Universal M-18 /M-25 alternator bracket upgrade
- Thread starter Richard19068
- Start date
experience with the M-18 upgrade
Thanks everybody for the comments
I installed the upgraded bracket over the weekend.
Donnybrook is certainly right in that it looks like the bracket and the whole kit is for the M-25 with the M-18 as an afterthought. I think the only thing I used from the kit was the bracket, adjustment arm and the four studs. Neither one of the belts that came with the kit fit (both too long and one the wrong width), the coolant hose and copper elbow didn’t work, didn’t need the hose clamps, the bolts are wrong etc. Why do they make you buy all that stuff you’re not going to be able to use? My biggest beef is with the two back holes they drilled to make the bracket fit the M-18. They need to be ovals just as they provided for the M-25. Why couldn’t they just make those holes oval rather than make us grind them out so we can make the proper adjustment? Fortunately a Dremel #9901 tungsten carbide cutter bit made this not too difficult but it sure would have been easier to have it correct out of the box.
I got lucky with the studs. The existing ones were too short to double nut to back out so I thought I would have to remove the manifold to get them out. When I went to remove the nuts wouldn’t you know that the studs came right out with them. All four of them! Something I would normally be upset with turned out to be a blessing and saved a couple of hours of work and now I have an extra set of exhaust manifold gaskets I didn’t have to use.
The 3/8 pivot bolt they supply is to thin for the bracket, as reported here and in Main Sail’s write up, but the 10MM bolt I got to replace it is too fat for the alternator ear. I didn’t have the means to properly drill out the ear so I wrapped the head end of the 3/8 bolt with some metal tape to increase the thickness where it fits in the bracket hole. That seems to make a good fit on that end but I couldn’t figure out what to do about the other end so that’s still a little wobbly there. Seems to be okay though.
My setup needed one shim between the bracket and the thermostat housing and I ended up with a good alignment (after having to rout out those two holes with the Dremel).
All in all it was a PITA job but it could have been worse and I’m glad to have it done (Stu, I would have gladly provided a keg of the town mechanic’s favorite IPA to do this for me). I guess the best part is that I got really lucky and made the change before having the timing gear case break and cause some real damage. If I hadn’t been looking for that small oil leak I probably would have put this off until it was too late.
Thanks everybody for the comments
I installed the upgraded bracket over the weekend.
Donnybrook is certainly right in that it looks like the bracket and the whole kit is for the M-25 with the M-18 as an afterthought. I think the only thing I used from the kit was the bracket, adjustment arm and the four studs. Neither one of the belts that came with the kit fit (both too long and one the wrong width), the coolant hose and copper elbow didn’t work, didn’t need the hose clamps, the bolts are wrong etc. Why do they make you buy all that stuff you’re not going to be able to use? My biggest beef is with the two back holes they drilled to make the bracket fit the M-18. They need to be ovals just as they provided for the M-25. Why couldn’t they just make those holes oval rather than make us grind them out so we can make the proper adjustment? Fortunately a Dremel #9901 tungsten carbide cutter bit made this not too difficult but it sure would have been easier to have it correct out of the box.
I got lucky with the studs. The existing ones were too short to double nut to back out so I thought I would have to remove the manifold to get them out. When I went to remove the nuts wouldn’t you know that the studs came right out with them. All four of them! Something I would normally be upset with turned out to be a blessing and saved a couple of hours of work and now I have an extra set of exhaust manifold gaskets I didn’t have to use.
The 3/8 pivot bolt they supply is to thin for the bracket, as reported here and in Main Sail’s write up, but the 10MM bolt I got to replace it is too fat for the alternator ear. I didn’t have the means to properly drill out the ear so I wrapped the head end of the 3/8 bolt with some metal tape to increase the thickness where it fits in the bracket hole. That seems to make a good fit on that end but I couldn’t figure out what to do about the other end so that’s still a little wobbly there. Seems to be okay though.
My setup needed one shim between the bracket and the thermostat housing and I ended up with a good alignment (after having to rout out those two holes with the Dremel).
All in all it was a PITA job but it could have been worse and I’m glad to have it done (Stu, I would have gladly provided a keg of the town mechanic’s favorite IPA to do this for me). I guess the best part is that I got really lucky and made the change before having the timing gear case break and cause some real damage. If I hadn’t been looking for that small oil leak I probably would have put this off until it was too late.
My bracket came via UPS today.
The pivot "ear" part of my alternator appears, from the universal parts diagram, to use a 3/8" bolt like the one that comes with the bracket. I suppose this means I will have to drill my alternator to accommodate a 10mm bolt just so if fits this f-in bracket.
I really do not want to start drilling into a perfectly good alternator. And honestly, I doubt I trust any one else, even a mechanic to not F this up. There's got to be better way!
The pivot "ear" part of my alternator appears, from the universal parts diagram, to use a 3/8" bolt like the one that comes with the bracket. I suppose this means I will have to drill my alternator to accommodate a 10mm bolt just so if fits this f-in bracket.
I really do not want to start drilling into a perfectly good alternator. And honestly, I doubt I trust any one else, even a mechanic to not F this up. There's got to be better way!
It really is messed up that this kit costs almost $200 and you will throw out almost every part except the studs and the bracket itself.
And then not only does the bracket not fit the m18 properly, they couldn't even drill the hole correctly for the pivot bolt!
weinie, you're right. The ONLY saving grace is that that $200 is a great ROI compared to a $10-$15K engine replacement.
I wrote about this in 1999. It happened to me - the old bracket broke, but it didn't crack the gear case, just broke the oil filter and coolant hose. Yucky mess to clean up, too.
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=M-25_Alternator_Mount_Conversion_Kit_"B/M_256891"
I wrote about this in 1999. It happened to me - the old bracket broke, but it didn't crack the gear case, just broke the oil filter and coolant hose. Yucky mess to clean up, too.
http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=M-25_Alternator_Mount_Conversion_Kit_"B/M_256891"
:cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing:
So I started this job today.
I began at home by enlarging the holes on the bracket slightly to the left as in the above post.
At the boat, I removed the old alternator and bracket.
As expected, the 10mm x 100mm bolt I purchased would not fit the hole in the alternator.
Before I preceded to modify the alternator though, I thought I would try to loosen all the studs in the manifold to make sure they would come out okay.
Keep in mind, the catalina 27 has no access from the right side so all the work done had to be done by reaching from the front.
As I loosened and removed the studs, coolant came spurting out of the holes! I was not expecting that. Oh well, now I gotta pump and wash the bilge.:cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing:
As I place try to put the new studs in, I realize that nothing is hold the manifold on the block! Apparently, unlike on the m25 there are no fifth and sixth studs like I expected. (Keep in mind, it was difficult to see). So now the manifold had to be completely removed.:cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing:
I had to remove the exhaust and related hoses. I have new gaskets on order. I'll have to clean and scrape the area where they sit and hopefully they will get here asap so that I don't lose much sailing time!
Anyway, I inserted the new studs temporarily to test the bracket for fit. It turns out I probably did not need to enlarge the holes. One of the belts seems to fit well. It's hard to gauge since I can't look down at the belt from above, but it appears I may not need to shim the bracket out.
I did manage to find a guy in a neighboring marina to drill 10mm hole in the alternator with a drill press and vise to hold it vertical. He didn't charge me, but I gave him a twenty anyway. Guess its about the price of good six pack nowadays anyway.
So I started this job today.
I began at home by enlarging the holes on the bracket slightly to the left as in the above post.
At the boat, I removed the old alternator and bracket.
As expected, the 10mm x 100mm bolt I purchased would not fit the hole in the alternator.
Before I preceded to modify the alternator though, I thought I would try to loosen all the studs in the manifold to make sure they would come out okay.
Keep in mind, the catalina 27 has no access from the right side so all the work done had to be done by reaching from the front.
As I loosened and removed the studs, coolant came spurting out of the holes! I was not expecting that. Oh well, now I gotta pump and wash the bilge.:cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing:
As I place try to put the new studs in, I realize that nothing is hold the manifold on the block! Apparently, unlike on the m25 there are no fifth and sixth studs like I expected. (Keep in mind, it was difficult to see). So now the manifold had to be completely removed.:cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing::cussing:
I had to remove the exhaust and related hoses. I have new gaskets on order. I'll have to clean and scrape the area where they sit and hopefully they will get here asap so that I don't lose much sailing time!
Anyway, I inserted the new studs temporarily to test the bracket for fit. It turns out I probably did not need to enlarge the holes. One of the belts seems to fit well. It's hard to gauge since I can't look down at the belt from above, but it appears I may not need to shim the bracket out.
I did manage to find a guy in a neighboring marina to drill 10mm hole in the alternator with a drill press and vise to hold it vertical. He didn't charge me, but I gave him a twenty anyway. Guess its about the price of good six pack nowadays anyway.
weinie, sorry to hear about your woes. I must admit, though, that the water spurting has been written about in most of the linked topics, including Maine Sail's writeup.
I fully understand your access issues.
As far as beer, we get Sierra Nevada Pale Ale for $8.99 + tax for a six pack, $14.99 + tax for a 12 pack at our local liquor store.
Just thought you'd wanna know.
Think of it this way: you'll have a really nice setup by the time you're done. :dance:
Shimming the bracket out may not be what you meant. In my case, it was the need to shim it forward to get the belt to line up.
Universal M-25 & M25XP Alternator Bracket Upgrade & Alignment 101 IMPORTANT
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,7917.0.html
I was under the impression that you only had to drain the coolant if you intended to remove the manifold. I'm still wondering how coolant doesn't normally leak out from around the manifold studs without some sort of seal.
Anyway, I should have just removed and replaced one stud at a time. This would have left the manifold completely in place.
Also, I was talking about moving the bracket forward with the shims of course. As I said, I don't think I'll need it.
Anyway, I should have just removed and replaced one stud at a time. This would have left the manifold completely in place.
Also, I was talking about moving the bracket forward with the shims of course. As I said, I don't think I'll need it.
Hey, At least one of your belts might fit.
Sorry I didn't mention that as I removed a stud I put in a new one as I went along.
I also missed the fact that coolant would come out of a couple of the stud holes. I had previously drained it but was surprised that some excess still came out.
My alignment was close but I definitely needed to enlarge the holes to get it right. I used straight dowels placed on the crank and water pump pulleys to see where the alternator pulley needed to end up. Had to move the bracket back by about a quarter inch.
Hang in there. You'll feel better when it's over!
Sorry I didn't mention that as I removed a stud I put in a new one as I went along.
I also missed the fact that coolant would come out of a couple of the stud holes. I had previously drained it but was surprised that some excess still came out.
My alignment was close but I definitely needed to enlarge the holes to get it right. I used straight dowels placed on the crank and water pump pulleys to see where the alternator pulley needed to end up. Had to move the bracket back by about a quarter inch.
Hang in there. You'll feel better when it's over!
Thanks for the moral support guys!
Stu...I read those articles over and over and didn't see the part about coolant spurtin' out!
Did I miss something? What keeps the coolant from leaking out from around the studs anyway?
Richard...this is all your fault. You owe ME a six pack of sierra nevada! That point about removing the studs one at a time would have saved me a big headache....plus the job would have been done by now!
Stu...I read those articles over and over and didn't see the part about coolant spurtin' out!
Did I miss something? What keeps the coolant from leaking out from around the studs anyway?
Richard...this is all your fault. You owe ME a six pack of sierra nevada! That point about removing the studs one at a time would have saved me a big headache....plus the job would have been done by now!
I have no clue. Magic?
From Maine Sail's website:
Manifold Off
In this picture the manifold has been removed. You will now need to disconnect the last hose and take it off completely.
Apply to the base of each stud, where it enters the block,some PB Blaster, Kroil or another quality penetrating oil. Before someone asks, WD-40 is NOT a good quality penetrating oil....
The studs go through the mainifld?
Here's Maine Sail's details, also covered in our C34 links.
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/universal_alternator_bracket
Drain The Coolant
Yes this job is a PITA but is better than the consequences of having to replace the timing gear cover when, not if, the alternator bracket finally fails..
This is a good low spot to begin draining the coolant from the manifold and engine.
But he only mentions draining the coolant as a precursor to removing the manifold. I assumed I would be removing it and drained the coolant before finding out my studs would come out without removing the manifold. If I thought I could remove the studs without removing the manifold I would have thought I didn't need to drain the coolant. When some left over coolant came out of the lower aft stud hole I thought something must be internally wrong with the manifold. Finally decided that's just the way it is but it did cause me some concern.
Weinie, in lieu of that six pack I'd be more than happy to send you the belt(s) from my kit, they're useless to me. Let me know which one works for you and I'll put it in the mail. PM with your address if you want it .
Arrgh
Look, I didn't write Maine Sail's materials. He did. Somewhere along the way, I'd read about the stud removal causing leaks. I've been at this for 16 years, and I'm sorry if, with all the links I've provided over the years, I can't put my hands on that particular one topic.
I try to help as much as I can. When I did my friend's Ericson 32 bracket replacement in 1999, right after mine failed and I wanted him and his wife to be as safe as they could be, we took his studs out and nothing leaked! Go figure. Maybe we took out one at a time and replaced it immediately. I simply don't remember.
Sorry.
Look, MS and I are STILL warning people about wiring harnesses. We simply can't do it all.
Nice offer on the belts. Cool.
Look, I didn't write Maine Sail's materials. He did. Somewhere along the way, I'd read about the stud removal causing leaks. I've been at this for 16 years, and I'm sorry if, with all the links I've provided over the years, I can't put my hands on that particular one topic.
I try to help as much as I can. When I did my friend's Ericson 32 bracket replacement in 1999, right after mine failed and I wanted him and his wife to be as safe as they could be, we took his studs out and nothing leaked! Go figure. Maybe we took out one at a time and replaced it immediately. I simply don't remember.
Sorry.
Look, MS and I are STILL warning people about wiring harnesses. We simply can't do it all.
So many people, so little time!
I do appreciate all the comments Stu. I can't say I've done everything recommended but I have done this and have upgraded the wiring. Without the help from this site I don't think I would have had a clue how to fix the alternator bracket or that the ammeter wiring or key switch - starter wiring was a big deal .
Thanks!
Got back to the boat today.
First I spent about 30 minutes trying to get the old gasket residue off the engine block. I used the burgundy scotchbrite pad and tried acetone and brake cleaner. However, I found the only way to get the bulk of it off was to use a razor blade very gently.
I put the new bracket on and tried a test fit to get the alignment right. It was virtually impossible to sight it as I cannot view the pulleys and belts from above, only from the front in my boat. There wasn't much play any way as the bracket uses two circular holes rather than the elongated ones on the M18 engine. I did find I need a washer in the front though. I really wish I could get a better feel for the alignment as it seems like it is a critical issue.
Also used a longer hex bolt for the other alternator "ear" with a lock washer and nut on the back end as MS suggests.
Also, turns out neither of the belts shipped with kit fit. (Thanks anyway Rich!). I think I will need a belt about 1/2" or 1" shorter. Does anyone know how these things are sized? I don't under stand the numerical codes they use to indicate sizes.
First I spent about 30 minutes trying to get the old gasket residue off the engine block. I used the burgundy scotchbrite pad and tried acetone and brake cleaner. However, I found the only way to get the bulk of it off was to use a razor blade very gently.
I put the new bracket on and tried a test fit to get the alignment right. It was virtually impossible to sight it as I cannot view the pulleys and belts from above, only from the front in my boat. There wasn't much play any way as the bracket uses two circular holes rather than the elongated ones on the M18 engine. I did find I need a washer in the front though. I really wish I could get a better feel for the alignment as it seems like it is a critical issue.
Also used a longer hex bolt for the other alternator "ear" with a lock washer and nut on the back end as MS suggests.
Also, turns out neither of the belts shipped with kit fit. (Thanks anyway Rich!). I think I will need a belt about 1/2" or 1" shorter. Does anyone know how these things are sized? I don't under stand the numerical codes they use to indicate sizes.
Get a length of 3/8 drill rod and set it into the pulley grooves you want to align. It'll show alignment issues real quick. About $5 at hardware store.
weinie,
Forget what's written on the belts. Maybe something like 110AV0347...
Figure out the width, usually 3/8" and then deal with the length, which is 7300, 7320, 7350, 7340, 7395, 7400, etc.
It is immaterial just what these numbers actually MEAN
but once you've found the right length, based on YOUR boat and alternator, save the info and buy TWO. Napa sells Gates belts.
They're good. Very.
Alternator Belt Tensioning Tool http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,3667.0.html
Well....job is done.
I have about 37 extra belts. Turned out I uses a gates xl 7385.
Also...didn't have exhaust pipe tightened good so. ...more AF in bilge....aarrgghhh.
Used a 3/8 inch rod to test alignment as above. At least that was spot on.
I have about 37 extra belts. Turned out I uses a gates xl 7385.
Also...didn't have exhaust pipe tightened good so. ...more AF in bilge....aarrgghhh.
Used a 3/8 inch rod to test alignment as above. At least that was spot on.