As a New H23 (86) owner, I've been trying to tune my mast according to many of the articles in this forum and the owners manual. I have a White Kenyon mast a 150 Genoa and I still seem to have a lee helm in moderate winds. I have almost 10" of aft rake measured at the base of the mast. I have about 600lbs of tension on the forstay and 400 on the backstays, at least 1 1/2" bend on the mast. Upper shrouds at about 400 and lower the same. Do I continue to rake the mast aft? Any thoughts? Thanks
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Headstay tension
Last weekend, while preparing to lower my mast, I was trying to see how much tension I had to apply to the jib halyard (shackled to the bow fitting) in order to slacken the forestay. I eventually found out that my headstay was way too tight. This is probably why I have never been able to tension the luff of the jib properly. In my dinghy sailing days, the forestay was set just tight enough to keep the mast from falling backwards. When raising the jib, the halyard was tensioned until the wire forestay just went slack and the luff wire in the jib effectively became the forestay. Is this the way it should be on the H23? I checked a H23.5 two slips down and their forestay is pretty loose. I also read somewhere (probably here) that the tension in the upper shrouds should be 20% of its breaking strength, and the tension in the lowers should be 10%. Does anyone know the breaking strength of 5/32" wire? How about the backstay tension? Help!! Peter S/V Raven
Last weekend, while preparing to lower my mast, I was trying to see how much tension I had to apply to the jib halyard (shackled to the bow fitting) in order to slacken the forestay. I eventually found out that my headstay was way too tight. This is probably why I have never been able to tension the luff of the jib properly. In my dinghy sailing days, the forestay was set just tight enough to keep the mast from falling backwards. When raising the jib, the halyard was tensioned until the wire forestay just went slack and the luff wire in the jib effectively became the forestay. Is this the way it should be on the H23? I checked a H23.5 two slips down and their forestay is pretty loose. I also read somewhere (probably here) that the tension in the upper shrouds should be 20% of its breaking strength, and the tension in the lowers should be 10%. Does anyone know the breaking strength of 5/32" wire? How about the backstay tension? Help!! Peter S/V Raven
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Hal Pyke
5/32" tension
Peter...According to the Loos gauge instructions, the breaking strength is 3300 lbs. Never to be tightened above 25% (825lbs). Ive read also that the lowers should be less than the uppers but 10% compared with 20% seems extreme. It may vary with the differences in Mast and spreader length.
Peter...According to the Loos gauge instructions, the breaking strength is 3300 lbs. Never to be tightened above 25% (825lbs). Ive read also that the lowers should be less than the uppers but 10% compared with 20% seems extreme. It may vary with the differences in Mast and spreader length.
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MikeY
10" only of rake ?
Unless I measured my 86 H23 incorrectly, I got about 24" of rake. I tried loosening the backstays (and even took them off, to get the top and bottom of turnbuckle the same turns on thread) all the way out so I can just get a clip-ring in the hole there. Still can't get it lower than 18"...so I'll be making a bigger backstay plate, with holes in lots of places so it will be very adjustable.
Unless I measured my 86 H23 incorrectly, I got about 24" of rake. I tried loosening the backstays (and even took them off, to get the top and bottom of turnbuckle the same turns on thread) all the way out so I can just get a clip-ring in the hole there. Still can't get it lower than 18"...so I'll be making a bigger backstay plate, with holes in lots of places so it will be very adjustable.
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Gary Bridi
Mast Rake
I've read this posting and the archives postings and mush of it does not make sense...at least for my H23 wing keel. I put her in the water this weekend. when I raised the mast, the staye were loose and just to be sure, I backed them off a few turns. Then I had my brother hole the mast and put pressure on it toward the foredeck. I checked to be sure that the mast base was properly seated and in contact with the mast holder on the deck. All all surfaces were in contact, so the mast was not misaligned. Then I got off the boat and viewed it from a distance and there was considerable reke aft, Id estimate about 20 inches. The mast curves aft without any tension as I had noted when it was stored in the basement this winter. So, I my question is how mush rake can actually be tuned out of the mast? With respect to the forces one can apply, if the sidestays stabalize the center portion of the mast, then a tight forestay would maximize the amount of rake that can be tuned out. In any event, tuning out a natural 20" seems impossible. Gary
I've read this posting and the archives postings and mush of it does not make sense...at least for my H23 wing keel. I put her in the water this weekend. when I raised the mast, the staye were loose and just to be sure, I backed them off a few turns. Then I had my brother hole the mast and put pressure on it toward the foredeck. I checked to be sure that the mast base was properly seated and in contact with the mast holder on the deck. All all surfaces were in contact, so the mast was not misaligned. Then I got off the boat and viewed it from a distance and there was considerable reke aft, Id estimate about 20 inches. The mast curves aft without any tension as I had noted when it was stored in the basement this winter. So, I my question is how mush rake can actually be tuned out of the mast? With respect to the forces one can apply, if the sidestays stabalize the center portion of the mast, then a tight forestay would maximize the amount of rake that can be tuned out. In any event, tuning out a natural 20" seems impossible. Gary
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Mike Epp
mast rake
I likewise thought my mast was raked too far back and attempted to tighten the forestay wanting also to get the low hanging boom higher above the cockpit. But I found that the forestay was adjusted as tight as it would go in the turnbuckle so I couldn't adjust it any further forward. Does anyone know if I can tighten it at the top of the mast when I take the mast down?
I likewise thought my mast was raked too far back and attempted to tighten the forestay wanting also to get the low hanging boom higher above the cockpit. But I found that the forestay was adjusted as tight as it would go in the turnbuckle so I couldn't adjust it any further forward. Does anyone know if I can tighten it at the top of the mast when I take the mast down?
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Jim Kolstoe
Built that way
Guys, I think you need to remember that the h23 is designed to have mast rake and prebend, and for the boom to hang below horozontal, and that the sails are cut for those characteristics. I have done some of the things you're asking about, and can say I'm fortunate my mast is bendy. Remember you're dealing with a set of interelated systems. The uppers push in and forward on the spreades, producing pre-bend, and additionally pull the upper portion of the mast back. The lowers pull the mid-section back, opposing the effects of the uppers at the spreaders, stablizing the mast agasint pumping and reducing prebend. Although the forestay does set a limit on how far back the mast can go, it really only applys to the point of attachment. My experience suggests its easier to understand if you think of the mast pivoting around that fixed point as force is applied by the back stay (at the head) or the uppers (just below the forstay). If you tighten your back stays, you will pull the head back, tighten the forestay (reducing jib luff sag) and force the mast to bow forward in the center section, pulling mainsail fabric forward (thus flattening the main and moving draft forward). As for numbers for tuning your mast, I've been told that Hunter bought components from a number of sources based on price and availability. Which is believeable since the h23 appearently had three different masts supplied as original equipment (an interesting string in the archives discussed this point). The manual gives generalities on tuning, then advises that the leeward stays should not be slack in 10 - 12 kts of wind. The suggestion I received was play with it until it performed right, then measure the stay tensions and note them down. It may be that there is sufficient variation that this is the only feasible approach. Mike, regarding your low boom, I think that its intented to provide more power lower down, almost like an endplate effect. If you really want to raise it, having made sure the sail's at full hoist, you will need to recut the sail. My wife's 5'4" and has never had a problem with the boom. I'm 6',and good at ducking. Its never been enough of a problem to warrant any other approach. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
Guys, I think you need to remember that the h23 is designed to have mast rake and prebend, and for the boom to hang below horozontal, and that the sails are cut for those characteristics. I have done some of the things you're asking about, and can say I'm fortunate my mast is bendy. Remember you're dealing with a set of interelated systems. The uppers push in and forward on the spreades, producing pre-bend, and additionally pull the upper portion of the mast back. The lowers pull the mid-section back, opposing the effects of the uppers at the spreaders, stablizing the mast agasint pumping and reducing prebend. Although the forestay does set a limit on how far back the mast can go, it really only applys to the point of attachment. My experience suggests its easier to understand if you think of the mast pivoting around that fixed point as force is applied by the back stay (at the head) or the uppers (just below the forstay). If you tighten your back stays, you will pull the head back, tighten the forestay (reducing jib luff sag) and force the mast to bow forward in the center section, pulling mainsail fabric forward (thus flattening the main and moving draft forward). As for numbers for tuning your mast, I've been told that Hunter bought components from a number of sources based on price and availability. Which is believeable since the h23 appearently had three different masts supplied as original equipment (an interesting string in the archives discussed this point). The manual gives generalities on tuning, then advises that the leeward stays should not be slack in 10 - 12 kts of wind. The suggestion I received was play with it until it performed right, then measure the stay tensions and note them down. It may be that there is sufficient variation that this is the only feasible approach. Mike, regarding your low boom, I think that its intented to provide more power lower down, almost like an endplate effect. If you really want to raise it, having made sure the sail's at full hoist, you will need to recut the sail. My wife's 5'4" and has never had a problem with the boom. I'm 6',and good at ducking. Its never been enough of a problem to warrant any other approach. Jim Kolstoe, h23 Kara's Boo
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Greg Stebbins
Yea, what Jim said!
I can't believe the degree of rake you guys are seeing. 6-7 inches is about what I use and let the back stay adjuster take care of the rest. As for the stay length issue, they can't stretch that much. You're talking about way more than 7-10 inches of stretch. Either Hunter had a little quality problem back in the 80's or a previous owner was doing some serious experimenting with mast rake. I recommend that you replace your existing stays with the correct lengths ASAP. And Peter, I’ve got a jib foot tension rig you may want to consider. It’s sort of a Cunningham rig for the Jib. I replaced the wire/shackle arrangement, which was standard on the 23 with 2 micro triple blocks (one with cleat). It makes a world of difference.
I can't believe the degree of rake you guys are seeing. 6-7 inches is about what I use and let the back stay adjuster take care of the rest. As for the stay length issue, they can't stretch that much. You're talking about way more than 7-10 inches of stretch. Either Hunter had a little quality problem back in the 80's or a previous owner was doing some serious experimenting with mast rake. I recommend that you replace your existing stays with the correct lengths ASAP. And Peter, I’ve got a jib foot tension rig you may want to consider. It’s sort of a Cunningham rig for the Jib. I replaced the wire/shackle arrangement, which was standard on the 23 with 2 micro triple blocks (one with cleat). It makes a world of difference.
Response to Jim Kolstoe & others...
Jim, I think your post was on the money. When I first got my H23 (Z-spar mast), I immediately noticed the severe rake (about 24" when I measured it). I also had severe weather helm. Rule #1, there is a fair amount of variation in H23 rigs. After discussions with several people (including Cliff R), I moved the top of the mast forward by easing the backstay and tightening the forestay until I had about 8 inches of rake. The weather helm disappeared almost entirely, particularly when the wind picks up. Since I don't have to use the rudder to oppose the sails, I also lost some drag and gained a little boatspeed. Then I tightened the shrouds in stages until the uppers were just slack going to weather in 15 kts of wind with an unreefed main and skipper and crew on the cockpit coaming. At that point, more wind, or moving back into the cockpit would have required a reef. The tension in the uppers at that point was 825 lbs, measured with a Loos gage. That's a bit more than the recommended 20 percent of the breaking strength of the 5/32" wire (700 lb). I guess that makes my rig a little stiffer; the top of the main doesn't twist off as easily as it should to spill some of the wind (which is why I am up on the coaming, trying to reduce the heel!). But I got more boatspeed.... During this whole exercise, I never measured the tension in the forestay. based on your post, it appears that as I tightened the uppers, the forestay tension also increased. I did notice that no matter how hard I tensioned the jib halyard, I could never get the luff of the jib really tight (110 jib). After reading your post, I am pretty sure that my forestay is too tight. I should be able to use halyard tension to adjust the jib for varying wind conditions. For this to work, normal (medium) halyard tension should make the wire forestay go just slack. I am going to back out some of the forestay tension this week and see what happens. I will note all Loos gage radings for future reference. In the final analysis, a lot hinges on individual sailing style, i.e. easy kicked-back cruising and reefing early, or hanging it out a little further for that little extra bit of speed. Rule #2: This will depend on who is on board with you that day! Peter S/V Raven
Jim, I think your post was on the money. When I first got my H23 (Z-spar mast), I immediately noticed the severe rake (about 24" when I measured it). I also had severe weather helm. Rule #1, there is a fair amount of variation in H23 rigs. After discussions with several people (including Cliff R), I moved the top of the mast forward by easing the backstay and tightening the forestay until I had about 8 inches of rake. The weather helm disappeared almost entirely, particularly when the wind picks up. Since I don't have to use the rudder to oppose the sails, I also lost some drag and gained a little boatspeed. Then I tightened the shrouds in stages until the uppers were just slack going to weather in 15 kts of wind with an unreefed main and skipper and crew on the cockpit coaming. At that point, more wind, or moving back into the cockpit would have required a reef. The tension in the uppers at that point was 825 lbs, measured with a Loos gage. That's a bit more than the recommended 20 percent of the breaking strength of the 5/32" wire (700 lb). I guess that makes my rig a little stiffer; the top of the main doesn't twist off as easily as it should to spill some of the wind (which is why I am up on the coaming, trying to reduce the heel!). But I got more boatspeed.... During this whole exercise, I never measured the tension in the forestay. based on your post, it appears that as I tightened the uppers, the forestay tension also increased. I did notice that no matter how hard I tensioned the jib halyard, I could never get the luff of the jib really tight (110 jib). After reading your post, I am pretty sure that my forestay is too tight. I should be able to use halyard tension to adjust the jib for varying wind conditions. For this to work, normal (medium) halyard tension should make the wire forestay go just slack. I am going to back out some of the forestay tension this week and see what happens. I will note all Loos gage radings for future reference. In the final analysis, a lot hinges on individual sailing style, i.e. easy kicked-back cruising and reefing early, or hanging it out a little further for that little extra bit of speed. Rule #2: This will depend on who is on board with you that day! Peter S/V Raven
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Gary Bridi
Thanks
Thank you for the interesting posts. Ill do what I can to tune out some of the rake based on your comments. Gary
Thank you for the interesting posts. Ill do what I can to tune out some of the rake based on your comments. Gary
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Geoff Kloster
Aft weight
Remember that with a moter, battery, water tank, and gas tank in the aft portion of the boat the "water line" is not parallel to the water. Looking at your mast with the boat at rest will show more rake than there "really" is. On my H23 the blue line is about 3" out of the water forward and right at the water aft.
Remember that with a moter, battery, water tank, and gas tank in the aft portion of the boat the "water line" is not parallel to the water. Looking at your mast with the boat at rest will show more rake than there "really" is. On my H23 the blue line is about 3" out of the water forward and right at the water aft.
Re: Weight aft
I either took things off the boat or moved them forward to balance the boat fore and aft before I checked the rake. I used the drawing in the owners manual as a guide. Peter S/V Raven
I either took things off the boat or moved them forward to balance the boat fore and aft before I checked the rake. I used the drawing in the owners manual as a guide. Peter S/V Raven
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MISC
Mast and more on H23
Also have H23 with about 6 feet of rake, was thinking of using it as a closeline but... 1 - from all posts, Cliff too, about 8-10" of final rake would be good 2 - you may need to make a different backstay triangle, the one where it goes from 2:1 3 - I added 3-400lbs of books under seats, which balances out engine, plus puts more weight in front of mast (under v-birth too) 4 - may need to shorten forestay When I get the right lengths, I'm making twin backstays.
Also have H23 with about 6 feet of rake, was thinking of using it as a closeline but... 1 - from all posts, Cliff too, about 8-10" of final rake would be good 2 - you may need to make a different backstay triangle, the one where it goes from 2:1 3 - I added 3-400lbs of books under seats, which balances out engine, plus puts more weight in front of mast (under v-birth too) 4 - may need to shorten forestay When I get the right lengths, I'm making twin backstays.
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