T Bird, Your entirely right. I'll come to you the next time I have a question or some other stupid thought.
Ray
Ray
Traveler
- Thread starter Quoddy
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Often, I have to skip the traveller - it is end boom and short on the Catalina 22. Not enough travel or quickness for my 'stop you in your tracks holes' to 'knock you over gust' sailing conditions. But, you know about C22 travellers. Inadequate travel and the stock one is a PIA to use.
I use the vang to shape the sail, then the mainsheet to let it out while the vang retains shape. This may not be as good as a great traveller, but I do not know what else to do on my boat.
OC
A wise post. Not all boats will go to windward well enough to benefit from a traveller pulled upwind.
OC
With just the two boats I own there is a huge difference. The Catalina 22, just as Old Cat said, will not benefit much from the toy like traveler that is on it. My Oday 25 however, there is not a boom vang made that can accomplish what the traveler can do.
I'm gonna hop in here with a question. Would the Oday 27 benefit from a traveler to say anything more than a few tenths of a knot? I know the factory shin buster run across the companionway has been pitched over the side. I have retained several of the leak points err t tracks from the jib cars and am considering installing one across the transom top like the 77 Oday 27 did. Mind you I can hop in the Piper Arrow if I'm in a hurry but I do enjoy a cruising sailboat that performs well.
You really got rid of the traveler near the companionway? Mine is not a shin buster and it seems like a great place to put that wide of a traveler. It is more than a few tenths of a knot if you are using it right. The other thing it does is allow you to go fast without all the heeling from weather helm. You can use more sail under the same weather conditions by just adjusting your traveler. That is pretty big in my book. I think the other thing is I do not race, but I do want to be the best sailor I can and get the most speed. Sailboats are not fast to begin with, no need to go even slower than necessary.
Hey there Recess. Yeah really, my shins were bleeding from that crazy thing running through space from one side to the other. And I never untied it from the dock as the core was so shot from all the holes from every go fast gadget, doodad and gilhickey that wasn't recaulked yearly I wasn't going to move it further than the haulout. Doesn't the 25 have a raised affair in front of the companionway? I am quite interested in the traveler that ran the transom top I have seen in the 1977 model. The weather helm issue is the best arguement I have heard for the traveler. I have all the options open during the restoration that provide a boat that performs well yet remains original as well as uncluttered and is easily handled by a small crew.
Actually, I will amend my argument by saying that the TRAVELER can evolve into a mechanism that can control angle of attack exclusively without the need for a mainsheet. The piston that is used to swing the boom horizontally will have a range of motion that exceeds the normal traveler ... it can be designed to control the entire range of motion all the way out to 90 degrees on both sides. That way, for those of you who believe that you can sail your boat upwind with your boom positioned upwind of centerline, you will have no restraints.
By naming this devise the Traveler, we can eliminate the mainsheet, a truly unnecessary devise.
Scott,
You really should spend some considerable time racing competitively before you make such arguments against a traveler...
When racing the traveler is a large portion of our main sheet control for angle of attack and the main sheet considerably less so. A good working traveler is worth its weight in gold especially if racing, but I use ours when cruising a lot too.I have owned three boats with modern rigid vangs and they do not prevent the main sheet from changing leech shape and CAN be compressed by the main sheet when close hauled. This is why we often use the traveler so as not to change the shape of the leech we have dialed in. With the traveler we can move the boom to windward without changing the leech shape or pulling/compressing the vang down with the main sheet.
A truly hydraulic vang would prevent both up and down movements of the boom but most boats don't have truly "hydraulic" vangs until you get into very large boats with hydraulic pumps. Most vangs for mid sized boats are usually just a spring inside two tubes and the only difference is the spring provides upward pressure which allows you to no longer need the topping lift. The block and tackle, like in a soft vang, still prevent the vang from being pulled UP but the spring does not prevent the main sheet from pulling the boom DOWN when close hauled and changing the shape of the leech, therefore a traveler can be and is a very useful item on boats with large overlapping head sails as most on this forum own.
To answer Quoddy's original question the Morris & Hinckley day sailors are non-overlapping head sail designs and as such don't develop the slot issues like most owners of boats on this forum have with large overlapping head sails. Either company will install a traveler for an owner who wants one. Because of the lack of slot issues a traveler is less necessary and the boats are specifically designed to be less complicated.
Well, in response to the original question, I think I could summarize by saying they they are not there because they are not necessary. Not to say that they aren't useful, but they certainly are not necessary. A boom vang isn't strictly necessary either. I think that often people get "useful" and "necessary" confused in sailing.
As I think has been covered, a traveler gives you better control upwind; the vang gives you better control downwind. In between the two extremes there is some overlap. The usefulness of either has as much to do with conditions, boat design, and objectives than anything.
My guess as to why we are seeing fewer travelers is because they add expense and complexity, take up cockpit space (which makes the boat harder to sell), and most sailors don't know how to use them anyway. Those who want them and know how to use them are inclined to add their own if they want it anyway? That is, my theory is that not having them helps sell boats to less performance-oriented sailors and doesn't probably deter performance-oriented sailors on that feature alone.
So, the safer thing to do for a manufacturer is leave it off to sell more boats. That's my guess. I think it's kind of like how pickups don't often come with a towing hitch standard anymore. Those who want/need them can just add them. Those who don't don't want to pay for them.
As I think has been covered, a traveler gives you better control upwind; the vang gives you better control downwind. In between the two extremes there is some overlap. The usefulness of either has as much to do with conditions, boat design, and objectives than anything.
My guess as to why we are seeing fewer travelers is because they add expense and complexity, take up cockpit space (which makes the boat harder to sell), and most sailors don't know how to use them anyway. Those who want them and know how to use them are inclined to add their own if they want it anyway? That is, my theory is that not having them helps sell boats to less performance-oriented sailors and doesn't probably deter performance-oriented sailors on that feature alone.
So, the safer thing to do for a manufacturer is leave it off to sell more boats. That's my guess. I think it's kind of like how pickups don't often come with a towing hitch standard anymore. Those who want/need them can just add them. Those who don't don't want to pay for them.
Scott,
You really should spend some considerable time racing competitively before you make such arguments against a traveler...
I have owned three boats with modern rigid vangs and they do not prevent the main sheet from changing leech shape and CAN be compressed by the main sheet when close hauled. This is why we often use the traveler so as not to change the shape of the leech we have dialed in. With the traveler we can move the boom to windward without changing the leech shape or pulling/compressing the vang down with the main sheet.
A truly hydraulic vang would prevent both up and down movements of the boom but most boats don't have truly "hydraulic" vangs until you get into very large boats with hydraulic pumps. Most vangs for mid sized boats are usually just a spring inside two tubes and the only difference is the spring provides upward pressure which allows you to no longer need the topping lift. The block and tackle, like in a soft vang, still prevent the vang from being pulled UP but the spring does not prevent the main sheet from pulling the boom DOWN when close hauled and changing the shape of the leech, therefore a traveler can be a very useful item.
Here, here.........
Uh...what happens if you have to push the tillers over hard, like to get out of irons.. don't those blocks get in the way?Just to stir the pot, I sail a Wharram tiki 26: 5' gaff-rigged, boomless main with a luff sleeve. The sail is, and must be, cut dead flat. The luff sleeve rotates to develop draft.
My "traveler" as designed is a 1/2" line across the sterns, with the mainsheet shackled to a block running on this line. Smaller lines attached to the block pull the mainsheet to weather or leeward. I'm currently setting up a double mainsheet system: here is a mock-up at my slip...
I have new fiddle blocks and a double-sheet swiveling cleat arriving soon to actually set up for sailing, but playing at the dock was promising. The plan is to set the angle of attack, and have a better ability to flatten the main as necessary. Traveler and vang all rolled into one! Well, sorta. How's that for a twist?
There are some other considerations here. Some cabin top travellers are very short, but probably fine for close sailing (assuming you can reach them). Also, I've seen some cockpit travellers that are very short (Jeanneau Sun Fast 37, between the seats - not allowing for tight sheeting unless you are pointing high.
Recall that the C&C Corvette (30 footish) does real well in races and does not have a traveller. As a few people have said, the sheet positions the boom and the vang controls the twist when they are pointing.
Recall that the C&C Corvette (30 footish) does real well in races and does not have a traveller. As a few people have said, the sheet positions the boom and the vang controls the twist when they are pointing.
I suspect he meant to windward?
Edit: Just read it and he likely meant what Scott just said below.
I've had this discussion with Rich before ...
By fixing the mainsheet to control the rise of the boom (twist), the traveler can be moved outboard but the movement is limited to the end of the traveler track - about halfway between the centerline and the rail.
Beyond that, the traveler and the mainsheet system lose control of twist and the vang is critical.
He is talking about the integrated system that exists between the traveler and the main sheet. As you know, it's actually the mainsheet tension that restricts the boom from rising (in the absence of a vang and/or because the mechanics of the stretchy rope vang doesn't have as much power).
By fixing the mainsheet to control the rise of the boom (twist), the traveler can be moved outboard but the movement is limited to the end of the traveler track - about halfway between the centerline and the rail.
Beyond that, the traveler and the mainsheet system lose control of twist and the vang is critical.
Not really, I asked him the same question a few months ago because I was puzzled by his statement in another discussion. After I thought about it a little, though, I knew what he meant just by thinking it thru.
You are essentially "controlling twist" with the traveler ... meaning that you can move the traveler to adjust angle of attack without affecting twist because you are not easing or tensioning the mainsheet.
However, in this discussion, Rich is describing "vang sheeting" with a hydraulic rigid vang that can control twist at all points of sail, simply by adjusting the vang. This eliminates the need for the traveler because the vang manages twist (and to a lesser degree draft), and the mainsheet only has one function ... angle of attack.
In a normal set-up, the mainsheet affects angle of attack, twist and draft. With the evolved vangs, twist and draft (to some degree) will be affected only by the vang and not the mainsheet.
You are essentially "controlling twist" with the traveler ... meaning that you can move the traveler to adjust angle of attack without affecting twist because you are not easing or tensioning the mainsheet.
However, in this discussion, Rich is describing "vang sheeting" with a hydraulic rigid vang that can control twist at all points of sail, simply by adjusting the vang. This eliminates the need for the traveler because the vang manages twist (and to a lesser degree draft), and the mainsheet only has one function ... angle of attack.
In a normal set-up, the mainsheet affects angle of attack, twist and draft. With the evolved vangs, twist and draft (to some degree) will be affected only by the vang and not the mainsheet.
The difference between a hydraulic fluid driven rigid vang with the more typical "rigid vang" most of us are familiar with is quite different.
The typical rigid vangs we see on most midsized boats are mechanical vangs & usually nothing more than a stainless spring in a two sliding tubes compressed with an "old style" external rope vang. These springs most often do not have enough guts to hold the set leech shape when sheeted for close hauled sailing. Thus if you wanted some twist and set for that when you change your angle of attack with the main sheet you can also change your leech shape. This is where a traveler can become beneficial as you can move the boom, without compressing the vang and changing the leech shape, and can keep the traveler closer to the centerline when close hauled without changing your leech shape that you want.
It is not until you get into very expensive hydraulic fluid controlled vangs that you get the compression stiffness to minimize an effect on leech shape, unless you also keep a topping lift. But, keeping a topping lift kind of defeats the purpose of a "rigid vang" or adding a big roach to sails that a topping lift would get in the way of. The Morris 29 & 36 use a standard mechanical spring/tube vangs. The Hinckley 42, if I am remembering correctly, uses a hydraulic vang. The DS-42 and M-36 & M-29 are non-overlapping head sail designs though so a traveler is less critical than on a boat with a large overlapping genny.
Below is the standard Hall Spars Quick Vang on an M-36. These can be compressed with the main sheet when pointing, and the leech shape can change with enough main sheet applied. There really is not a heck of a lot of difference between an old style rope vang and a mechanical spring/tube vang except that the spring can provide upward pressure and support the boom, which negates the need for a topping lift.
Rope vangs and mechanical 'rigid" vangs both pull the boom down in the same manner with a rope/line block & tackle purchase system. They do not have the strength though to compete with most main sheet purchase systems to prevent leech shape changes when pointing.
The term rigid would seem to denote "rigid" as in not moving up or down but mechanical spring vangs are really only rigid when you are pulling against the block & tackle system or up. Downward pressure is nothing more than a spring which is compressed either by the main sheet or the vang purchase tackle/rope vang.
Remove the spring in the pictured tube and you have a regular old rope vang preventing lift of the boom.
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