Universal 5411

[lpbosch]

What is your opinion on the Universal 5411? I purchased a C30 with the Universal 5411 out of the boat. The PO said he wasn't sure what was wrong with it and he bought it with the engine out. I brought it to a reputable diesel machanic. He spent 7 hours on it and got me list of parts that need to be replaced. However, before I have bought the first part for the engine I am already being billed $645.00 The list of items that need to be replaced are:

THERMOSTAT
STARTER
IMPELLER
ALTENATOR
ALT. BELT
FUEL FILTER
OIL FILTER
OIL DIP STICK TUBE
OIL TUBE GASKET
WATER PUMP (Oberdorfer)
WATER PUMP KIT
MOTOR MOUNTS

I know that most of these parts can be expensive. Especially OEM parts. However, I have read on one of the forums that the 5411 was built by Kubota. Does anyone have a spreadsheet with the Kubota and Universal part numbers? Is it even worth my trying to get it rebuilt or should I just sell and save for a newer engine?

 

[woodster]

find out the part numbers of those parts you need and then do google searches for them and be patient sometimes you can find deals on all sorts of sites and if you can get a cross reference for kubota tractor engine that matches you will save a bundle ifound a starter and alt for mt yanmar for a total of 120.00 dollars by just sitting back and watching ...the deals are out there just go slow ...some times you can find a whole engine on the net like you have as a parts engine and that would be very helpful to you but shop wisely

 

[Anonymous 121765]

LP,

My C30 had the 5411. It was a little work horse but if having to traverse currents & rough conditions, it is grossly underpowered for your size & weight boat. If not having these problems the 5411 is adequate.

I do not know how old the engine is so I can't speak for this. What I do know is that the engine is old. They stopped making these years ago. Is it worth the money, I can't say. If you fix this or re-power, it will cost some $$.

With my 1980 model the thinking back then was 2HP per ton which is too weak. Take the loss of HP from your engine coupling flange & move 4-5 feet down the shaft to your propeller & it drops significantly. At max RPM your only running about maybe 5-6 HP @ prop. The 5411 is an 11HP rated engine.

Just some things to think about. I did upgrade to the 3M20A universal with just some modifications for the motor mounts. If you go this route, I have sketches of the transitional pieces I had made to install it. The footprint is close to what the 5411 is.

CR

 

[lpbosch]

Thank you CR. Can you send me the drawings of the 3M20A? I think that is the route I need to take.

 

[Skipper]

That's not a rebuild.
Those are standard parts to be replaced on old Universal motors.
I'm suspicious about replacing the alt and starter. Ask him for details. Old universal wiring to the panel is notorious for intermittent solenoid problems. Also you might just have a diode or regulator out on the alt.
the dipstick tube rusts from the seawater ejected by the crappy original Sherwood pumps, hence the need for a new Oberdorfer, which is drastically better.
By the way these are all parts you can install youself. Just nuts and bolts and gaskets. Motor mounts might be the only tricky install - look at postings here and a Universal service manual (avail free google) for direction.

 

[lpbosch]

Thanks Skipper. That is the plan as of now. To pickup the motor and do the rest of the Maint. Myself. If this were my forever boat I would replace it with a larger engine.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Does anyone have a spreadsheet with the Kubota and Universal part numbers?

skipper's right, standard maintenance issues.

While the information in the link below is for M25 series engines, many of the issues are similar if not identical.

http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Diesel_Engine

As far as the spreadsheet, do a Google search on 5411 equivalents and similar terms, the information is out there. You just need to find the Kubota tractor engine number. Many of us have shopped at tractor stores for thermostats and other parts with great success.

 

[Anonymous 121765]

LP,

Skipper & Stu added useful info for ponder. Really what it comes down to is, how much do you believe what the first mechanic says. Is he recommendable or, should you talk to others. I, would look at options.

I did say that the 5411 is a workhorse. It is a dependable engine but, if having these questions, check with others also.

CR

 

[lpbosch]

I have read everywhere that the 5411 is a workhorse. I know the engine has sat up for some time and the mechanic was able to get it started, however it appeared that there was some corrosion being flushed out. See the picture below to see what the Thermostat looks like.

 

[Jack - La Paz Mx]

Starter and alternator can be checked and rebuilt by any automotive starter shop much cheaper. My 5411 has taken our Cat 30 from CA down the coast to Baja, Mexico and all over the Sea of Cortez. It has been in Mexico for 16 years. The engine is very reliable and uses very little diesel. One must be prudent in challenges of current and wind, but that should be the case anyway. I can see the benefits of a larger engine, but have not yet been motivated as the 5411 is doing fine.

 

[lpbosch]

For the Alternator isn't it a 55 Amp? Wouldn't any automotive parts place carry one?

 

[ArkadiyS]

I have Universal M25, and when I was looking for a complete parts list, I found full PDFs on-line, down to every screw and washer. Check out this site - www.catalina30.com/TechLib/Engines/M5411/M5411_PARTS.pdf. Also, if this is your forever (or for a long while) boat, I recommend a repower. If you look at reviews in journals and on-line forums, 5411 is one of the most common replacements. We are VERY happy with the 21HP M25, the boat handles great, and is very responsive in-gear. If you decide to stay with 5411, most of the parts that you are talking about are part of regular annual maintenance. Oberdorfer water pump is a no-brainer, just do it. as for Alternator and Starter, I would ask for mechanic's reasons, other than, "they are old". Good luck!

 

[jrowan]

LP, I also have the 5411 on a 1980 C-30, like Capt. Ron's year. It is indeed a workhorse of an engine & very reliable. As stated it also is very fuel efficient. It is well known to be underpowered in stiff chop, but will push the boat to 6 knots in calm water. If the block & compression at the 2 cylinders is good it is indeed worth fixing. But if the motor is already out of the boat, that's when you have to think hard about repowering. Half the work is in pulling out the old engine. If I had that opportunity I would think hard about repowering with a new Beta Engine, which also uses a Kobuta engine block. The increased power of ANY new engine is worth it, & will improve the value & pleasure of sailing your boat & make it capable of dealing with adverse weather conditions. While I love my lil' 5411, it just cannot handle big waves or bad weather. You can try to plan your sails, but bad weather will crop out sooner or later when out there. Having the confidence of a bigger engine makes sailing the C-30 a much more well rounded boat. If you do want to fix your 5411 then I agree with other posts about getting your existing starter & alternator rebuilt, as you know they work with your existing engine, & will save $$. Do not listen to the earlier post about using a car alternator to save $. Auto alternators are not electrically sealed like a marine alternator & cause sparks that can cause fires. Good luck on your engine woes. Attached are manuals for the 5411 engine. Hope this helps.

 

[Stu Jackson]

You can also find this information at www.marinedieseldirect.com, a bookmark for anyone with a Universal engine. Their parts prices are crazy high, though, so use it as a resource and find the equivalent Kubota block and parts as earlier suggested.

I have Universal M25, and when I was looking for a complete parts list, I found full PDFs on-line, down to every screw and washer. Check out this site - www.catalina30.com/TechLib/Engines/M5411/M5411_PARTS.pdf.

 

[ArkadiyS]

While discussing Kubota engine and parts, I was wondering if it just not worth trying non-marine parts? I have seen lower prices for basic engine parts that are not for marine use, and always thought that for a few $s is savings, the risk was just not worth it. Am I being too cautious?

 

[lpbosch]

AR, I was thinking the same thing. Why not at least try (but but one extra in case it breaks down when you are out on the water).

 

[lillia28]

I've been researching the 5411 because I am looking at some O'days that used it. as far as I can tell it was only used for 1 or 2 years, the 5411 and M 12 are very similar. The engine is based in the Kubota Z500 engine and used in the B5100 tractor. The biggest issues I've found are exhaust manifold and mixing elbow are expensive, $550.00 for the manifold, $190 for the elbow. The 140 degree thermostat for a raw water cooled engine $150.00 or so. The tractor 180 degree is about $30.00. TOAD can only ship Universal parts to certain states, of which NJ is not one. The tractors are fresh water cooled, so the exhaust parts are marine only, and thus not in great demand, and thus expensive.
I am not sure what I'm going to do. A secure parts supply would make me feel a lot better. then again, how often do you change an exhaust manifold?
L

 

[Jack - La Paz Mx]

My Catalina is a 1983 and we have replaced the mixing elbow twice (raw water cooled). Never the manifold. I made the mixing elbow totally from plumbing parts using black pipe. Cost was under $30. The boat lives in the water year round, bottom paint every 5 years. Little 5411 runs like a champ and uses little fuel.

 

[njlarry]

With the exception of the alt, starter and water pump, the rest is all annual maintainece stuff. If you really do need to replace them you will only need to do it once.

 

[Jwhy]

http://www.transpacificdist.com/universal_home.html

Check this website to download manual and parts list for your engine. They are helpful over the phone and by email too.