Traveler

[Don Guillette]

I trawl the various groups on this site looking for topic that I think will be useful. The winter months are slow but every once in a while I find one.

I think most sail trim forum listers are pretty astute about sail trim and the info they provide is pretty much spot on. In other words, lister get the straight sail trim scoop here as oppossed to what is given elsewhere.

I think most newbie sail trim forum lister can answer the following questions, so let's see. Suppose you're talking to your dock neighbor about the traveler and he tells you he only uses the traveler to adjust TWIST. Is he correct and what example could you use to prove your point?

Suppose he told you he sets the traveler on the center line and doesn't move it except when he sailing down wind. What aspect (draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack) of sail trim adjustment is he missing?

 

[tomgrigsby]

Use sheet to set twist. Use traveller to control blade/AoA. Sheet pulls down on boom to tighten leech and reduce twist. Use traveller to adjust angle of saill to the wind.

 

[geehaw]

Well being a new sailor I would have to agree with Tomgrisby. But add, the vang also,if boat is so equipped, controls twist with sheet being secondary? And not wanting to steel this thread but.... What advantage does the traveler have controlling AoA over main sheet? If you have a vang controlling twist doesn't adjusting the sheet do same thing?

 

[Joe]

Well being a new sailor I would have to agree with Tomgrisby. But add, the vang also,if boat is so equipped, controls twist with sheet being secondary? And not wanting to steel this thread but.... What advantage does the traveler have controlling AoA over main sheet? If you have a vang controlling twist doesn't adjusting the sheet do same thing?

The traveller allows you to maintain twist when changing angle of attack. If you set twist with the vang on a close reach, then head up to closehauled and try to move the boom to center with the mainsheet, the sheet will overide the vang, altering the desired twist.... i.e. it closes the leech...the only way the immobile sheet will hold the boom on center is with a lot of vertical force. Also, when the boom is a foot or so near center, the mainsheet pulls down way more than sideways.... thus every adjustment affects twist

With a traveller, you can set the mainsheet's downward force anywhere along the track.... this allows many more trim options... you can't do that with vang only... because all it does is keep the boom from rising... that's why it is sometimes called a "kicking strap".

 

[DeniseO30]

taking it to windward is useful at times

 

[FourPoints]

Well being a new sailor I would have to agree with Tomgrisby. But add, the vang also,if boat is so equipped, controls twist with sheet being secondary? And not wanting to steel this thread but.... What advantage does the traveler have controlling AoA over main sheet? If you have a vang controlling twist doesn't adjusting the sheet do same thing?

Joe's answer is spot on, but I wanted to expand on one part. In a perfect world, the sheet would never affect twist, only AoA, and only impart a lateral force on the boom, and all twist / horizontal force would come from the vang. Since we know that every boat is a compromise, and we don't live in a perfect world, that isn't the case. A traveler is the way we attempt to get closer to that ideal setup.

 

[Don Guillette]

Here's an analogy regarding the traveler I use at sail trim seminars which seems to work --- anyway people nod their heads like they get it. I've used it many times on this forum.

The primary function of the traveler is to adjust angle of attack. Picture a screen door that has a pin in the corner that rides in a track on the ground. When you open and close the screen door does the shape of the screen change -- obviously it doesn't. It's the same with the mainsail. When you crank the traveler car from side to side the shape of the mainsail doesn't change and that's why I prefer it over the mainsheet.

When a boat is hit by a gust some sailors prefer to use the mainsheet to bring the boat back on its feet. The problem with that is the mainsheet is also one of the sail trim controls that adjust draft position and twist and I'm not interested in adjusting those elements --- all I want to do is bring the boat back on its feet.

When I'm hit by a gust and the boat heels over I merely drop the traveler and the boat rights itself. When the gust passes I put the traveler back to its original position and sail on my merry way.

Getting back to the original question -- when your dock neighbor tells you he uses the traveler to adjust twist your first thought should be I don't think so. If he's a good friend use the screen door example.

If he tells you that he leaves the traveler center at all times don't listen to any of his sail trim ideas!!!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Don's screen door analogy is perfect.

Also, consider that dumping the mainsheet makes it a LOT of work to get back into the sail trim you had before you dumped it. With the traveler, it's a LOT easier to get back to where you started. A LOT easier.

 

[geehaw]

Well thanks, those were good explanations and made me under stand it. I can see how a good traveler works in gusts. Maybe one day I will be able to get one. The one I have is almost impossible to adjust under tension so impossible to move just for a gust.

 

[Calif. Ted]

When I'm hit by a gust and the boat heels over I merely drop the traveler and the boat rights itself. When the gust passes I put the traveler back to its original position and sail on my merry way.

Used this technique recently while crewing on a 36' boat, on the windward leg captain had me watch the inclinometer and keep us at 20-25 degrees by working the traveller. Worked well in the conditions where the short gusts would have been overpowering us. This was a first for me where the traveller becomes constantly in play and is the primary sail control being used. Skipper called it "traveller sheeting", seems a technique for when you got plenty of breeze and are trying to stay on the sharpest edge.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I still disagree ... if you have a soft vang, it (the vang) isn't very effective with close-sheeting. So you have to position the traveler in conjuction with the main sheet to get the right twist for the wind conditions. As it was pointed out, if you need twist in the mainsail on a close haul, you have to bring the traveler to windward and ease the main sheet to let the boom down to centerline and give some twist in the sail. If you want to blade the sail out without twist then you would move the traveler to centerline and crank in on the main sheet, so the traveler is intimately involved in establishing twist when you are close hauled or close reach. Of course that changes when you move the boom past the range of the traveler, then the vang has to take over.

I also think the size of the boat makes some difference. I still find it far easier to ease the mainsheet in a gust than dump the traveler. Just the mechanics of it is easier because my mainsheet isn't on a clutch, but a cam cleat instead.

Stu, why does easing the main sheet create more work? When I ease the sheet instead of dumping the traveler, all I have to do is haul it back in. Twist, draft depth, draft position, as well as AoA all go back to the way it was before, automatically. There is no more work than is involved with dumping the traveler and then raising it again .... in fact, it is less work. With my traveler set-up, I have 2 lines on separate cam cleats that have to be monkeyed with, otherwise the traveler ends up in a snarl of slack line on the leeward side. I don't have that mess with the mainsheet, just one line ... easy out, easy in.

The other factor, when I ease the mainsheet, admittedly, the sail twists, which is good for high wind gusts ... it depowers. I know the argument is that draft increases which aggrevates the heeling, but, honestly, easing the mainsheet affects the AoA far more than draft, so I think the draft isn't worth considering. Rich once explained that in the pitching conditions of waves, by easing the sheet the increase in twist which depowers is less important than the increase in draft, which powers because of the way the top of the mast pitches forward and aft anyway. I can buy that, but in flat water, I don't buy it. Besides that, if you are using your vang properly, easing the sheet shouldn't affect the twist or draft, anyway. That's vang sheeting, and your screen door would swing the same way even if you used the mainsheet instead of the traveler to adjust AoA. I still find it better to ease the sheet than dump the traveler in gusts ... it's far more controlled and more speedily adapted in my experience.

 

[Don Guillette]

Scott: I don't see you post as disagreeing -- you're just suggesting another way to get the job done. There are two sail trim controls used to adjust angle of attack and the primary one, and in my opinion the easiest, is the traveler. The secondary one is the mainsheet. The same applies to twist. The primary control is the boom vang and the secondary is the mainsheet. Draft depth is another one -- the primary control is the outhaul and if a boat had a "bendy" mast a sailor could bend the mast.

A mate has to use the sail trim control that works for him/her. My C30 had the curved track traveler which was difficult to deal with -- a person (sailor) will use what's easy and not's what hard because it's human nature. My traveler was hard to work with so I used the mainsheet. Same with the pin type fairleads. When I replaced the curved track traveler with the Garhauer straight track and the pin type fairleads with the Garhauer adjustable system my sail trim life became much better.

In my case, using the Garhauer straight track traveler is much easier than using the mainsheet.

As always, lister on this forum should try all methods suggested and see which works for them.

 

[Stu Jackson]

1. I also think the size of the boat makes some difference. I still find it far easier to ease the mainsheet in a gust than dump the traveler. Just the mechanics of it is easier because my mainsheet isn't on a clutch, but a cam cleat instead.

2. Stu, why does easing the main sheet create more work? When I ease the sheet instead of dumping the traveler, all I have to do is haul it back in.

Scott, #1 answers #2!

You're right, on my C25, using the mainsheet was the way to go, 'cuz we had that cam cleat on the tackle for the mainsheet with boom end sheeting and a tiller.

On our much larger C34, the mainsheet is mid-boom, the mainsheet comes through an open-when-sailing sheetstopper and "lives" on the cabintop winch. That's why it's much easier for me to dump the traveler than the mainsheet.

Thanks for pointing that out, and in the future, when this subject comes up as it will again, I'll be sure to note the differences in boat sizes and types of mainsheet arrangements.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Yes, there are different ways to skin a cat. Also, I think that it very much depends on what you are actually trying to accomplish. Ted gave a perfect example for why "traveler sheeting" works for their application. The captain wants the trimmer to maintain the shape of the sail while only varying AoA for changeable conditions.

But my reasons go a little bit beyond the ease factor, and it is based on my observations about how the boat performs in our locale. As most sailors know, lake sailing is often a lot different than sailing on open bodies of water. Gusts and wind shifts are usually more pronounced because of the effects of terrain, and the water is flat, so maintaining power settings are not as important. If I was adapting sail trim on an open body of water, I would surely be more inclined to want my sail shape to be constant while adjusting AoA for subtle changes in the wind speed and direction. I think that the affects of waves would place a priority on keeping the power settings of draft depth and draft position at a constant to keep punching thru the waves.

Because I'm on a lake, I find that when I play the mainsheet in gusts I get better acceleration. I can ease the sheet which does two things at once to depower the sail, spills more wind from the head of the sail and spills wind by changing AoA. But here's the difference ... I only have to make a small adjustment because I'm doing both. I only have to let the boom to leeward a little with the mainsheet rather than alot with the traveler, because depowering the head of the sail is also making a difference in my case. In fact, it's better because the gust is now giving me a lift (because apparent wind moves back) while at the same time I'm keeping the boat on her feet. So instead of luffing the main, I'm getting a lift because I'm depowering the head of the sail and not radically moving AoA. This makes a big difference when gusts come on very rapidly and leave just as fast, because my adaptations are far more subtle with the mainsheet than they would be with the traveler. Besides, when the gust has passed, I just haul in the sheet and all pre-determined positions of draft, depth and twist go back to normal.

(I would have to acknowledge that sailing SF Bay has to be an all new eye-opening experience in gusts and wind shifts though!)

 

[RichH]

I 'think' Don's original statement is for 'normal' sailing conditions and make the presumption that his intention was not what do you do with the traveller, etc. for SURVIVAL ... a completely different situation than when setting 'twist' to get the 'maximum' out of a sail so that all the telltales are flying well, the sail isnt 'cross controlled', etc. when the wind is blowing between 0 and 15kts. I dont think that he intended to include 'stretchy' vangs, etc. Just the elemental 'meat and potatoes' of traveller usage to maintain sail SHAPE thus good 'trim' during normal conditions.

If my assumptions are correct ..... then perhaps we can get back to the 'basics' of traveller usage during 'normal' sailing conditions and why such is important to use a traveller, and not keep it 'pinned' to the boats centerline.

Hint: it has something to do with keeping the tack angle of the mainsail constant --- the angle that the top of the boom makes with the mast at the gooseneck .... so that the 'as-designed' shape stays somewhat constant no matter how far the boom is swung from the boats centerline.

Your turn .........

Don, do you agree? If not, then I apologize for 'butting in'.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Yeah, I just like to argue ...

 

[Don Guillette]

RichH: I absolutely agree and your opinions and Joe from San Diiego and the rest of the troops are never considered butting in. I value the insight you guys provide. Many times I forget that I'm talking to a large and varied base. In other words, I think in terms of my boats set up only and then Scott comes along and I think "oh crap, why didn't I take into consideration different set ups", but it all works out in the end as everyone chimes in.

 

[RichH]

OK then, how about you all - Scott, Stu, Ted, geehaw, 4 Points, Joe, Tom and Don and the rest of you ..... imagine youre first time on someone else's borrowed boat or a NEW boat. How do you set up the traveller so that ALL the tell tales are flying correctly, and stay correct for all swings of the boom?

Assume 12 knots, no gusts, the boat wont heel over more than about 15-20°, flat water, has a vang, etc. The mainsail was 'properly' raised so that its all stretched-out to its OEM designed shape, etc.

Your turn ...........

 

[justsomeguy]

Center it.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

On close haul, I'd probably bring the traveler car to windward about 1/3 way and ease the main to let the boom draw to just lee of center and keep the leech from hooking. The vang would probably be tensioned just snug. I'd see how that looks and fine tune with traveler and mainsheet. If I was to bear off to a close reach, I would ease the traveler accordingly. As I bear off to a reach the traveler might be moved all the way down (watching the slot) and start easing he mainsheet after the traveler is all the way down. I'd have to tension the vang to keep the telltales streaming. Bearing off further, I'd have to ease the mainsheet accordingly and tension the vang enough to keep tell tales streaming.