Trim Trouble

[YVRguy]

Posted this in the sail trim forum but trying here too...

Ok, perhaps this falls under the heading of "you just need experience" but I'm hoping to better understand what I'm doing wrong.

When I take my Hunter 34 out in medium to heavy air - even just 15kts, I can't seem to get comfortable upwind. I often find that my sails luff heavily even when sheeted in a fair amount. When I try to sheet them in further I start heeling too much and get quite a bit of weather helm. When I let them out a bit they start to luff again. So in heavy air, this is what I live with... Either scary amounts of heel or a constantly luffing headsail. I generally live with the luffing because I'm scared of a knockdown or I'm concerned for the comfort of my guest(s). Any thoughts?

Secondly, in my bay, the wind normally blows directly in. If I want to get out of the bay I need to do several tacks. Some days this is no problem but on others it seems like I'm almost having to tack 180 degrees. The weird thing is, my windex indicates I'm close hauled in both directions. How can this be?? I've heard the expression that the wind is always on your nose wherever you have to go but in my case it seems true.

Any thoughts/help is appreciated.

 

[jimmyb]

Not knowing how your boat is being trimmed for the conditions you describe other than the mainsheet adjustment I would say if your sail trim and traveler are correctly set for moderate to heavier air and your rig is tuned properly then REEF. If nothing else it will put her back on her feet so you can save you sails until you figure out the rest. Im no expert but I would not want my sails flailing for long, Im sure they are expensive for your rig.

Don't rely too heavily on the windex. Learn to sail without it as well. You will appreciate it when it is rendered useless by a big bird or spider webs ect.

Finally read some trim books and play with all your sail controls until you know EXACTLY what each one does and why it does it.

jimmyb

 

[Paul Mermelstein]

A lot depends on your rig, but I have a couple of suggestions. Also, when you say weather helm, that is not the same thing as excessive heeling. Many people get the two mixed up, but weather helm is when the boat is powered windward in the gusts. The boat TURNS into the wind, which actually reduces heel, but has other consequences like slowing the boat, luffing sails, etc.

A couple of things to try:
1. If you have a traveler, use it. Let it down (leeward) in heavier air and in the gusts.
2. Let out the mainsheet but keep the jibsheet tight, see if you still have weather helm.
3. If so, start reefing. If you have a roller headsail, start with the jib.
4. As wind builds, reef the main.

That said, the sequence of reefing (jib first or main first) depends upon your boat, preferences, and ease of reefing the main. Hunters are often powered by the main more than the jib, so try the traveler and mainsheet approach first.

 

[YVRguy]

Thanks for these comments. On a related note, any thoughts on how much heel is too much? After 25 degrees I get a bit uncomfortable.

 

[jimmyb]

Running the boat with excessive heal can make for some great action shots in video and film and it is fun to push the boat sometimes for the thrill and adrenaline rush that goes with it but from all accounts I have read will not push the boat any faster than sailing the boat as designed in fact many times it inhibits performance. Every design will have a sweet spot and that you can determine by sailing the boat under different angles and noting your speed. Our little boat performs best with a moderate amount of heel.

I would simply sail her at your comfort level or at the level of others aboard. After all sailing should be an enjoyable experience. That is difficult if you are white knuckled all the time worrying about getting knocked down. If you are entertaining non sailing guests there is no better way to chase them off from enjoying time aboard like running the boat beyond their comfort level. So if you like a nice controlled sailing attitude set your rig as such and sit back, relax and enjoy the sail. After all your the Captain. :dance:

jimmyb

 

[shemandr]

With regard to the Hunter's with the B&R rig, 15 Kts. upwind is a little above moderate. Remember you many add 6 Kts. of apparent wind and you are sailing in 21 kts. I found with my 356 that is best done with a reef. If you have guests and you don't want to scare the bejeebers out of them, reef aggressively.
Yes, it's true that some boats sail comfortably upwind in 15 kts., but they are different boats. Your sails may be tired, the rigging too stretchy, and you have no backstay to limit sag in the forestay. All of these conspire to increase drag, heel and cause poor upwind performance. You can buy new sails, replace running rigging with super low stretch lines and the boat will sail markedly better. But reefing is what you can do tomorrow.
You didn't say if you have a roller reefing main but if you do, I found that replacing the outhaul with a quality very low stretch line paid off. When a gust would hit the boat would heel a bit, and the come up and accelerate. Very satisfying. The sail itself would stretch but I wasn't going to buy new sails so that was it.

 

[dlandersson]

Thank you.

I know that 15 knots is above my comfort level.

 

[foolproof]

Don't worry about getting knocked down, and keep one thing in mind: the more the boat heels, 2 things happen. 1) the sails will spill air out as the mast moves away from vertical, thereby depowering themselves "automatically". 2) the keel moves away from vertical, and, at 4000 or 5000 lbs it REALLY wants to hang straight down.

These two things together give the boat its' sweet spot. With the right constant wind the sails dump some lift and the keel is trying to pull the boat back to level. The two forces will find a harmony and you wind up at a constant heel.

A knock down should only happen in a VERY strong wind (like 80+ knots) or in a huge wave situation...it won't happen in 15 to 25 knots, I swear!

As for the excessive weather helm, you might try adjusting the rake of the mast. My Catalina 30 had the same problem when I first sailed her; i wound up tensioning the aft stay a bit, and now the boat is VERY well balanced. It still tends to weather a bit in a heavy gust (which is good), and has no tendency to a lee helm.

Your jib luff problem may be due to having the sheet traveler too far forward if you have a genoa up. If so, the sheet tends to pull the sail down more than it pulls it aft, which will give it a lot of curve along the foot, when it should be flatter when close hauled. If it is really "baggy", it won't point upwind very well because of the luffing. Remember that the jib sheet pulls the sail aft AND down at the same time, and you can adjust the percentages by moving the sheet block fore or aft.

I have a 150 genny on my boat, and have to move the sheet block way aft on the track when the sail is fully unfurled, and way forward when I furl it in a bit, which keeps it flat at all times.

 

[YVRguy]

Thanks folks - useful information all.

 

[Meriachee]

A knockdown can happen to any water ballast boat at 15kts. Our old Mac26c used to wind up on its butt every time a seagull went by, but it was fast, and it was fun, and I have pictures of the new Catalina "looking for wind" beside a Mac26c, that is way, way over.

 

[capt_clyde]

My best advice is to buy Don Guillett's "Sail Trim Charts" and "Sail Trim Users Guide." I bought them last spring and have put the info to use with great success. I can't say enough good things about them. Go to the top of this page and click on the link. It's money well spent!

How much success, you ask? Well, for years I've participated in the Yacht Clubs Thursday evening races and have been perennially at the back of the pack in cruising class, usually last and often getting passed by smaller boats. This year, since studying Don's book and charts we are usually in the middle of the fleet and last time out we won cruising class AND took line honors.

 

[Don Guillette]

capt_clyde: I'm glad you're pleased with your racing results -- who wouldn't be!! One of my guarantees is that if you study my stuff and put it into practice, and rocket science material it ain't, you'll move up at least 3 race positions. There are many testimonials from satisfied racers and cruiser stating that in my book and now i can add you to the list.