooled into thinking there is less load than present, and reduce fuel, causing your symptoms. This would account for the lack of fuel return from the injectors, for the governor is being a miser.
This theory is after your already completed tasks of troubleshooting fuel pressure to the injector pump, and after the injector pump on the bench.
I would PM Mainesail.

 

[Donnybrook]

Does anyone know if there is something that shuts off fuel to the engine when low oil pressure is detected?

Never heard of that on a M25/M25XP. An XPB will shut off the fuel pump when oil pressure is low. Don't think that is your problem.

Interestingly we saw no fuel in the diesel return at any RPM.

That is normal on that engine. You might get a drop or two a minute.

Sounds like you have already done most of the things I would have suggested.
A couple of questions. Do you ever see specks of something like pepper come out the exhaust?
Do you have a fuel bypass valve (sometimes called a bleeder valve) on the injector pump?

 

[Debevoise]

Thanks to all for the input. I do not get a chance to see the engine exhaust up close. The exhaust is collected in a riser box and mixed with sea water then blown out the stern. There is a bleeder valve which we did temporarily remove and check to ensure it was fully closed and working properly.

I'm not sure what the comment from Skipper "I would PM Mainesail" means. The idea that the wrong governor springs were installed is worth investigation. I'll double check the part numbers.

 

[Skipper]

I'm not sure what the comment from Skipper "I would PM Mainesail" means.

MaineSail is one of the resident experts on this forum, including Universal diesels. He runs a repair shop in Maine. Search his screen name here to message (pm) him, but he also has a website:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects

 

[Stu Jackson]

OK, kids. let's start over. The OP was EXCELLENT, and described exactly what he did. Why anyone is asking or posting about clean fuel and the "lift pump" leads me to believe we're dealing with Reading Comprehension Issues 101.

Back to the issues for the OP:

1. No fuel return: what have you done with the knurled (bleeding) knob? Is it closed, partially opened or all the way open? When going from open to closed, does the lift pump change clicks?

2. During the rebuild, did the yard monkeys mess with the "guts" of the engine stop lever assembly? The INSIDE of that assembly is quite "finicky" and requires that the springs be aligned precisely. It is about the ONLY thing on your engine (an M25XP - the same, eesentially, as my M25, and nowhere near the crap with the M25XPB - they are different engines, so please stop including them).

I am thin king that the stop lever springs are f-ed up. It's an easy fix, but requires some internet sleuthing to find the "fix", which will require taking the cover off the starboard forward top side of the engine apart.

While you're perusing this reply, I'll look around and see what I can find about it, since a friend of mine had just this issue.

Let's hope we don't have to leave this with a simple Good Luck. I truly want to help you out.
My search on Google will be M25XP stop lever assembly. If you go to the TOAD website, www.marinedieseldirect.com, you can find the "assembly GROUP" for this stuff, showing the guts and the springs. Start there so you start t understand the simplicity as well as the complexity of what is ahead of you.

That's what I'd do.

Does anyone know if there is something that shuts off fuel to the engine when low oil pressure is detected?
Never heard of that on a M25/M25XP. An XPB will shut off the fuel pump when oil pressure is low. Don't think that is your problem.

No, low oil pressure will NOT shut the engine off. It is ONLY an alarm. And, yes, depending on how it is wired, the XP will also turn off the fuel (lift) pump, but if the tank is above the engine, then when half full it doesn't matter. The XP in its later versions changed the wiring so the lift pump only turned on when the glow plugs were operated and/or the oil pressure was "made."

See this long discussion (the OP will need to find out what he's got):

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.msg41829.html#msg41829

 

[Debevoise]

Thanks for your input. We only opened the bleed valve when we introduced air into the fuel lines as a part of the trouble shooting. There was a distinct change in the electric fuel pump pitch when the air cleared out the return and when we shut the valve (which we did prior to any start). The electric fuel pump is activated any time the key is moved to "on" on the engine console. It is definitely independent of the glow plug switch. As a side note, the engine starts very easily.

The machine shop did have to remove all of the guts of the governor and fuel controls. They had to tear it down to a bare block for an acid clean and insertion of the piston sleeves. I supplied all the parts so other than gaskets, O rings, sleeves (std stuff in a major overhaul kit), and pistons nothing else was replaced by them.

 

[eaststorm]

Thanks for your input. We only opened the bleed valve when we introduced air into the fuel lines as a part of the trouble shooting. There was a distinct change in the electric fuel pump pitch when the air cleared out the return and when we shut the valve (which we did prior to any start). The electric fuel pump is activated any time the key is moved to "on" on the engine console. It is definitely independent of the glow plug switch. As a side note, the engine starts very easily.

The machine shop did have to remove all of the guts of the governor and fuel controls. They had to tear it down to a bare block for an acid clean and insertion of the piston sleeves. I supplied all the parts so other than gaskets, O rings, sleeves (std stuff in a major overhaul kit), and pistons nothing else was replaced by them.

 

[eaststorm]

This may be a long shot.....but investigate the following:
I had a newly installed Yanmar, all new fuel lines, etc.....I had a fuel starvation issue. As it turns out, some newer fuel lines have an interior coating that can collapse at connections/nipples. Mine at the fuel pump was folded over essentially blocking the fuel pump from pumping most of its fuel. The engine would start, but shut down under the slightest load.
This may involve any or all connections from the tank to the injectors or anywhere there is a rubber fuel line.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Thanks for your input. We only opened the bleed valve when we introduced air into the fuel lines as a part of the trouble shooting. There was a distinct change in the electric fuel pump pitch when the air cleared out the return and when we shut the valve (which we did prior to any start). The electric fuel pump is activated any time the key is moved to "on" on the engine console. It is definitely independent of the glow plug switch. As a side note, the engine starts very easily.

Good, now you know what you have. I believe this is superior to the later models which simply complicated things and made it harder to bleed the engine without engaging the glow plugs or rigging a bypass. Since the egine starts easily, and, if I understand correctly, runs great UP TO the 2800 or so rpm. Do I understand this correctly? Please confirm.

The machine shop did have to remove all of the guts of the governor and fuel controls. They had to tear it down to a bare block for an acid clean and insertion of the piston sleeves. I supplied all the parts so other than gaskets, O rings, sleeves (std stuff in a major overhaul kit), and pistons nothing else was replaced by them.

I've read this a few times, went to my boat do so some work, just cam back and am still confused. The monkeys removed all the guts of the gov and fuel controls, you supplied the parts, I don't get the "...nothing else was replaced by them." Please help me understand the nothing else part. If you reread it yourself, as if you were trying to answer the question, perhaps you'll see my confusion.

So, let's proceed. The monkeys took apart the FORWARD TOP STARBOARD pieces of your engine. If so, that'w where the engine stop lever ends up and controls the guts inside. It could well be that this is what and where your issue is. Does the stop lever work when you're throttled back normally to stop the engine?

I've asked my friend who had some experience with this, haven't heard back from him yet.

There is a 200RPM decay @ 30 seconds before the shutdown. This has been duplicated 10-12 times.

This could also be the reason some skippers have suggested fuel supply issues: higher rpms, higher fuel flow.

Interestingly we saw no fuel in the diesel return at any RPM.

This is odd. Have you tried routing the fuel return back to the jerry jug temporary supply to assure this is the case? How did you figure this part out?

Another idea is to call Joe Joyce at Westerbeke/Universal. He is a very good guy and should be very helpful.

Joe Joyce Westerbeke's Service Manager (508-823-7677 X234)

 

[Debevoise]

Good, now you know what you have. I believe this is superior to the later models which simply complicated things and made it harder to bleed the engine without engaging the glow plugs or rigging a bypass. Since the egine starts easily, and, if I understand correctly, runs great UP TO the 2800 or so rpm. Do I understand this correctly? Please confirm.

That is correct. It's shutting down at 2300RPM.

I've read this a few times, went to my boat do so some work, just cam back and am still confused. The monkeys removed all the guts of the gov and fuel controls, you supplied the parts, I don't get the "...nothing else was replaced by them." Please help me understand the nothing else part. If you reread it yourself, as if you were trying to answer the question, perhaps you'll see my confusion.

I was attempting to try to explain the work done by the machine shop as constrained to a "typical" major overhaul. No additional work was done sorry for the confusion. That said, they did remove all of the engine components down to a bare block. Including the stop lever and fuel control rigging (the forward top starboard stuff).

So, let's proceed. The monkeys took apart the FORWARD TOP STARBOARD pieces of your engine. If so, that'w where the engine stop lever ends up and controls the guts inside. It could well be that this is what and where your issue is. Does the stop lever work when you're throttled back normally to stop the engine?

Yes works properly. I spent some time looking at the parts diagram and the actual engine and they appear correct. (at least on the surface) The spring appears properly installed and the stop lever exhibits "spring" resistance when moved. I plan to watch the lever and duplicate the shutdown to see if there is any undirected movement.

I've asked my friend who had some experience with this, haven't heard back from him yet


This could also be the reason some skippers have suggested fuel supply issues: higher rpms, higher fuel flow.

This is odd. Have you tried routing the fuel return back to the jerry jug temporary supply to assure this is the case? How did you figure this part out?

We had placed a clear hose in the return line (we were looking for air in the return) and saw that it remained empty.

Another idea is to call Joe Joyce at Westerbeke/Universal. He is a very good guy and should be very helpful.
I'll give him a call.

Couple other notes:
The 2 new governor springs we installed were definitely the right part numbers. I found the OEM parts "bag" and compared it to the illustrated parts breakdown.
The engine is a M-25XP. I accidentally typed that the Catalina 30 boat was 1983 it is 1987.

Joe Joyce Westerbeke's Service Manager (508-823-7677 X234)