But municipalities will be not be punished for letting sewage overflows occur.*box Bush administration is shifting policy so cities and towns can skip a required treatment procedure for sewage they pump into rivers, lakes and coastal waters during high rains. The administration's plan would let hundreds of communities big and small escape that expense by partially treating sewage surges in big storms. But god help the poor sailor that wants to install an environmentally efficient device like an electrasan and use it in all of Rhode Island or other Coastal NDZ locations http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-11-02-sewer-rules-usat_x.htm
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Whoa....
The proposed new EPA regs would only set a national standard for the level of treatment required during periods of heavy rain that now result in overflows of totally UNtreated sewage in some places (like RI, where a major spill exactly one week after "no discharge" went into effect closed all the beaches and shellfishing for a week). Some places are already doing what the new regs would require...others aren't--they're just releasing releasing untreated waste. Perhaps you're not aware that over 100 New England cities and towns currently have exemptions from the EPA from meeting any sewage treatment standards because their systems are too antiquated, too small, or in such bad shape that they can't meet existing standards. Most places--those that have newer systems that are adequate to handle heavy runoff--won't even be affected. But, as usual, the enviro-nazis have their knickers in a twist over it...and have apparently done a fine job of twisting yours too. Their arguments against it are as bogus as their arguments against onboard treatment.
The proposed new EPA regs would only set a national standard for the level of treatment required during periods of heavy rain that now result in overflows of totally UNtreated sewage in some places (like RI, where a major spill exactly one week after "no discharge" went into effect closed all the beaches and shellfishing for a week). Some places are already doing what the new regs would require...others aren't--they're just releasing releasing untreated waste. Perhaps you're not aware that over 100 New England cities and towns currently have exemptions from the EPA from meeting any sewage treatment standards because their systems are too antiquated, too small, or in such bad shape that they can't meet existing standards. Most places--those that have newer systems that are adequate to handle heavy runoff--won't even be affected. But, as usual, the enviro-nazis have their knickers in a twist over it...and have apparently done a fine job of twisting yours too. Their arguments against it are as bogus as their arguments against onboard treatment.
Whoa Whoa
I guess some people do not realize that there are one heck of a lot more people out there than there used to be. Fifty years ago one turd in a bay didn’t effect anything but 50,000 in the same bay is a different story. Does anyone out there not think that more people are using (and pooping in) the water today than there used to be? My hats off to the state of Maine for the work they have done. Their efforts have opened old shell flats that had been closed for years because of too much pollution ( human sewage). This happened because of a program they had where they physically went along the coast and identified strait pipe discharges into the water and stopped it. (Those people were called enviro-nazis too.) It’s obvious to me that when more people use a given resource the more careful that resource must be taken care of. Think about it. Some ideas work better than others but hey, its been like that sense the beginning of time. The important thing is that we move in the right direction. The good ideas will stay, the bad ones won’t and some people will gripe no mater what.
I guess some people do not realize that there are one heck of a lot more people out there than there used to be. Fifty years ago one turd in a bay didn’t effect anything but 50,000 in the same bay is a different story. Does anyone out there not think that more people are using (and pooping in) the water today than there used to be? My hats off to the state of Maine for the work they have done. Their efforts have opened old shell flats that had been closed for years because of too much pollution ( human sewage). This happened because of a program they had where they physically went along the coast and identified strait pipe discharges into the water and stopped it. (Those people were called enviro-nazis too.) It’s obvious to me that when more people use a given resource the more careful that resource must be taken care of. Think about it. Some ideas work better than others but hey, its been like that sense the beginning of time. The important thing is that we move in the right direction. The good ideas will stay, the bad ones won’t and some people will gripe no mater what.
That's the point of my argument
"over 100 New England cities currently have exemptions from EPA to meet any sewage treatment standards" There are a lot more poop coming from the towns and cities than from boaters. But god help the boater that has a Type 1 system on their boat. I would argue that the amount released (even if it is diluted) from these municipalities in one overflow would dwarf what we boaters could let out if would all use electrasans
"over 100 New England cities currently have exemptions from EPA to meet any sewage treatment standards" There are a lot more poop coming from the towns and cities than from boaters. But god help the boater that has a Type 1 system on their boat. I would argue that the amount released (even if it is diluted) from these municipalities in one overflow would dwarf what we boaters could let out if would all use electrasans
You have the enviro-nazis, not the EPA to thank
Were it not for them, the Lectra/San would be legal in all coastal waters now. It's been more than 5 years since Rep. Jim Saxton (R-NJ) first introduced a Bill that would reduce the the allowable bacteria count from Type I and II MSDs from the current level of <1,000/100 mililiter to <10...and allow the use of all Type I and II MSDs that meet that new standard (the Lectra/San does) in all coastal waters, including those designated "no discharge"...and he's reintroduced it every year since (this year's version is HR 1027...you can read it at http://www.theorator.com/bills108/hr1027.html)...but the environmental lobby has kept it bottled up in committee. Thanks to their efforts, it's doubtful that it will ever reach the floor for a vote.
Were it not for them, the Lectra/San would be legal in all coastal waters now. It's been more than 5 years since Rep. Jim Saxton (R-NJ) first introduced a Bill that would reduce the the allowable bacteria count from Type I and II MSDs from the current level of <1,000/100 mililiter to <10...and allow the use of all Type I and II MSDs that meet that new standard (the Lectra/San does) in all coastal waters, including those designated "no discharge"...and he's reintroduced it every year since (this year's version is HR 1027...you can read it at http://www.theorator.com/bills108/hr1027.html)...but the environmental lobby has kept it bottled up in committee. Thanks to their efforts, it's doubtful that it will ever reach the floor for a vote.
Got to laugh...
Got to laugh at the conversation... this is one that we had at the local Power Squadron last week, discussing this issue. It seems that the environmentalists are after the boaters (a small voice) and breaking everyone's buns over a relatively small amount of pollution in Puget Sound. YES there ARE lots of boats... But, now compare that to the MILLIONS OF GALLONS per day of TOTALLY UNTREATED sewage pouring out of the coast of Canada, Victoria and Vancouver. How come no one says ANYTHING about that???? But now, I have to worry whether my type I MSD device is working correctly on my little Coronado 25. Steve
Got to laugh at the conversation... this is one that we had at the local Power Squadron last week, discussing this issue. It seems that the environmentalists are after the boaters (a small voice) and breaking everyone's buns over a relatively small amount of pollution in Puget Sound. YES there ARE lots of boats... But, now compare that to the MILLIONS OF GALLONS per day of TOTALLY UNTREATED sewage pouring out of the coast of Canada, Victoria and Vancouver. How come no one says ANYTHING about that???? But now, I have to worry whether my type I MSD device is working correctly on my little Coronado 25. Steve
Don't Laugh Too Fast Steve
I think if you do some serious research into your comments you will find that you are incorrect. The Canadian rules are far more restrictive that those in the state of Washington. Yes - the discharge of waste from municipalities is controlled more north of the border. This statement also includes discharge of air pollution.
I think if you do some serious research into your comments you will find that you are incorrect. The Canadian rules are far more restrictive that those in the state of Washington. Yes - the discharge of waste from municipalities is controlled more north of the border. This statement also includes discharge of air pollution.
Jim... Please read
Below is a description of what is going on north of our border. Click on the "Related Link", below. And a few more: http://www.vancourier.com/113201/news/113201nn3.html http://www.e-b-i.net/ebi/index.cfm?DSP=content&ContentID=6107 They say that this problem will not be cured for another thirty years! Lots of other reports... check out a Yahoo search on "Raw Sewage... Vancouver". Steve
Below is a description of what is going on north of our border. Click on the "Related Link", below. And a few more: http://www.vancourier.com/113201/news/113201nn3.html http://www.e-b-i.net/ebi/index.cfm?DSP=content&ContentID=6107 They say that this problem will not be cured for another thirty years! Lots of other reports... check out a Yahoo search on "Raw Sewage... Vancouver". Steve
Holy Sh-t Steve - unbelievable
We lived in Vancouver 30 years ago (before moving east) and were not aware that they had let things slip that badly. My apologies sir. Thank goodness we in the east (both sides of the border) have made great strides in cleaning up the Great Lakes. We can now see the bottom up to about 25 feet. Amazing!!!
We lived in Vancouver 30 years ago (before moving east) and were not aware that they had let things slip that badly. My apologies sir. Thank goodness we in the east (both sides of the border) have made great strides in cleaning up the Great Lakes. We can now see the bottom up to about 25 feet. Amazing!!!
While researching Vancouver sewage, also do
A little research into sewage treatment and the benefits of tidal cleansing. Environmental extremists count on knee-jerk emotional reactions to half--and even less than half--truths.
A little research into sewage treatment and the benefits of tidal cleansing. Environmental extremists count on knee-jerk emotional reactions to half--and even less than half--truths.
A Clean Environment is Good For People
The Clean Air, Clean Water, and Solid Waste laws were enacted to protect people - not animals. The clean air laws help protect people from asthma, cancer, and other dieseases. Clean water laws were to stop dumping of sewage and other pollutants into streams or soils so downstream (stream or groundwater) people wouldn't get their water contaminated. Solid waste laws were to prevent dumping all over the landscape, burning in trash barrels (stink), and to reduce disease vectors. These are just three examples. So, bottom line, many if not most environmental laws were to protect HUMAN health. Who wants to move to an area that's contaminated or has poor air quality? The quality of the environment is high on many peoples list of criteria of what they want in where they want to live. The greater the discharge the higher the waste/exhaust standards have to be. And an increase in population tends to increase the discharge. Dilution is not the solution.
The Clean Air, Clean Water, and Solid Waste laws were enacted to protect people - not animals. The clean air laws help protect people from asthma, cancer, and other dieseases. Clean water laws were to stop dumping of sewage and other pollutants into streams or soils so downstream (stream or groundwater) people wouldn't get their water contaminated. Solid waste laws were to prevent dumping all over the landscape, burning in trash barrels (stink), and to reduce disease vectors. These are just three examples. So, bottom line, many if not most environmental laws were to protect HUMAN health. Who wants to move to an area that's contaminated or has poor air quality? The quality of the environment is high on many peoples list of criteria of what they want in where they want to live. The greater the discharge the higher the waste/exhaust standards have to be. And an increase in population tends to increase the discharge. Dilution is not the solution.
John you hit the nail on the head
Sounds to me like everyone wants to point a finger at the other guy and say, “ Why should I have to if they don’t have to”. We’re all in this together, if we wait for the “other guy” to clean up his act before we clean up ours guess what, its going to be a long wait. There are extremists on both sides of this issue. What’s new about that? The Androscoggin River in Maine is rated a fishable and swimable under the clean water act down to just above Lewiston, Maine. It has four paper mills that discharge into it above this point. Of them as of about a year ago Mead and International Paper did not have a license under the clean water act to discharge. The Clean Water Act states that if you do not have a discharge license then all dumping must stop. A discharge license is good for five years. These mills haven’t had a permit for over six years!!! Why have these mills not been made to stop? Because they are a lot more powerful than you or me. I know a person that grew up ½ mile from the I.P. she is about 45 now. She drew up a two-page list of all her relatives that also lived within 15 miles of that mill. In that two page list there were two relatives that had nothing wrong with them. The rest had problems ranging from crones disease, breast cancer, hysterectomies, tumors, you name it. A week after she gave me the list she found out that her sisters 19 year old son was just diagnosed with a cancerous tumor behind his eyes. She said that his parents tried to keep him off the river but he still went because he loved fishing on the river. Yes some of the fish have tumors too. Buy the way clams are filter feeders that filter waste out of the water. Think about "that" the next time you order up a plate of fried clams. Anyway I guess I should be bitching because my little bit of waste is just a drop in the bucket compared to theirs, right?
Sounds to me like everyone wants to point a finger at the other guy and say, “ Why should I have to if they don’t have to”. We’re all in this together, if we wait for the “other guy” to clean up his act before we clean up ours guess what, its going to be a long wait. There are extremists on both sides of this issue. What’s new about that? The Androscoggin River in Maine is rated a fishable and swimable under the clean water act down to just above Lewiston, Maine. It has four paper mills that discharge into it above this point. Of them as of about a year ago Mead and International Paper did not have a license under the clean water act to discharge. The Clean Water Act states that if you do not have a discharge license then all dumping must stop. A discharge license is good for five years. These mills haven’t had a permit for over six years!!! Why have these mills not been made to stop? Because they are a lot more powerful than you or me. I know a person that grew up ½ mile from the I.P. she is about 45 now. She drew up a two-page list of all her relatives that also lived within 15 miles of that mill. In that two page list there were two relatives that had nothing wrong with them. The rest had problems ranging from crones disease, breast cancer, hysterectomies, tumors, you name it. A week after she gave me the list she found out that her sisters 19 year old son was just diagnosed with a cancerous tumor behind his eyes. She said that his parents tried to keep him off the river but he still went because he loved fishing on the river. Yes some of the fish have tumors too. Buy the way clams are filter feeders that filter waste out of the water. Think about "that" the next time you order up a plate of fried clams. Anyway I guess I should be bitching because my little bit of waste is just a drop in the bucket compared to theirs, right?
Please don't misunderstand
Nobody wants to see the rivers and bays polluted. I want to see some sensible laws that maintain a clean environment just as much as anyone else. But WHO, exactly are the KEY polluters? Boaters? We can be restricted all day till the NEXT century, but so long as LARGE municipalities (i.e. Canadian, for instance) pour BILLIONS of litres of RAW SEWAGE into Puget Sound and the Straits of Georgia and industrial waste is not curtailed (paper mills, etc.), who are we kidding? You see, the boaters, who are not a large political group, and do not, as a group contribute to election campaigns, are easy pickings... but is the NDZ restrictions really doing anyone any good? While others are allowed to dump freely? I just LOVE hypocrites! Ok, NOW I can get off my soap box.... Steve
Nobody wants to see the rivers and bays polluted. I want to see some sensible laws that maintain a clean environment just as much as anyone else. But WHO, exactly are the KEY polluters? Boaters? We can be restricted all day till the NEXT century, but so long as LARGE municipalities (i.e. Canadian, for instance) pour BILLIONS of litres of RAW SEWAGE into Puget Sound and the Straits of Georgia and industrial waste is not curtailed (paper mills, etc.), who are we kidding? You see, the boaters, who are not a large political group, and do not, as a group contribute to election campaigns, are easy pickings... but is the NDZ restrictions really doing anyone any good? While others are allowed to dump freely? I just LOVE hypocrites! Ok, NOW I can get off my soap box.... Steve
All That's Green isn't Necessarily Clean
Richard Marble - that's really sad to hear the story about your friends family. The sorry part is that a lay person, perhaps with some life science background, can hear what you said and see the connection but actually proving it, unfortunately, it something else again. Some people don't realize the health damage that chemicals can do, even in small dosages. Unfortunately, proving what caused the problem can be like trying to prove that smoking can cause cancer. I'm surprised that the mills can get away with their dumping but their lawyers probably read the law really well, in their favor, but just let the Coast Guard find out that you dumped a few gallons of your holding tank overboard and see what hapens! Locally our county has had real problems with accidential dumping from broken sewer mains and failed lift stations where thousands of gallons of untreated sewage is spilled and they can't seem to get their act together and stop it. It's always an "accident". I did a search of the articles in the local Bremerton "Sun", ["sewage spill"] see link, and there are numerous articles about sewage spills in our county. Just one of these spills has dumped more sewage than probably all the private boats in this area has generated in a decade. But, we keep "developing" with more houses. I guess all that's green isn't necessarily green. Attached is a picture taken a week ago just shortly after a spill a couple months earlier. The resultant "red tide" lasted until just before the picture was taken. http://www.google.com/custom?q=sewage+spill&sa=Go&cof=LW%3A600%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesunlink.com%2Fart%2Fhead.gif%3BLH%3A92%3BAH%3Acenter%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesunlink.com%3BAWFID%3A94723d34c22be2ac%3B&domains=thesunlink.com&sitesearch=thesunlink.com
Richard Marble - that's really sad to hear the story about your friends family. The sorry part is that a lay person, perhaps with some life science background, can hear what you said and see the connection but actually proving it, unfortunately, it something else again. Some people don't realize the health damage that chemicals can do, even in small dosages. Unfortunately, proving what caused the problem can be like trying to prove that smoking can cause cancer. I'm surprised that the mills can get away with their dumping but their lawyers probably read the law really well, in their favor, but just let the Coast Guard find out that you dumped a few gallons of your holding tank overboard and see what hapens! Locally our county has had real problems with accidential dumping from broken sewer mains and failed lift stations where thousands of gallons of untreated sewage is spilled and they can't seem to get their act together and stop it. It's always an "accident". I did a search of the articles in the local Bremerton "Sun", ["sewage spill"] see link, and there are numerous articles about sewage spills in our county. Just one of these spills has dumped more sewage than probably all the private boats in this area has generated in a decade. But, we keep "developing" with more houses. I guess all that's green isn't necessarily green. Attached is a picture taken a week ago just shortly after a spill a couple months earlier. The resultant "red tide" lasted until just before the picture was taken. http://www.google.com/custom?q=sewage+spill&sa=Go&cof=LW%3A600%3BL%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesunlink.com%2Fart%2Fhead.gif%3BLH%3A92%3BAH%3Acenter%3BS%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesunlink.com%3BAWFID%3A94723d34c22be2ac%3B&domains=thesunlink.com&sitesearch=thesunlink.com
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