Trouble starting boat...once again

[Team118]

I believe I posted something last year about this and want some thoughts.

I have a 1977 Catalina 30 with the Atomic 4 engine. The coil, plugs, points etc are all new.

I moved the engine gauges to the back of the boat about 6 years ago with new wiring. All 12 awg marine wiring. This includes the ignition switch. Last year I had started having trouble starting the boat once I'd been out on the lake for a few hours. The only thing I'd run would be the radio and the Humminbird Chart Plotter. It wouldn't click or anything, just nothing. Voltage would read about 12v on my gauge and 12.5 on the chartplotter.

While docked, the boat is hooked to a Xantrax Trucharge 40amp to both banks. A reserve with a Maxx-29 battery and the house WAS 2 Maxx-29's. They were 5 years old and I bought 4 new T-105 Trojans for the house. The charger is set to charge then float.

Sometimes to get the boat started I would have to 'finesse' the key to get the boat to start, other times it just wouldn't start. Because of that, I replaced the ignition switch last year. It seemed to go away.

It happened again this year AFTER I bought the new batteries and there is no way it's a lack of battery power. I replaced the ignition switch with a new one I had as extra. Today it did the same thing. The only way to get the boat started was to hot wire the starter...started right up.

I'm at a loss here, as to what to check, what to replace or make better...anything. My only thought is that the starter ignition is aft by the stern and has to run mid-boat to the engine and as I've said, I use 12awg. Maybe this is a bit thin? Maybe 10 or possible 6 or 8awg? I just don't see that as an issue, but I am not an expert.

Even switching to the reserve or both doesn't help and the alternator is connected directly to the house bank..

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Chris

 

[Old Skool Neil]

You have a bad/loose/corroded connection somewhere or maybe even a damaged wire. Based on your description the usual suspects are:

1. Red (hot) wire from starter post to ignition switch.
2. White (starter) wire from ignition switch to starter solenoid.
3. Ignition switch itself (again). It's exposed to the elements all the time. I change mine bi-annually just on principle, am about to rework the panel and get rid of it in favor of a booted toggle ignition switch and a booted pushbutton starter switch.

I'd usually include battery cables and grounds but if hot-wiring solved the problem I'm thinking they're OK. No harm in checking though. The Universal and Moyer wiring diagrams call for 10 gauge red (hot) and white (starter) and 14 gauge everywhere else. Your symptoms are not indicative of normal voltage drop (combination of gauge and length) however.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Neil's right, although I discount #3 because we have a 26 year old boat and that old switch just keeps working.

The one thing not mentioned is your ground connections. Don't forget them. In most cases, I agree, it's a connection, but most starting problems we've had reported with our boats (admittedly diesels, but the concept is the same) are the ground connection at the engine.

 

[Nahart51]

Don't forget you could have a bad starter. I had the exact same issues. Sometimes start.. Sometimes nothing. Replaced everything including battery. Ended up being the starter solenoid. I replaced the starter and bought a crank for good measure.

 

[foolproof]

I agree with Neil and Stu...together they have covered about everything.

However, you said that the only way to start it was to hot wire the starter...did you mean you ran a hot wire to the solenoid, or actually to the starter? I'm guessing solenoid. Given that, it would seem that the grounds are OK, or it still wouldn't work.

One way to check it out would be to check voltage at the solenoid while someone turns the key, and look for 12+ volts. Of course, just because you have the voltage doesn't mean you have the ap carrying capacity in the circuit.

I would ring out every wire in this circuit. There will be some source of power to the key switch, and a wire to the solenoid. Check each and every wire...look specifically at any crimped connection for corrosion. You mentioned using marine grade wire, which should be way better at resisting corrosion, but if you used auto-grade connectors you may still be prone to corrosion. If you didn't use connectors, but used terminal strips instead (the kind you stuff the stripped wire into, then tighten a screw to hold it in), I would look at each of those connections as well by taking each wire out and inspecting for corrosion.

I work on old airplanes for a living, and see this kind of thing regularly. More often than not there is voltage in the circuit, but the corrosion creates way too much resistance to carry any load.

Look carefully, and good luck...I feel confident you will find corrosion to be your problem.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I forgot to ask: When it doesn't start, does it make no sound at all? If so, check the fuse on the wire from the ignition button to the starter solenoid.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Actually Stu the fuse you mention is in the hot (red) wire from the big starter post to the ignition switch according to the Universal diagram. Still fused, different wire.

Chris, when you rewired did you get rid of the dreaded trailer plug(s)?

 

[Anonymous 121765]

Team,

Don't ya just love electrical troubleshooting man?

I ran across an ongoing starting problem I seemed to have for years & FINALLY found the culprit. Old School & Stu gave good advice on items to check & I know you will look into these, but here's something to think about also.

I had a low-level minor starting problem for years. It always seemed to me that the engine starting revs weren't fast enough. Man, I checked everything & could not find the culprit. The engine always started but after being warmed up, starting revs were noticeably even slower, than when cold.

I decided to really check the starter. When I unbolted it, what I found was a buildup of crud on the starter flange & the starter housing on the block. I cleaned both surfaces, bolted it up & went to the try starting it. I remember over the years that by changing out heat exchangers, spraying from my old stuffing box that over time, green water (salt) had sprayed over the starter several times.

I hit the glow plugs, and as soon as I pushed the start button it was "WHOOM".
The engine started immediately like never before, very strong.

My pal a few slips down had similar starting problems on his older 25XP 3 weeks ago. We did the usual troubleshooting, new batteries etc. I told him what I did with mine, and we unbolted his. What we found was that he also had crapped up contact surfaces also. We cleaned them & his engine started just like mine.

I am not saying this is your problem, but might be worth a check. Also remember to check to make sure all your contacts are cleaned. Check the ground cable for any corrosion. It's in a wet environment & it forced me to change it out a few years ago. But, I failed to check the starter at the time.

CR

 

[Team118]

Whew!!!

Ok, I am going to replace the 12awg wiring from the ignition switch to the starter w/ 10awg, just for peace of mind. I did check all of the ground wires when I replaced the ignition switch this June, but I will double check with a keener eye.

When I rewired, I removed the trailer hitch and replaced with a terminal bus mounted behind the galley drawers. There are 2 on this boat, the one directly by the engine is in very good shape, is up high and dry and I have pulled it apart and cleaned it every year. The other one was laying on the hull and collected dirt and grime in the tank area, that's why I went to terminal bar...

I also use marine grade connectors and butt joints with 'preglued' heat shrink, but I will check all of them too...it's been a few years so it wouldn't hurt.

I will pull the starter and give her a check....can't hurt.

Don't forget...I don't have the Universal engine but an Atomic.

Also, when it doesn't start, there is no click or anything. After getting gas yesterday, it wouldn't start at the marina so I hot wired it right up. (I crossed the 2 connections directly on the starter with the key turned on)

We went out on the Lake for the day and to get it started I had to jiggle or finesse the switch just right to get it to catch and start. That is why I thought the last switch was bad. That being said, I just can't believe it's the switch AGAIN after replacing with a new one 2 months ago...it HAS to be a wiring issue.

Thanks
Chris

 

[Charles Erwin]

Switch jiggling to achieve function => switch bogus. This is because switch jiggling cannot effect wiring or connections at a location other than immediately proximate to the switch itself. Searching for the problem other than at the switch will not be helpful.

Charles