Trimming the in-boom furling main

[GeorgeK]

Hi Don.

I have a Leisure Furl in-boom furling main on my Hunter 430. Do you have and advice or references regarding trimming this type of main? The learning curve is deeper than the draft! Thanks.

 

[Stu Jackson]

You might start with this until Don replies: http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=134946

 

[Don Guillette]

George: As Stu suggests there's a ton of info on the subject in the very recent thread he directed you to. Please review that thread to see if it helps solve your problem. If not, or if you can add any suggestions, please fire away.

 

[GeorgeK]

Thanks for the link, guys. Actually there is a great deal of difference between the loose-footed in-mast furling main described there, and my in-boom furling main. For instance, mine is firmly tied to the boom mandril, and is thus not loose-footed, and there is a lack of an out-haul in my setup. Another thing is that my main is fully battened.

George

 

[Stu Jackson]

George, sorry I completely missed the in boom. Not like you didn't mention it twice. Boy, I feel really stupid.

 

[Don Guillette]

George: I honestly don't know what to tell you as I'm completely unfamiliar with your setup. I've never seen or sailed your setup --- but I'd sure like to to see how it functions.

In general and especially with the large mainsail area involved with on a 43' boat, I don't know how one sails the thing without an outhaul. How do you adjust the draft depth? Additionally, the outhaul is one of the sail trim controls used to also adjust draft position.

Alan is the resident expert on Hunters. Hopefully, he'll chime in. Are there any Hunter owners out there with this type of rig that can help George?

 

[rstewart]

In-Boom Furling

I have the Schaeffer in-boom furler installed by the prior owner. It works well but sail adjustments are limited with in-boom furling. The horizontal battens maintain sail shape well, but I suspect the sail may be a little flat to allow the battens to enter the slot in the furler. The outhaul is fixed and not adjustable. It has a rigid boomvang which is always at 87 1/2 degrees. Once set, it is not adjustable. That means the boom does not rise or fall as the traveler is moved across. The boom angle always stays the same. This effectively takes the traveler out of play except when you pull it all the way across to windward to move the boom to center in order to point higher. Allowing the traveler to go to leeward to reduce heeling does not change anything. The counter to all this is it can be reefed to any amount desired.

I'd be interested to here about other experiences with in-boom furling and any adjustment tips.

Rick Stewart
s/v Moon Eye
C380, #51

 

[Don Guillette]

Re: In-Boom Furling

Rick: This is getting worse by the minute, from a sail trim standpoint. Now I see GeorgeK's problem but I've never sailed on a boat with in boom furling.

Speaking generally, which is all I can do, the outhaul is not in play so draft depth can't be adjusted. Next the rigid vang can't be adjusted either. The vang is the primary sail trim control to adjust TWIST and since it's fixed, twist can't be adjusted.

There are 5 sail trim controls used to adjust DRAFT POSITION and they are the vang, cunnigham/halyard, mainsheet, mast bend and outhaul. The outhaul is not in play and neither is the vang and you can't bend (bend not rake) the mast. There's not much left with which to adjust draft position.

So adjusting twist, draft depth and draft position are problems (that's 3 out of 4 of the "4 elements of sail trim") and that leaves only ANGLE OF ATTACK. The traveler ONLY adjust angle of attack and does not adjust the other 3 elements.

When you drop the traveler from the center position does the boat slow down, as one would expect, or does it still keep trucking along at the same speed?

I know I'm not understanding this mainsail because it seems to me you just "set it and forget it" from a mainsail trim standpoint. Actually you don't personally "set it and forget it" - the mainsail did it by its self.

 

[sogin]

The Leisure Furl site http://www.forespar.com/leisurefurl
Addresses some of these issues but I do not know if their claims "hold water". We have just ordered a Leisure Furling boom for a new Sabre 426 because we think it will be an improvement over in mast furling. At our age, we no longer think we can effectively handle traditional rigs in heavy air. I have pasted in a few FAQs from the Leisurefurl site

How do you control foot shape without an outhaul?
When the furling spindle is rotated, the fullness is pulled out by taking up on the center of the sail before taking up on the tack & clew. As the spindle rotates further, the clew is continually pulled aft keeping the foot tight.

What about luff tension?
With the halyard locked off, the furling control line can tension the luff the same as would a cunningham.

Can you still get good sail shape when reefed?
Absolutely! As the battens roll around the furling spindle, they flatten the sail along the foot. The upper battens are still helping to shape the sail.

They also provide several videos that seem to backup their claims. I realize it may be difficult know whether to trust these claims without field testing. I would be interested in Don's reactions to the videos and FAQs.

 

[Don Guillette]

Sogin: I visited the site you highlighted and watched the video. First of all, I'm no expert and I'm not an engineer. I'm just a common seaman who knows how all the sail trim controls for the main and jib work and who knows how to use the controls to get 100% efficiency out of most boats. 100% efficiency varies by boat and sail setup so 100% efficiency is a nebulous term. In other words, I used to sail with a dock neighbor on a live aboard Newport 30. The boat could hardly get out of it's own way but she gave us everything she had.

The first thing that struck me is they open the video by calling the system a FURLING & REEFING SYSTEM. One of their criteria in the development of the product was "to retain efficiency at all points of sail". During the reefing process they state the "sail retains a perfect shape". They state "the system does not compromise performance". Those are all general statement.

If a boat owner is interested in a system that's simple to use then this will work nicely. Addditionally, if the boat owner has a mast head rig, where the engine is the jib then this system will work. A fractional rig, where the engine is the mainsail, might be another story. If the boat owner is a "set it & forget it" sailor then this system will work.

On the other hand, if the boat owner enjoys tweeking his sails or participating in beer can racing, this system won't work because virtually all the sail trim controls for the mainsail that are used to adjust the shape and set of the sail have been eliminated. I don't know how you "maintain a pefect shape" and "don't compromise performance" without the use of sail trim conrols.

foot shape without the outhaul - the outhaul controls more than the foot of the sail. It appears a LITTLE draft depth is built into the sail and by rolling the sail up you can take what little draft depth there is out of the sail and thats true. Here's a scenario - in So Ca the winds are very light in the morning so I'd want to stat out with a flat sail. As the winds pipe up I'd want to induce draft depth up to a max of 25%. I guess I'd just have to roll and unroll the sail.

I think the bottom line is a sailor needs to decide what works best for the type of sailing he does.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Well put, Don. It's a boat. There are tradeoffs. I'd be really interested if there's anyone out there with in-boom furling/reefing that does race in beer cans. I'd betcha there are.

 

[Don Guillette]

Stu: Yup, but I can't take that bet because there are probably some that race with this type of a rig. If Alan was sailing his Hunter against a Hunter with the type of rig we're discussing and sizing up the fleet in his pre-start, he'd dismiss that boat immediately and concentrate on the other competitors - I would.

I always checked out the boats ahead of me to see if it was "going to be a long day". If the type of rig we're discussing got the jump on me I'd think to myself "it's just going to be a matter of time" before we pass that boat.

I really don't want to diminish this type of rig because folks probably spent a ton of money on it and it's not up to me to rain on their system, plus I don't want to get a letter from Forespar asking me where I'm coming from. All I'm doing is offering my opinion, for what it's worth, which I was asked to give by one of their customers. If a mate merely wants to "roll the main up the mast and roll out the jib" and be happy with the fact the boat moves through the water and wants to be able to reef easily and quickly then this would be a good system for them to buy.

Personally, I like to mess with all the sail trim controls and wish there were more of them for me to play with. A few sailors over the years have said I was too anal and I should just enjoy the boat for what it is. Fooling around with the controls is my form of enjoyment. Additionally, the name of this forum is the SAIL TRIM forum not the "set it and forget it" forum. If it was the "set it and forget it" forum there wouldn't be much to talk about.

 

[GeorgeK]

Thanks for all the input, guys.

On this rig, there is a spring-loaded boom vang that IS adjustable. Also, with boom-end sheeting and the main sheet attached to the traveler which is at the top of the arch, the main sheet IS the control for angle of attack except when sailing fairly close to the wind, when it becomes the twist control, and then the traveler comes into play. Except for then, the traveler is "on vacation" most of the time, at least in my hands. Some H430s were even delivered with no traveler at all installed.

Leisure-furl says that by tightening the boom furler, against a fixed halyard, it "acts as" an outhaul, but I really don't see that as very effective....that's why I began this thread. It definitely tightens the luff of the sail, but no more than does the halyard itself would. My problem really relates to the draft depth and draft position control.
Let me add that the reason we installed this boom furler was that there seems to be a design error in the H430 mast location, so that it very hard to minimize weather helm without reefing, except in very light air. The factory single-line reefing system was a night mare. We even had the new sail cut with less roach than the original. With the in-boom furler I can "dial in" a little or a lot of reefing as needed, keeping the full battens working, but maybe there is too much trade-off on sail handling otherwise.

 

[Sam Salter]

Friend of mine has a Catalina 38 with Seldan (I think) in boom furling. He lives on the boat on the west coast - Sidney.
The vang is fixed; no outhaul. There is a traveller, mainsheet and main halyard.
he sails a lot single handed; I've sailed with him quite a bit.
There's not too much you can tweak on this system and it can get pretty frustrating. However, I am prepared to concede that it is ideal when most of the sailing is done single handed. You just have to be prepared to sacrifice quite a bit of sail trim control for ease of use - but I think I might buy a powerboat if I had to go down that path!