Trying to anticipate new circumstances when racing new boat P-S overtaking

Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
My new boat will be among the fastest in the fleet I am in which is dominated by symmetrical boats some of which will be faster upwind than me but probably slower downwind. This is my first asymmetric boat and I will be spending a lot more brain power on downwind angles and laylines.
Assuming I am coming from the right side of the course on starboard downwind and on my chosen layline is a symmetric boat on port going slower but on a collision course. Do I go up a bit and take his stern or enforce my rights and start hollering starboard. It seems to me that he will have a hard time keeping clear in this situation.
 

JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
Having trouble picturing the situation. If you are "coming from the right side of the course", wouldn't you be heading back toward the center and if the wind is square to the course, wouldn't you be on port jibe? Elaborate please or straighten me out.
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
Sorry JR, I was referring to the right side in the upwind direction. Right or wrong, we always label it that way to remove confusion like this.
Dan
 

JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
Ah, the other "right".

My first thought is, don't actively engage the other boat unless it is necessary from a strategic or tactical point of view.

Second, take the route that will keep you in clear air longer and allow you to keep your speed up. If that means heading up to cross his stern before you jibe, do that. OTOH if you can keep enough separation between you and them in a crossing in front of them and have enough speed that his wind shadow will minimally affect you then go that route. Lot depends on the angles and the speed differences in my opinion. Downside of going behind is that you may end up in their wind shadow when you jibe over to port out to their right side. Likely that crossing in front keeps you out of the shadow after you jibe as you probably need less separation from them if you are out front and on his starboard bow.
 
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JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
One of my "rules to live by" is that if you are the slower boat it doesn't help you any to try to engage a faster boat that is setting up to pass you. You may slow them down in the process but you slow down too and given that they are faster they are eventually going to get by you so all you do is defer the inevitable and allow trailing boats to gain ground on you. So, the smart thing to do is let them go with as little fanfare as possible and keep your own boat speed up in the process. I often "coach" slower boats in the fleet on this rule as I am setting up to pass them! :biggrin:

In OD fleets, this rule is ignored if there are strategic or tactical reasons to try to slow the one trying to pass.
 
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Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
We have always been one of the slower boats downwind so this has not been on my radar but I am trying to brush up on the rules as they pertain to us roaring downwind instead of creeping. I can certainly see that paying attention to the best angles based on my polars will be a discipline I will need to focus on but I always like to think ahead and anticipate the options before they appear....though not normally months ahead like this. You would almost think I am excited about this new boat!
 
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DArcy

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Feb 11, 2017
1,690
Islander Freeport 36 Ottawa
I agree that forcing your stand on position is not always the fastest or smartest thing to do. There really are a lot of different scenarios such as how close to the mark are you, are there other boats around that will have an impact after you cross that port tack boat, are you closer to passing ahead or behind (how much do you need to alter course).
When I took the North U course, the instructor told us the ducker always wins. This was in reference to up wind port-starboard situations but don't assume forcing your right to hold course is the fastest way to the mark. If you see the crossing early enough, it is very easy to change course by a degree or two and go astern without impacting your speed. If you force the altercation, they may even jibe, forcing you to sail under and they take your wind, even if it is a short time since you are faster.
Know your boat, know your opponents, look at the big picture, plan ahead. That last one is more important the faster you sail.
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
J-88 the new boat?
Yes Sir. I am pretty sure she is way faster than I am and we will jump to the top fleet where the most experienced skippers are at our club so I figure I had better be thoroughly prepped. Fortunately there are well developed boat set-up documents and polars so I have a head start versus the other boats I have sailed. A few new strings to pull as well....
 

JRacer

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Aug 9, 2011
1,331
Beneteau 310 Cheney KS (Wichita)
Yes Sir. I am pretty sure she is way faster than I am and we will jump to the top fleet where the most experienced skippers are at our club so I figure I had better be thoroughly prepped. Fortunately there are well developed boat set-up documents and polars so I have a head start versus the other boats I have sailed. A few new strings to pull as well....
Sweet! Nice rig. Call me envious! Yeah, you got to get your head "further ahead of the airplane" with that boat. Quite sure you will love it! I loved my J/24 for 30 years!
 
Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
Laughing as my Number 2 will love that analogy as he is a former Air Force Pilot and a commercial Captain for many years flying the big Airbus for Air Emirates. I was lucky enough to get two good sets of sails as well with the boat so that is looked after so now we have to practice. A fellow SBO member has suggested that we practice douses over and over again which I think is a great idea. We are also looking for some crew with experience with Asyms to help with the learning curve.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,039
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
It sounds like this is decided but I'll offer this. If it's a choice between ducking behind a slower, deeper sailing symmetrical boat or trying to out sail it downwind, that seems like a no brainer to me. The asymmetrical will be faster ducking (heading at a hotter angle) and slower trying to sail more downwind to pass on the leeward side of the symmetrical. Of course the asymmetrical boat can head up but it will be a losing battle for it. Looking at it another way, would you rather have another boat eat your wind shadow or would you rather try to sail through its?
 
May 23, 2016
217
O'Day 1984 23 Island Park, NY
Without info about other boats, I think the key here is that as stated the symmetrical is on your chosen layline... So you have to jibe at some point... If you jibe after duckng him, not only have you overstood the line but presuming a port rounding you also given him inside rights unless you can sail though his shadow and get clear ahead... I don't like it... But as others have pointed out if you enforce ur rights he could jibe on ur wind and ur already on or past the line... Consider this...
Make it look like ur ducking so he doesn't, ...jibe at the last moment onto his wind... pass him and get clear ahead.. then try to sail a little deep to get that last length to the layline... If u can't do either at least u have inside rights and can shoot the mark while ur dousing...
But of course I race JAM so what do I know
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I see this all the time. From both sides.
If you are an starboard go where you want, but you have to watch out for what that means. It me it means clear air and room to do what I want. If I’m on BlueJ on port and a j70 comes in on starboard, I’ll turn up and over then, and then they’ll owe me room at the Mark, and I’m in their breeze.
 
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Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Was sailing all weekend so sorry for the short reply. More thoughts:

Sym and Asym boats meeting at the leeward mark is always going to be a $hit-show. If the wind is light, both come in at approx the same speed, but the asyms are tacking downwind and meet the syms at crazy angles. Get ready to quote RRS#17. A lot. If it's breezy, the angles are close, but the asyms at doing 12-15 knots, and syms are doing 7. THINK WAY AHEAD.

If this is new to your RCs, then they have to start thinking about it now. We use difference courses and starts to space out fleets. Bigger picture, its not really fair (to EITHER parties) to races sportboats vs displacement hulls. Depending on wind speed and/or course, one is ALWAYS at a huge advantage. If they do, ask them to set leeward gate (as opposed to marks) to give options to the boats.
 
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Aug 2, 2010
502
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
Thanks Everybody, you have added a ton to the thinking. It is fairly clear looking at the prevailing winds and the pattern from shore that we will generally be making only one gybe from starboard at the mark rounding to port as we head back to the mark. From memory, most of the other boats will be heading down to the mark on starboard so I will likely be coming in without rights. Fortunately for the early days at least I will be pretty conservative and dousing earlier rather than later so hopefully I will have options.
This fleet is largely symmetrical boats with perhaps only one other assym boat and I really don't know if they have had many issues to deal with.
Thanks again for the input, Dan
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
we will generally be making only one gybe from starboard at the mark rounding to port as we head back to the mark.
Remember, just like you tack upwind to stay lifted, you gybe downwind to stay knocked!
 
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