Universal 25XP Intermittent Start Problem

[KennyBene]

New (to me) Catalina 30 MkII with M25XP. Engine starts fine when cold but if warm, sometimes it turns over slowly, as if the batteries are dead (they are brand new) or no crank at all. Fuel pump is clicking.
I am able to run a jumper cable from the battery direct to the starter and she starts right up.
I have cleaned all connections and replaced the starter batt cable to new, larger wire.
Seems to be something electrical between the battery and the starter but what?
Any suggestions will be much appreciated.
Ken

 

[FastOlson]

Try some searching here on your engine model. It may not have had the wiring update done yet.
Stu will doubtless be checking in with some very helpful links on the Catalina site as well.

 

[anchorclanker]

I wonder if your starter solenoid is failing. When you use a jumper, are you jumping to the main starter terminal, or the small trigger wire?

 

[onecoolair]

New (to me) Catalina 30 MkII with M25XP. Engine starts fine when cold but if warm, sometimes it turns over slowly, as if the batteries are dead (they are brand new) or no crank at all. Fuel pump is clicking.
I am able to run a jumper cable from the battery direct to the starter and she starts right up.
I have cleaned all connections and replaced the starter batt cable to new, larger wire.
Seems to be something electrical between the battery and the starter but what?
Any suggestions will be much appreciated.
Ken

Since you seem to have covered these other bases battery cables etc.... I know because that is almost exactly what I did and still had issues.
The final fix was to remove starter and check the starter selonoid. Note...I am assuming you have that defective yanmar harness. Sometimes if the momentary start (usaully white) wire in the yanmar wiring harness from cockpit engine intrument panel is not putting out a proper amp load. Even though it would check out a good 12.5 to 13 volts. When it would get loaded up it was different story.
This could cause excessive heating on the selonoid,or starter motor causing premature failure. In my case selonoid checked out but caused the stator in the starter motor to over heat and to burn up. After replacing starter. I Cured the problem by running a new #10 gauge white momentary wire along wiring harness from instrument starter switch to starter selonoid. Left the old wire still connected. Now she kicks over with the slightist flip of the key. Also replaced the gone bad over priced factory yanmar on /off key with a automotive style/powerboat solid brass off/on/start key so now I do not have to contort my fingure or thumb up into and around that plastic weather shield that covers panel to push that damn button. Still have the option of pushing button though left it connected. Also squirted some Dielectric Grease up into key hole just for good measure..FYI...about 20 bucks for new key from the local O'reilly auto parts.

 

[KennyBene]

anchorclanker- I am connecting the jumper cable directly to the starter terminal

onecoolair- the boat is a 1990 and I have very limited history on it (bought from a boatyard after they exercised their mechanics lien). How can I tell if I have the Yanmar harness? The boat does have numerous electrical gremlins that I need to sort out but the solenoid is a good bet as well.

 

[FastOlson]

anchorclanker- I am connecting the jumper cable directly to the starter terminal

onecoolair- the boat is a 1990 and I have very limited history on it (bought from a boatyard after they exercised their mechanics lien). How can I tell if I have the Yanmar harness? The boat does have numerous electrical gremlins that I need to sort out but the solenoid is a good bet as well.

There may indeed be a connectivity problem with the old wiring harness, and as the OP indicated, it's a Universal diesel, not a Yanmar.

Over the last decade, I have had to trouble shoot some voltage drops in our same-model diesel due to resistance building up in the harness plug. I have also had the starter rebuilt which included a new solinoid.

If you do not have the Service manual and the separate Parts manual, I would suggest obtaining those.

 

[jviss]

Harness plug

I don't know if your boat has it, but mine, a 1984 Catalina 36 with a Universal M25, had a harness plug that was a kind of low production volume molded connector pair - a vinyl-like thermosetting compound encapsulating mating pin and socket connectors crimped onto the wires that ran from the engine assembly to the panel. This included all of the charging current up to an ammeter on the engine panel. While mine hadn't failed catastrophically, it was on the verge; it had partially melted and burnt, due to high resistance in the charging current connection.

I replaced it with a marine grade terminal block, and made the following changes, which I highly recommend:

1. eliminated the ammeter from the panel, and run the alternator output directly to the battery;
2. installed a glow plug solenoid right at the engine, so the glow plug current didn't run up to the panel and back; used the existing wire to energize the solenoid.

Just cut the wires and crimp ring or spade terminals to connect to the terminal block.

However, that may not be your problem. I suspect you have a too-small wire from the battery to the starter, or maybe (?) the starter current has to pass through the panel too.

jv

 

[onecoolair]

anchorclanker- I am connecting the jumper cable directly to the starter terminal

onecoolair- the boat is a 1990 and I have very limited history on it (bought from a boatyard after they exercised their mechanics lien). How can I tell if I have the Yanmar harness? The boat does have numerous electrical gremlins that I need to sort out but the solenoid is a good bet as well.

Thats why I tried to be clear I was dealing with a yanmar harness. I have had numerous friends with the same issuies. If you can find out if your boat when new came originally with a yanmar then you may still have the same harness on your boat. But regardless if it is a yanmar harness or not, pull the starter so that it can be fully checked out. Was not that hard for me to remove on my yanmar. My local Auto Zone here can test and inspect things like starters and alternators.
Next do the same that I did with my harness follow it all the way from starter to panel looking for hidden connections allong the way plus cripped or damaged wiring. I found hidden unnessassary connections in my harness. Carefully pull the harness out if you need to, so as to be able check it out really good.
A friend of mine has a older ericson 39' and he was having the same problem. He pulled the harness out. Made sure he marked the panel,starter and alt.wiring locations. Take good pictures. Then it was easy from there. He took it home and built a completly new harness. Just copied the old harness using new marine grade properly sized wires keeping the same color coding system.
If you think its best, up size some of the wiring to one gauge or higher if needed. Keep in mind the main wires that will need to be able to handle a good amp load. Do not forget the ground wire it may need up sizing to. Making sure that there will be no buried hidden unessassary connections by having one long continuios run from panel to starter. Make sure to cover the entire new harness in a protective sleave.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Jviss is right with his suggestions. Many of them come from here: C34 Critical Upgrades, applicable to C30s, and C36s, too. Try this: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5078.0.html 3 pages

Intermittent starting: you only checked one of two wires - check your engine ground. There's also a fuse in a holder cleverly hidden underneath your alternator.

Some of this might help, too, scroll down to engines: http://www.c34.org/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

 

[KennyBene]

Thanks for all the advice- I'm going to start by changing the cables from the batts to the switch (cheap and easy) and if that doesn't do it, I'll do the starter solenoid next. If that doesn't work, I'll be back for next steps- I'm pretty sure this is the original engine so the Yanmar harness is not the problem.

 

[Stu Jackson]

1. Your boat does NOT have a Yanmar harness. You do have a harness and the link explains why it's a BIG problem if you PO didn't fix it, and we can't know what you do have. It's the connectors.

2. Please read the links I gave you. Changing the wiring from the batteries to the switch is NOT (99-44/100th% sure) NOT your problem. Please, please, please check the ground and the fuseholder first before you waste any time and $$ on what you say you're going to do first.

Your boat, your choice, of course, but you asked and we answered, and we really do have "some" experience.

Good luck,

Stu

 

[dparilla]

Stu is right on the mark. Take the time to work the panel to engine and don't forget about the neutral wire. It took me nearly a year of cursing (and a new starter) before I found his advice on the Catalina page. Our slow start came down to a bad connection in the harness "trailer" plug that had corroded and was on the point of failure, !AND! a bad neutral connection on the engine itself. I now avoid "case grounding" whenever possible and run neutral wires to a common bus, and one line to the engine block. Cheap and (relatively) easy fix.

 

[KennyBene]

Gentlemen (especially Stu and jviss)- my problem disappeared just after my last post so I didn't follow up on your advice until the issue reappeared during winter layup. After reading all the links and backup material, I discovered that I do have the bad harness and will do the repair ASAP.
Is it best to use a terminal bar like Cat Direct sells or is it acceptable to butt connect the wires after cleaning? The ALT to Starter cable and the glow plug solenoid sound like smart moves as well.
Thanks for the excellent advice!

 

[Stu Jackson]

kt, if you read the 3 pages of Critical Upgrades, the answer to your question is, IIRC, on the last page: your choice of direct connections or using a terminal strip or the Euro connector.

Good luck.