I'm an avid user of your book, but there are some questions that it does not address, pertaining particularly to the larger Hunters with arches. Many of the 430s and maybe some of the other boats didn't even come with travelers, and it took me a while to figure out why. My boat does have a traveler, but it is short, located on top of the arch, and is only about a foot below the aft end of the boom. Due to the geometry of this setup, the main sheet perform traveler duties except when quite close hauled, as that is the only time it pulls downward. Otherwise the sheet is relatively horizontal, and "acts" as a traveler. I have to use the vang to control the twist in most situations except close hauled. The traveler and sheet only work in a conventional manner over a limited range of relative wind angle. It still confuses me, and I would like your ideas regarding how better to use this setup. (BTW, it's a fractional rig). The boat was so overpowered with the huge main and small jib that the weather helm was almost uncontrollable, with the rudder on the verge of a stall much of the time, and the single line reefing system was a total mess. I am just now completing the installation of a Leisure Furl reefing boom, with a flatter sail. I hope that by having essentially infinate reefing positions that I will be able to "fine-tune" the helm. I'm hoping that this will be worth the huge expense, as in the back of my mind I'm wondering if the problem was due to lousy technique. I'd appreciate your thoughts on this too. Help me to understand this... the jib balances the main, but if there is too much heel and weather helm, shouldn't powering up the jib to balance the main at the same time introduce more heel as well? Many thanks. Regards, George Kornreich
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George Kornreich: I’m glad you are finding my book useful. Some times I wonder if the folks that design boats ever sail them! I think they design things to be cosmetically pleasing but not very functional from a sail trim standpoint. For example, the curved traveler track on a Catalina 30 is pleasing to look at but stinks from a functional stand point. Part of my problem in answering your question is that I’ve never sailed on a Hunter fractional rig. There is a Hunter 326 on my dock but I’ve never met or even seen the owner. I did check out the traveler system on his boat today and noticed some differences compared to mine. For example, my Garhauer straight track traveler on my Catalina 30 has 6’ of actual side to side car movement. The Hunter 326 has 4’9”. That may not sound like a lot of difference but from an angle of attack standpoint it is. That being said, so we are short there. The two sail trim controls for ANGLE OF ATTACK are the mainsheet and traveler and they work together. The traveler has nothing to do with changing the shape of the sail but the mainsheet does. Unfortunately, once the boom goes over the side of the boat the mainsheet loses its effectiveness because of the pulling angle but as you crank in on it and apply boom vang, your taking twist out of the top of the sail making it much more powerful. The more you crank the more powerful it gets. Try leaving the mainsheet alone and only use the traveler. Another part of the problem as to why the boat is heeling is the short traveler. One of the quickest way to get a boat back on its feet is to drop the traveler. This is a very simplistic description of how the jib and main work. The jib wants you to fall off and the main wants you to head up. The main acts like a giant rudder. They both work together to keep the boat on its feet. It is a shame you have to reduce mainsail area to get your boat to sail comfortably. How do you handle jib trim? I assume you have it set up for optimum power to counter act the force of the main. On a fractional rig, the engine is the main. On a masthead rig, it’s the jib. I don’t think your problems are lousy technique. I think your problems have more to do with the sail trim system. George, I don’t know how much I’ve help you. If my answers have given rise to other questions please let me know. Hopefully, I’ll get to sail one of these Hunters so I can get firsthand knowledge.
George, One Thing To Consider (cc: Don)
.. is that you may be overtrimming the main. I had a Vision 32 that just had a blade for a jib. I noticed that, compared to a masthead rig, I always had my main out quite a bit further than anyone around me. I suppose it has to do with the slot a big genny creates. On my 40.5, which is fractional but less main than yours, I do trim in more than the Vision, but still less than a masthead. Rick D.
.. is that you may be overtrimming the main. I had a Vision 32 that just had a blade for a jib. I noticed that, compared to a masthead rig, I always had my main out quite a bit further than anyone around me. I suppose it has to do with the slot a big genny creates. On my 40.5, which is fractional but less main than yours, I do trim in more than the Vision, but still less than a masthead. Rick D.
430 Weatherhelm
George, When we first acquired our 430 the wheatherhelm was horrific. I took out most of the rake/bend in the mast. What a great improvement. The best $200 I've spent on the boat to date. Now we have 4 to 5 degrees of weatherhem. The sails are nicely balanced. I share your concern with the short traveller track on the 430, but it works well when you are close hauled. Peter milne S/V Blue Heron
George, When we first acquired our 430 the wheatherhelm was horrific. I took out most of the rake/bend in the mast. What a great improvement. The best $200 I've spent on the boat to date. Now we have 4 to 5 degrees of weatherhem. The sails are nicely balanced. I share your concern with the short traveller track on the 430, but it works well when you are close hauled. Peter milne S/V Blue Heron
Thanks for the ideas, guys
I think one of the problems is the height of the traveler track. Being on the top of the arch, it's above head-height, and only a foot below the aft end of the boom. With this geometry, once the aft end of the boom is off centerline by only a foot or two, the direction of pull of the sheet is almost horizontal, so the sheet and the traveler have almost the same effect in most positions except close hauled. I did check the rake angle of the mast long ago and it had only about 8 inches of rake. We reduced this a few inches with little effect. Now, if we could only move the mast step forward..... Don, I realize that you can steer a boat with jib and main, but doesn't the jib, while helping to counteract the main and help to head off (reducing helm angle), at the same time contribute to heel (and increasing helm)just by the windage effect? Seems to me it might have two opposing effects and the net result would be the sum or difference of the two. What really happens here???
I think one of the problems is the height of the traveler track. Being on the top of the arch, it's above head-height, and only a foot below the aft end of the boom. With this geometry, once the aft end of the boom is off centerline by only a foot or two, the direction of pull of the sheet is almost horizontal, so the sheet and the traveler have almost the same effect in most positions except close hauled. I did check the rake angle of the mast long ago and it had only about 8 inches of rake. We reduced this a few inches with little effect. Now, if we could only move the mast step forward..... Don, I realize that you can steer a boat with jib and main, but doesn't the jib, while helping to counteract the main and help to head off (reducing helm angle), at the same time contribute to heel (and increasing helm)just by the windage effect? Seems to me it might have two opposing effects and the net result would be the sum or difference of the two. What really happens here???
George: Generally, you trim the jib as your main driving force and the main is trimmed for balance. That’s how it is for a masthead rig boat. It is a little different with the fractional rig. The masthead rig boat is easy to tune but is actually less tunable than a fractional rig (America Cup boats are fractional for that very reason), but the fractional rig is more demanding to tune and more difficult to maintain the tune. In other words, you need all the sail trim controls available and they have to work properly.or your going to have problems. We’ve already discussed the short comings of your traveler system. The jib and the mainsail have to be viewed as an entire wing. Their functions don’t work against each other, they actually overlap. Both sails have to look like they are in harmony and the leech of the main and the jib should match. Watch how the America Cup main and jib look – they look like a matched pair. Boats heel and have weather helm because of a couple of things: center of effort (CE), center of lateral resistance (CLR) and lift. If you want to know more about CE and CLR then review a book like “Sail Like A Champion” by Dennis Conners. If the CE is behind the CLR, in other words the boat is not balanced properly, you’ll get weather helm. I can’t believe the Hunter is balanced improperly. Here’s how lift effects heel. If the boat sails straight then the same amount of lift is on both sides of the boat. If the boat heels to starboard, the starboard side becomes longer than the port side. Unequal lift is developed and the boat wants to turn into the wind. It starts to heel over and the more it heels, the more weather helm is produced. The traveler controls the angle of the mainsail to the center of the boat and to the wind. Obviously, this angle has a large effect on the helm. Most of the power exerted on the main is side power so if you don’t adjust this power some how, the boat is going to heel over because its overpowered. You could depower the main by bending the mast, opening the leech, easing the sheet, dumping the traveler or finally reefing. Unfortunately, some of these controls are either not on the boat or inefficient by design (traveler). Some how I don’t think I’ve been much help to you but at least you have an idea of the principles of why heeling and weather helm are present with your boat. Again, I’d love to sail on one of these Hunters so I could see for myself what is happening.
Consider this an invitation!
Don, I'd love to have you sail on our boat if your travels ever bring you to Houston. Maybe we could figure out a thing or two. George
Don, I'd love to have you sail on our boat if your travels ever bring you to Houston. Maybe we could figure out a thing or two. George
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