Twings and rigging for the Symmetrical spinnaker.

[shnool]

I am trying to iron out some things on my Capri 25, and I know that the Capri 22 is very similar in the foredeck configuration for the symmetrical kite... so I would like to pick your collective brains on how my configuration is setup.

First I have read that, having a separate sheet and guy per side on a 25 footer is likely overkill, so I've worked under the assumption that was unnecessary.
Second, with 1 line acting as sheet (for the leeward side) and 1 as guy (to the pole on windward side), it forces the roles to be reversed upon jibe....

With those two things in mind I want to describe what I did, and why I know it's wrong, but am looking to "fix" it.
I've run my sheet/guy from forward down to fixed ratchet blocks on the rail at the widest part of the boat (just behind the bulkhead for the dog house)... then to turning blocks all the way astern... I know instead of the ratchet blocks, I should likely use snatch blocks on the sheet/guy, and down to a block on the rail (could be the ratchet block that'd be fine) to TWING the line when it's acting as a guy... and manage it when it's acting as a sheet (to open or close the leech)...

Am I on TRACK so far?
I am using THIS as my guide to rigging:

What above refers to is D and E in the image. My wrong configuration has D and E being fixed to my rail as a single block, and the guy run through it... bad juju, it closes the spinnaker down on the sheet side (it works, but it closes it). What I proposed to the foredeck was a way to change out what I am using to a kind of twing, but I think I need F a cleat (the ratchet blocks might help me delay that now, but one of the genoa trimmers is trimming doing trim for the spinnaker while we run, so he's pretty busy, the other genoa trimmer could be in charge of adjusting the twings I guess and we could forego the cleats for now).

Ok assuming you understand my question on that, I'll also note that my foreguy (pole downhaul), IS NOT directly under the bridle on the spinnaker pole like B in that picture. It's instead at the base of the mast... it seems that it's easier to adjust sheeting that way when the pole can rotate around the mast. Not sure if that factors into anything but I thought I'd mention it. I cant' go back to having the foreguy downhaul dead center of foredeck either as I broke the block that was originally there.

So I guess what I am saying is, do you any of you have any pictures/tips or rigging ideas that might be better than what I am doing? I do better with visuals as I am a slow learner.

Oh and we've tried launching from the pulpit and also from the companionway... I personally prefer from the companionway, but the foredeck wants to do pulpit (argument is it's easier)... Thoughts?

 

[Chris Capri 22]

Hey Shnool, looking at the diagram you posted is nearly a carbon copy of the configuration I installed on my CP22 Fandango. The exception being I don't use blocks at position "D" but instead use fairleads slightly angled outboard for my tweakers. I think blocks are a bit of overkill at those positions but if you have blocks attached to your stanchion base it would eliminate the necessity of having to drill holes which is usually a good thing. I use 1/4" line and 5/16" blocks for my tweakers to keep their weight to a minimum.

The beauty of tweakers over a downhaul for your spinnaker pole is that it eliminates the need for a downhaul at all for downwind sailing which is most of the spinnaker sailing we do. Much, much easier and faster sail handling when jibing the spinnaker. The only time we need the downhaul is when we do any reaching with our spinnaker where we need that extra tension to really get the luff down (pole forward). But as I said, most of our spinnaker flying is downwind stuff and then our downhaul is never even hooked up. Just remember that whatever side the guy is on, that tweaker is hard on and the sheet tweaker is completely off.

I think having your downhaul going back to your mast base does not provide sufficient downward tension on your spinnaker pole and may not be much of an advantage over your tweakers if you are trying to reach with a spinnaker, but it sounds like you already knew that.

We launch from the companionway. Never really tried it from the forward hatch but after a bit of research and pondering we rigged a basket system for the companionway and never looked back. We also rigged the spinnaker halyard to be raised from the stbd side of the mast. That was a considerable improvement from raising it in the cockpit and greatly improved our efficiency in getting the spinnaker up and down.

Hope some of this helps. Happy sailing and happier racing!

Chris

 

[shnool]

Chris you bring up the second reference about losing the foreguy/downhaul for the pole by using tweakers/twings. Perhaps I am using the wrong terms? I don't see how it replaces the downhaul (Ok I guess if the control was far enough forward, but I got the impression the tweaker was supposed to be at the fattest part of the boat).

I moved the foreguy block to the mast base because it was nearly impossible to trim the kite without a coordinated effort of adjustment of top lift with the foreguy while someone sheets. When I moved the foreguy block to the mast base, it allows the pole to swivel around the mast, and the topping lift can as well... so when you trim, the whole rig and swivel, but the pole cannot sky, or drop. When you reach, and you need to allow the pole to come to the forestay (and drop), as it swings inward, the foreguy losens if it's fixed mid bow.... If the pole is fixed directly below, and you fall off and sail deeper you need the kite to swing out, and up to catch more air, and now the foreguy is too tight to allow the pole to swing if it's locked directly below mid bow. By moving the foreguy to the mast base, the pole can't sky, but it can swing with trim, which allows the spin trimmer to roll with oscillations of wind direction or course change.... Geesh I hope I explained all that right, and I am not off base. keep in mind my spinnaker pole has a top bridle and bottom bridle... so the "pulling" point is below the pole by about 18 inches. I was pretty sure the foreguy had 1 purpose, to keep the pole from skying (a huge and not so fun thing to have happen as the winds pipe up).

As for putting a fixed block on a stanchion... the Capri 25 has one huge advantage, it has T-tracks on the rail, that run from dead astern to the widest point forward. My boat was purchased and someone had the ratchet blocks on the rail, along with slides that would allow a person to put a block with a shackle. Yes I've seen people use fairleads instead of blocks, and I can see where that would simplify things!

My rail t-track has these cars:

and my rail already has these in a manual ratcheting configuration that I was running the sheet/guy through (bad I know):

That leaves me with thinking I just need a Harken 150 cam cleat to hold the tweaker/twings... and I'd be fascinated to see if the foreguy can go then (I am just NOT seeing how that could be because the tweaker can't provide enough downward force or that. but t'd simplify the foredeck for sure!

I know it's hard to get pictures of the whole operation, but do you have any?

 

[Chris Capri 22]

Yes. Tweakers(twings) replace the necessity for a foreguy(downhaul), but only for downwind sailing when not sailing much above a broad reach. When you get to a beam, a foreguy is really needed to pull the tack down and the tweakers just can't do it very well. Skying of the pole is not a problem as I am on an inland lake with little chop and no swells. Even in gusty and high winds the pole is relatively stable as long as the tack and clew are kept even.

I used Harken Micro cam cleats with wire guides for my tweakers as they are 1/4" line. Don't remember what the max line is they will accommodate but you don't need much for tweakers and less is more due to weight. I installed them on the cabin sides.

I will post pics next chance I get. I'll tell you this though; it's like experiencing the first bread slicer the first time you fly spinnaker with these things and without messing with a foreguy. They work really well.

 

[shnool]

Good info Chris, and thank you. I look forward to pictures.

For the heck of it here's a picture I coughed up from my daughter's ipod touch... It shows some of our rigging, and a few of the faster boats in our fleet (just before we passed them)...

Seconds later:

Then this:

I can post this because every one of these folks was ahead of me again shortly after the next mark rounding (again we messed up our spin launch on each lap). All in good fun though. This race was a lot of fun mostly because the action was close (like it's supposed to be). I like it when it's boats feet apart. No fun otherwise.

 

[stevenwp2]

Cleating tweakers, I've had great success with Clamcleats w/fairlead. Love 'em.

http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/cleats.asp?theid=2

 

[shnool]

Thanks Steve... my biggest gripe with clams is they allow the line to "auto-cleat." Some numbskull designed my boat with clams forward of the cabin winches for the halyards... great idea you'd think now you can use the winch for something else... OK... true, but if you use the cleat DIRECTLY behind the winch (90% of the time or more)... then the cleat FORWARD catches the line when you release, like I dunno, a quick douse?


This is a picture of the port cabintop... the line on the winch is my starboard jib halyard. Note the clam directly in front of the winch... YEP, try to drop the genoa quickly, and that halyard winds up in that cleat 50% of the time! Yeah I know I need to remove them.

 

[stevenwp2]

<<<my biggest gripe with clams is they allow the line to "auto-cleat.">>>

Yeah, the only place I used them was on my tweakers and they worked really, really well, I suppose because it's a line I'm typically either kind of playing or setting, but rarely really dumping. Tiny, no moving parts, integrated fairlead, light as a feather... I'll be using on my Capri tweakers... ;-)

 

[BillL Capri 22]

I'm going to post in favor of keeping the down haul, and running it from the base of the mast is fine.
Tweekers are usefull for getting rid of the fore-guy, but the pole still needs management independed of the sail.
Get the snatch blocks - very handy.

Whenever I start thinking about rigging, I go back to my pre-Capri home http://www.usa505.org/rigging. Granted a 505 is not a Capri, but these guys have very little limit on how they may rig their boats and so have worked any rigging issue to death.

 

[shnool]

yep I did all that and nicely sorted my Capri 25, then sold it...
I'm using the same config now for my S2.

I do have twings on my S2 though, and so far I've not needed them. I'm still keeping my downhaul at the mast base though.