Trimming the jib on a bream reach

[KandD]

Out today on a sail and spent the trip on a beam reach but I had trouble getting the tail-tels to fly. I could get the outer ones to fly, but not the inner. We have a 120 genoa hanked on, the winds were about 10 knts. letting out the sails just seemed to increase it's draft without adjusting it's angle to the wind.

 

[Terry411]

Did you move your leads forward? Do you trim to inner jib cars or out on the rail? Off the wind its harder to get them to fly.

 

[djplatt@cogeco.ca]

Try using a whisker pole on the leeward side to move the clew outward. If you have a spinnaker uphaul and downhaul as well you can shape the sail quite effectively.

Did you move your leads forward? Do you trim to inner jib cars or out on the rail? Off the wind its harder to get them to fly.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Move the jib sheet leads forward to pull more downward on the clew; should help close the leech better at the top. Or, if possible, rig a block outboard (on the toe rail) at that forward position and run the sheets through it. The idea is to get the leech coming down more vertically to close the leech and more outboard to reduce the twist at the top.

 

[Joe]

Remember that when you say "beam reach" you're talking about point of sail, which is defined by TRUE wind direction. So if the the wind indicator on the boat is showing 90degree (beam) that is the apparent wind.... and at 10 kts the true wind will be well aft... probably near 120-150.... which makes it a BROAD reach.

The point of this nitpicking is to emphasize that the jib luff telltales are not as usefull down wind as they are upwind. So....... let your speedo and the feel of the boat tell you how you're doing.

Some of the other suggestions will work... closing the leech to create a fuller sail or moving the lead outboard with a pole to open up angle of attack, for instance. But, the point I'm trying to make is that when you're sailing with the apparent wind abeam, at a good clip, then you are actually ripping down wind with the true wind very much aft. If you were on a true beam reach the apparent wind would be well ahead of 90 deg. If that's the case.... never mind. heh, heh.

 

[KandD]

Thanks for the tips, the true wind was 90 degrees to our beam. So that makes since that the letting out the sheet seemed to cause the jib to act the way it did. I wish I had a whisker pole... it's on the dream sheet.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Remember that when you say "beam reach" you're talking about point of sail, which is defined by TRUE wind direction.

Joe, I don't think that is the definition. A "point of sail" is the heading of the boat relative to the wind direction, that's correct; but the true wind direction?-- I don't think so. When the wind is passing over the boat at 90 deg relative to its heading, it's on a beam reach regardless of the true wind direction.

For example, if the boat is sailing close-hauled on 12 kt of true wind and the true wind gusts to 15 kt w/o changing its true direction, and the boat does not change its heading, will it still be sailing close-hauled at that moment? No, otherwise it would not be able to lift to a new close-hauled course provided by the shift of the apparent wind aft.

 

[Joe]

Joe, I don't think that is the definition. A "point of sail" is the heading of the boat relative to the wind direction, that's correct; but the true wind direction?-- I don't think so. When the wind is passing over the boat at 90 deg relative to its heading, it's on a beam reach regardless of the true wind direction.

The wind passing over the boat has nothing to do with point of sail. A point of sail is defined as a boat's DIRECTION or COURSE relative to the wind direction. The wind passing over the boat would only indicate the boat's point of sail if the boat was NOT MOVING. Once if starts moving the wind passing over the boat is called APPARENT WIND.... and that changes depending on the boat's speed and direction.

For example, if the boat is sailing close-hauled on 12 kt of true wind and the true wind gusts to 15 kt w/o changing its true direction, and the boat does not change its heading, will it still be sailing close-hauled at that moment? No, otherwise it would not be able to lift to a new close-hauled course provided by the shift of the apparent wind aft.

Not a good example. When sailing upwind, an increase in windspeed will cause the APPARENT wind direction to move FORWARD, not aft. And even if you are able to sail a bit closer to the wind...... you are still close hauled.... because that point of sail is defined by how close the boat can sail to true wind direction.

If you're on a beam reach, and the windspeed increases. You have two choices... (1) maintain your course (point of sail) and trim the sails in to account for the apparent wind moving forward.... or....(2) bear off (changing course to a broad reach) without changing sail trim and maintaining the same apparent wind direction.

So...... changes in apparent windspeed and direction do not dictate(nor define) a boat's point of sail. The sailor decides that... he either changes direction or changes sail trim.

Finally (I know, whew) you can easily determine your true windspeed by averaging the close hauled compass headings on port and starboard tack. i.e. on port your compass reads 315, on starboard it reads 225.... the average is 270. That's you true wind direction. Now... what is your course? Lets say you move down to 180 or up to 360... that's 90 deg off true wind direction. (speed don't matter) you're on a beam reach.

Now I leave it to you to figure out how to plot a lay line, or whether you're being headed or lifted, or how to determine whose boat is closer to a mark. All of these events are related to true wind direction and your point of sail.

 

[Joe]

Thanks for the tips, the true wind was 90 degrees to our beam. So that makes since that the letting out the sheet seemed to cause the jib to act the way it did. I wish I had a whisker pole... it's on the dream sheet.

If the windward tales are not flowing.... you need to trim IN..., or BEAR OFF. You are too close to the wind, or the wind is in front of the sail.

If the leeward tales are not flowing, you need to let the sail OUT... or HEAD UP. You are too far off the wind, or the wind is not able to reach the leeward side.

Trim toward the tale not flowing.

or

Steer away from the tale not flowing.

 

[Bill Roosa]

I believe what Joe is trying to say is the point of sail is based on the apparent wind and not the true wind direction. To wit, I've never seen a boat sailing close hauled (or any other POS for that matter) to the true wind

 

[FourPoints]

As previously mentioned, a whisker pole will make a huge difference, much more so than any other suggestion here in my opinion...

 

[RichH]

All the posts that recommend using a whisker pole are good ones.

Typically when 'off the wind' a jib will have much too much draft - unless you have a means to 'stretch out' and flatten the foot area as with a whisker pole, etc. This normal 'overdraft' condition will cause the windward tell tales to be either 'drooping down' or 'pointing FORWARD'. An 'overdrafted' sail is always s-l-o-w. Plus, unless you move the jib fairlead tracks forward (to get an even 'break' on the luff), the sail will typically be severely twisted - overtrimmed at the foot and flogging at the head. All this is because the typical boat is too narrow in beam to allow the clew to be properly set 'outboard' when off the wind ... a whiskerpole (or a clubfoot) will allow this.
Cutter rigs whose 'best' point of sail is beam reaching is because they usually have their jibs/headsail on a clubfoot ... a boom for the jib/staysl which keeps the headsail foot section flattened no matter how far off the centerline the clew is carried.

Another 'technique' with a roller furling jib is to reduce sail area but while carefully watching the speedo to show an increase of speed when reducing the sail area.

When racing, its usually against the rules, to carry a jib outboard on the leeward side with a 'pole', unless its a clubfoot or non-removable 'jib-boom' that was included in the OEM design.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Not a good example. When sailing upwind, an increase in windspeed will cause the APPARENT wind direction to move FORWARD, not aft. And even if you are able to sail a bit closer to the wind...... you are still close hauled.... because that point of sail is defined by how close the boat can sail to true wind direction.

Here are the numbers off of US Sailing's Apparent Wind on-line calculator. See below

If sailing @ 6 knots close hauled on a true wind of 12 kt with a true direction of 60 deg off the bow, your apparent wind is: 15.87 kt @ 40.9 deg off the bow (= close-hauled heading).

If sailing now at 6.3 kt on a true wind of 15 kt with the same true wind direction of 60 deg off the bow, your apparent wind is: 18.95 kt @ 43.3 deg off the bow. If the boat does not change its heading, it is close reaching b/c it is no longer close hauled.

I hope we can agree that 43.3 deg is further off the bow than 40.9 deg, so the apparent wind direction has shifted AFT!!! with the increased (a gust) true wind speed which now allows the boat, if sailing close hauled before the increase in the true wind, to come higher to maintain its close-hauled point of sail. Although the true wind direction has not changed at all, the boat has just experienced two points of sail on the same heading-- it was close hauled initially; when the apparent wind shifted aft it was at that moment close reaching. The boat cannot have two different points of sail on the same heading with the same true wind direction if it (true direction) DEFINES the point of sail. I'm sorry, but your POS definition re: the true wind has to be incorrect.

http://www.sailingusa.info/true_wind_calculator.htm

 

[cwkemp]

I have to say, I think the posts attempting to explain the convention of points of sail may have muddied the waters a bit for some of us less seasoned and accomplished sailors. I know I MUST trim my sails to the apparent wind in order to make the best possible forward progress, regardless of course and speed relative to the true wind. Ummm....right?
Clint

 

[Joe]

If sailing @ 6 knots close hauled on a true wind of 12 kt with a true direction of 60 deg off the bow, your apparent wind is: 15.87 kt @ 40.9 deg off the bow (= close-hauled heading).

Sailing at 60 degrees off true is not close hauled. That point of sail would be a close reach.

If sailing now at 6.3 kt on a true wind of 15 kt with the same true wind direction of 60 deg off the bow, your apparent wind is: 18.95 kt @ 43.3 deg off the bow. If the boat does not change its heading, it is close reaching b/c it is no longer close hauled.

I hope we can agree that 43.3 deg is further off the bow than 40.9 deg, so the apparent wind direction has shifted AFT!!! with the increased (a gust) true wind speed which now allows the boat, if sailing close hauled before the increase in the true wind, to come higher to maintain its close-hauled point of sail. Although the true wind direction has not changed at all, the boat has just experienced two points of sail on the same heading-- it was close hauled initially; when the apparent wind shifted aft it was at that moment close reaching. The boat cannot have two different points of sail on the same heading with the same true wind direction if it (true direction) DEFINES the point of sail. I'm sorry, but your POS definition re: the true wind has to be incorrect.

Man... that's one mixed up conglomeration of nonsense. I don't know where to start. In fact I won't because you obviously don't under stand the concept of "points of sail" So... with all due consideration... I implore you to read these two articles:


http://www.sailingusa.info/sail_trim.htm

http://www.learnaboutsailing.com/points_of_sail.asp


Afterwards..... try to go through your scenario again.

 

[Joe]

I have to say, I think the posts attempting to explain the convention of points of sail may have muddied the waters a bit for some of us less seasoned and accomplished sailors. I know I MUST trim my sails to the apparent wind in order to make the best possible forward progress, regardless of course and speed relative to the true wind. Ummm....right?
Clint

Clint... my apologies.... I guess that's why I don't write textbooks. You are entirely correct that we trim sails to apparent wind. What I have been trying to communicate is basic seamanship 101.

"Points of sail are general reference terms used to describe the direction a boat is sailing in relation to its angle to the wind."

And by pure logic... true wind direction defines the point of sail, not apparent wind direction because AW direction is affected by boatspeed and true windspeed changes. Does that make sense?

So...... when you say you are on a close reach, or broad reach you are not talking about the wind direction indicated by your shroud tells, windex, flag etc. because those are apparent wind indicators that you use to trim your sails. That's all.

The most common use of this concept is to develop a set of numbers that describe your boat's "tacking angles" for particular wind speeds. We use this data to help us determine the lay line when sailing towards a mark. We use it to calculate whether we can tack across another boats path, or tell whether we are ahead or behind another boat when sailing to a mark. Cruisers and daysailors use it also. Can they clear the end of the jetty without tacking? What's the best point of sail for a comfortable ride..... all this stuff is relative to the true wind direction, because that most often is the same direction the sea is running....

Clint...... you know this stuff.... because you are a soulful, seasoned sailor. Sorry for the lecture.

Here's a damn good article explantion: http://www.learnaboutsailing.com/points_of_sail.asp

 

[Bill Roosa]

Yes cwkemp we all sail to apparent wind and set our sails to the same. I believe what Joe is trying to describe is elemental vector analysis of true vs. apparent wind. Not sure why he is attempting it though. The only thing you can glean from the true wind direction that is at all useful is the new tack direction. that is to say if the true wind is directly out of the north and I'm beating at 45 degrees with 30 degrees of apparent wind I can assume that I will actually only be able to get to (360-45=) 315 degrees on the other tack and not 45-30-30= 345 degrees using apparent wind angles would lead you to believe. The “tack” button on your raymarine wind instrument will give you that directly.

I find it sufficient to know that
Going to windward
The wind comes forward with increased boat speed
The wind goes aft with increasing wind speed
Or (steer) “up in the puffs and off in the lufts”
Going downwind
the above is reversed either way you care to figure it
or “off in the puffs and up in the lufts”

Being dyslexic I remember the above by noting that going to windward is going “up”wind and the first one starts with “up”

 

[Kings Gambit]

...because you obviously don't under stand the concept of "points of sail"

What, is that a joke? Somebody with 25 yr of sailing and racing experience doesn't know how points of sail work? Actually, I think it is the opposite in this case.

What we've been discussing is the definition of a point of sail. All the material you have referred me to basically says what both of us have been saying--heading of the boat relative to THE WIND direction. Your articles say only "THE WIND." The issue at hand is WHAT WIND? I say it's the APPARENT WIND, you say it is the TRUE WIND. In my definition, "THE WIND" is ALL OF THE WIND that the boat experiences when it is moving. In yours, it's only the wind the boat experiences before it begins moving. In my definition, the POS and the sail trim are directly related; in yours the POS and sail trim are not related (just refer to your own comments above).

If anyone is confused it's someone (you) who doesn't sail enough or is not observant enough to know that a wind gust moves the apparent wind aft if a boat is sailing close hauled (or on any POS except running). I wonder if your boat even has a Windex on it; somehow I doubt it. You are misled by the diagrams which are static, simplified, representations of a sailing concept that an instructor is trying to present to a beginner student; in practice it's more complicated than that. Nevertheless, you cannot even interpret them. You're saying that if a sailing vessel is trimmed for wind coming at 90 deg abeam (i.e., where the diagram clearly says "beam reach"), it's really not a beam reach; it's really a broad reach b/c the true wind must be coming from a greater angle? That, in my opinion is nonsensical.

 

[Todd Smith]

What authority defines "points of sail" as true instead of apparent wind ?

Points of sail are faily broad and inprecise terms, so there seems to be no need to pick hairs on it. If you want precision you state "120 deg AWA" or "150 deg TWA".

Todd

 

[Cayennita]

The book on racing rules changed in 1996 where the pole can be carried. It is, and has been legal to carry the pole and the boom on the same side. If you have a non-adjustable pole and it is too long for the jib, you can adjust the length needed by using and outboard line connected to the clew to pull aft and the windward sheet to pull in. The regular sheet will keep the clew against the pole while easing the outside line. You can move the clew anywhere along the pole until you have the equivalent of a club footed jib.