I got my boat last year and am new at sailing. I had guy tune may shrouds and stays as I had the mast down to move the boat when I bought it. When I am sailing on a starboard or port tack on a broad reach in a 10 to 15 knot winds the leeward shrouds are swinging slack with a 4 to 5 inch movement. I does not seem to bother any thing and I have heard it is best to not tune them too tight. Is this normal? The stays appear O.K. and the shrouds are not slack when the boat is in the slip.
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Jim Anzalone
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Ed
There shouldn't be any slack
Even with 15 to 20 knot winds on a broad reach, the lee-shrouds should not have slack. You want to avoid shock-loading the mast which is easier to do when some shrouds are slack while others are extra tight. BTW, you can buy a tension gauge for less than $40 and tune the rigging yourself. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
Even with 15 to 20 knot winds on a broad reach, the lee-shrouds should not have slack. You want to avoid shock-loading the mast which is easier to do when some shrouds are slack while others are extra tight. BTW, you can buy a tension gauge for less than $40 and tune the rigging yourself. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
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Justin - O'day Owners' Web
Some slack may be ok.
I agree with the others - you should consider having the rig tuned again, and watching and learning. Most good riggers will not mind an audience. But slack shrouds are not necessarily a problem - true you do not want to shock load the rig - but the boat will flex and the only way to avoid any slack may be to overtighten the rig. This is worse than the slight slack. Have your rigger help you one more time and tell us what he says. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
I agree with the others - you should consider having the rig tuned again, and watching and learning. Most good riggers will not mind an audience. But slack shrouds are not necessarily a problem - true you do not want to shock load the rig - but the boat will flex and the only way to avoid any slack may be to overtighten the rig. This is worse than the slight slack. Have your rigger help you one more time and tell us what he says. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
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John Dawson
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Mark M Smith
Something to look at from the Maker
Take a look at the tuning info from hunter at the link below. The leeward side should NOT be that loose!
Take a look at the tuning info from hunter at the link below. The leeward side should NOT be that loose!
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Ed
Master Rigger says No slack.
The previous info I provided is from the Brion Toss video, where he states that the lee shrouds should have absolutely no slack, even on a broad reach with 15 to 20 knot winds. He shows how he tunes the rigging statically (at the dock), but then makes a dynamic tuning while on a broad reach. He takes out any slack he encounters. When back at the dock, he measures the amount of tension on each side and does a final tuning to equalize the tension. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
The previous info I provided is from the Brion Toss video, where he states that the lee shrouds should have absolutely no slack, even on a broad reach with 15 to 20 knot winds. He shows how he tunes the rigging statically (at the dock), but then makes a dynamic tuning while on a broad reach. He takes out any slack he encounters. When back at the dock, he measures the amount of tension on each side and does a final tuning to equalize the tension. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
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Bruce Trotter
Thanks
Thanks to all who responded. I have some work to do ! As a general comment , this is the best web site as I have gotten much valuable information from my questions as well as other peoples questions. Thanks again.....
Thanks to all who responded. I have some work to do ! As a general comment , this is the best web site as I have gotten much valuable information from my questions as well as other peoples questions. Thanks again.....
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Tom Monroe
Ed ... does this apply ...
... to smaller (22 ft. O'Day), OLD boats also? I have my shrouds tuned to deflect slightly on static load, but at 20 knots broad off there's some slack. I'm somewhat concerned that if I crank enough tension into them to eliminate, I'll do more harm than good. On the other hand, I've experienced the shock loading problem on a boat tuned with some slack. Was racing a 30 footer all night in a storm on a port tack. Early in the morning, we came about, and as the load hit the mast, it fractured at the spreader. Couldn't believe an extrusion with walls that thick could explode like that ... but that's what happened. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
... to smaller (22 ft. O'Day), OLD boats also? I have my shrouds tuned to deflect slightly on static load, but at 20 knots broad off there's some slack. I'm somewhat concerned that if I crank enough tension into them to eliminate, I'll do more harm than good. On the other hand, I've experienced the shock loading problem on a boat tuned with some slack. Was racing a 30 footer all night in a storm on a port tack. Early in the morning, we came about, and as the load hit the mast, it fractured at the spreader. Couldn't believe an extrusion with walls that thick could explode like that ... but that's what happened. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
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Ed
I'm no master rigger, but...
from the Brion Toss video, he recommends the upper shrouds be tensioned to 15% of the breaking strength of the wire, and the lower shrouds to about 10%. When I tuned my rigging accordingly, I was appalled to find the original tension to be less than 8% and 5%, respectively. Now that they're at the recommended levels, the rigging seems firm, but not overly so. Also, there's no slack on the lee-shrouds, even on a broad reach. I haven't sailed in 20 knot winds yet, but I'm pretty confident the mast won't experience any shock-loading with the current tune. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
from the Brion Toss video, he recommends the upper shrouds be tensioned to 15% of the breaking strength of the wire, and the lower shrouds to about 10%. When I tuned my rigging accordingly, I was appalled to find the original tension to be less than 8% and 5%, respectively. Now that they're at the recommended levels, the rigging seems firm, but not overly so. Also, there's no slack on the lee-shrouds, even on a broad reach. I haven't sailed in 20 knot winds yet, but I'm pretty confident the mast won't experience any shock-loading with the current tune. ~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
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David Foster
No slack, old or new big or small
Properly tuned standing rigging safely transfers huge static loads in high winds. Although the movement allowed by slack may be small, adding a dynamic load to the system can easily add instantaneous loads that exceed the static loads. Thus the exploding spreader is a small result - loss of the rig is another possibility. These are the physics of standing rigging. The mast and hull were designed for these loads because they are necessary when sailing. Since wire sizes are scaled to the boat, they apply to all sizes and ages of boats. David Lady Lillie
Properly tuned standing rigging safely transfers huge static loads in high winds. Although the movement allowed by slack may be small, adding a dynamic load to the system can easily add instantaneous loads that exceed the static loads. Thus the exploding spreader is a small result - loss of the rig is another possibility. These are the physics of standing rigging. The mast and hull were designed for these loads because they are necessary when sailing. Since wire sizes are scaled to the boat, they apply to all sizes and ages of boats. David Lady Lillie
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Dale I
Rod Rigging Tension?
The guages for rig tension are not applicable for rod rigging, right? So, how does one with rod determine % of breaking strength other than by-guess-and-by-gosh... The guy, (yard foreman and avid sailor), that 'tuned' my single spreader rod rig seemed to think that it couldn't be tight enough... As it turns out, the slack side in 12-15 knots is just 'slack' but sounds like a guitar string when at the dock... how much is too much?
The guages for rig tension are not applicable for rod rigging, right? So, how does one with rod determine % of breaking strength other than by-guess-and-by-gosh... The guy, (yard foreman and avid sailor), that 'tuned' my single spreader rod rig seemed to think that it couldn't be tight enough... As it turns out, the slack side in 12-15 knots is just 'slack' but sounds like a guitar string when at the dock... how much is too much?
Common sense and basic math
The procedure recommended by Brion Toss makes sense. The size of the boat and the type of rigging (wire vs. rod) makes no difference. In fact, you don't even need a tension gauge. The test is simple: when close-hauled under full sail in 20 kt of wind, the leeward upper shroud should not be slack. All you have to do is tighten the leeward shroud until the slack is gone. It's that simple. Of course, whatever you do to the leeward shroud (number of turns used to tighten the turnbuckle), has to be done to the windward shroud right away so the rig remains balanced from side to side. The shrouds also change sides when you come about. Why 20 kt of wind and not higher? Above 20 kt it will probably be time to put in the first reef, so the tension in the shrouds will actually be reduced. Now for the math...let's assume that both upper shrouds are tensioned to 20% of the breaking strength at the dock. Now you're out sailing close-hauled and the leeward shroud is just slack (zero tension). That means the windward shroud is carrying its original tension (20%) plus the extra tension needed to move the masthead to leeward just enough to eliminate the 20% in the leeward shroud. The total tension in the windward shroud is now 40% of the breaking strength. It sounds like a lot (Wow! The load doubled!) but that's still only 40% of the breaking strength, which is equivalent to a factor of safety of 2.5. Even if you allow for aging, you are still well within the strength of the wire. This approach works because it prevents the mast from moving side to side, and prevents the wire from undergoing shock loads. A shock load is at least twice the static load, so the safety factor will evaporate very quickly. A word of caution. Don't be lulled by wire strength. The wire itself may be fine but the end fittings may not. Inspect the rig at least once a season. Peter H23 "Raven"
The procedure recommended by Brion Toss makes sense. The size of the boat and the type of rigging (wire vs. rod) makes no difference. In fact, you don't even need a tension gauge. The test is simple: when close-hauled under full sail in 20 kt of wind, the leeward upper shroud should not be slack. All you have to do is tighten the leeward shroud until the slack is gone. It's that simple. Of course, whatever you do to the leeward shroud (number of turns used to tighten the turnbuckle), has to be done to the windward shroud right away so the rig remains balanced from side to side. The shrouds also change sides when you come about. Why 20 kt of wind and not higher? Above 20 kt it will probably be time to put in the first reef, so the tension in the shrouds will actually be reduced. Now for the math...let's assume that both upper shrouds are tensioned to 20% of the breaking strength at the dock. Now you're out sailing close-hauled and the leeward shroud is just slack (zero tension). That means the windward shroud is carrying its original tension (20%) plus the extra tension needed to move the masthead to leeward just enough to eliminate the 20% in the leeward shroud. The total tension in the windward shroud is now 40% of the breaking strength. It sounds like a lot (Wow! The load doubled!) but that's still only 40% of the breaking strength, which is equivalent to a factor of safety of 2.5. Even if you allow for aging, you are still well within the strength of the wire. This approach works because it prevents the mast from moving side to side, and prevents the wire from undergoing shock loads. A shock load is at least twice the static load, so the safety factor will evaporate very quickly. A word of caution. Don't be lulled by wire strength. The wire itself may be fine but the end fittings may not. Inspect the rig at least once a season. Peter H23 "Raven"
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John Dawson
Say again?
I go out in 20 knots with rigging too loose, get on starboard tack so the mast bends to port, and take up tension on the port shrouds. Then I tack and take the remaining slack on stb shrouds. Why wouldn't my mast then be tensioned too far to port?
I go out in 20 knots with rigging too loose, get on starboard tack so the mast bends to port, and take up tension on the port shrouds. Then I tack and take the remaining slack on stb shrouds. Why wouldn't my mast then be tensioned too far to port?
John
I'm sorry if my description wasn't clear. The best way to do this is to start at the dock with all the shrouds slack. Tighten the uppers equally (same number of turns) until the slack is gone. Make sure the mast is centered side to side (measure by pulling the main halyard to the chainlate on either side). Adjust the turnbuckles as needed to center the mast. Add a couple more turns to both turnbuckles for good measure. Now, go sailing and watch the leeward shroud. Using your example, take out the slack in the port shroud. Count the number of turns of the turnbuckle it takes to achieve this. Now come about, and put the SAME number of turns on the starboard turnbuckle as you did on the port turnbuckle. As you rightly pointed out, the slack will be gone before you get all the turns in, but you have to keep adding turns to equalize the tension on both sides. You may have to repeat the process a couple of times to fine-tune. Then tension the lowers. It's a little more complicated if you have a fractional rig and swept-back spreaders like I do because tensioning the uppers causes the middle of the mast to bow forward (aka "pre-bend"). Tension the uppers at the dock until you have the amount of pre-bend you need, tighten the lowers, then go out and watch the leeward shrouds. Tension the lowers first, then the uppers as before. The tensioned lowers reduce the mast's tendency to bend as the uppers are being tensioned further. The idea is to give the mast more lateral support without adding more bend. Hope it's clearer now. Peter H23 "Raven"
I'm sorry if my description wasn't clear. The best way to do this is to start at the dock with all the shrouds slack. Tighten the uppers equally (same number of turns) until the slack is gone. Make sure the mast is centered side to side (measure by pulling the main halyard to the chainlate on either side). Adjust the turnbuckles as needed to center the mast. Add a couple more turns to both turnbuckles for good measure. Now, go sailing and watch the leeward shroud. Using your example, take out the slack in the port shroud. Count the number of turns of the turnbuckle it takes to achieve this. Now come about, and put the SAME number of turns on the starboard turnbuckle as you did on the port turnbuckle. As you rightly pointed out, the slack will be gone before you get all the turns in, but you have to keep adding turns to equalize the tension on both sides. You may have to repeat the process a couple of times to fine-tune. Then tension the lowers. It's a little more complicated if you have a fractional rig and swept-back spreaders like I do because tensioning the uppers causes the middle of the mast to bow forward (aka "pre-bend"). Tension the uppers at the dock until you have the amount of pre-bend you need, tighten the lowers, then go out and watch the leeward shrouds. Tension the lowers first, then the uppers as before. The tensioned lowers reduce the mast's tendency to bend as the uppers are being tensioned further. The idea is to give the mast more lateral support without adding more bend. Hope it's clearer now. Peter H23 "Raven"
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