Traveler

[jbrosecity]

Rolltacker says it all succinctly and to the point... I'm not even sure why we're having the discussion. Anyone who thinks "there is no reason to set the angle of attack above dead center" has obviously never pointed his boat as high as it is capable of doing. I don't do it often in recreational cruising, but if I really want to point high to get around a certain promontory or whatever, I think the traveller adjusted all the way to windward is indispensable.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Sure, it works until your boat comes drifting to a halt ... are you saying that your boat defies physics?

You might have a point considering your location with a powerful current that can be useful in assisting a maneuver that just doesn't work without an external force.

But you should be more clear, just because your traveler is adjusted above dead center doesn't mean your angle of attack is above dead center ... do you mean to imply that you can sail with the end of your boom to windward of the centerline of the boat?

 

[FourPoints]

In a perfect world the main sheet would only adjust the angle of attack of the boom, and never apply any downward force on the boom. All downward force on the boom would come from the vang, and in this perfect world the only purpose of the traveler would be to change where on the boat the force of the sail is applied to alter the force of lateral rotation (weather helm vs lee helm).

In reality no boat is perfect, and the main sheet applies mostly downward force on the boom when close hauled, and little lateral force as it should, So the traveler gets a 2nd job. That 2nd job is to adjust the angle the main sheet applies force to the boom, reducing the downward force, and increasing the lateral force. By moving the traveler to windward you are now pulling the boom from a flatter angle and just like anchor scope, the flatter the angle, the more power you get in that lateral direction, and the less you pull down (or up when thinking about the anchor).

Think of your anchor let out at 1:1 scope, you have almost no holding power at all, that's what your main sheet is like when it is straight under the boom. If you let out more scope on the anchor and you are now pulling sideways on the anchor, not vertical. Moving the traveler to windward is the same concept for the boom.

A common misconception is that the traveler is used to control twist, and not needed with a rigid vang, that is completely false. Travelers are ONLY for fine tuning the angle of attack, and adjusting the point of force against the hull (weather helm vs lee helm). Used properly a traveler will never adjust twist. You control twist (downward force on the boom) first and foremost with the vang, rigid or soft, doesn't matter (rigid does help to zero the weight of the boom in light air for a little better sail shape though, but they both address twist the same). You control the angle of attack with the main sheet, and you control the attachment point of the main sheet with the traveler. Any twist control from the main sheet is actually a by product of our imperfect rig designs (and I mean probably every boat ever made, they all compromise something for weight, ease of use, space, or cost).

Do you need a traveler? No, you can sail the boat without one, you just won't be able to control the main sheet as well as someone who has a traveler (and knows how to use it). The result will be over flattening the main when close hauled by applying too much downward force to the boom, resulting in slower speeds and/or your inability to sheet the boom in far enough reducing your inability to point as high as other boats with otherwise identical setups.

 

[Rolltacker]

With regard to boom location, the development of larger full-battened roaches and later square-headed sails, especially in catamarans, have made sailors remember the advantages of sail twist.Many racers have discovered it is faster to sacrifice some drive in the low section of the sail(by being sheeted above centerline) to gain power in the upper portion of the sail. Older sail designs with straighter leaches and partial battens may not experience this advantage,but anyone with a roachy full-battened sail will always set the boom at or above centerline in light to moderate conditions. It may not be theoretically possible, but as the competition inches ahead, one becomes a believer.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

All the arguments are valid when thinking only in terms of using stretchy ropes and mechanical devises that are designed more for ease of use rather than efficient mechanical advantage.

The soft-rope vang has evolved into a rigid mechanical piston which can raise and lower the vertical angle of the boom, therefore twist can be controlled exclusively by the rigid vang. When twist is controlled exclusively by one devise (the rigid vang), the mainsheet is necessary only for angle of attack.

The mainsheet has not evolved (yet). It is still that ineffecient rope that pulls the boom in toward the center by tensioning in a downward force and lets the boom swing out by easing that downward force. A mechanical diagram easily shows just how ineffecient that activity is, but sailors have traditionally used it that way because with ropes, it's not so easy to find another way. We still think of it as a devise that has to be used in conjunction with a vang and a traveler to get the angle of attack and the twist just right when all 3 are employed.

However, now that the vang is an evolved mechanism, what's left to do is eliminate the soft-rope mainsheet and replace it with a rigid piston that moves the boom horizontally ... angle of attack. Then the traveler is truly not needed.

 

[jbrosecity]

to answer Scott T-Bird, I don't think anyone is implying that you want to sail with the end of your boom to windward of the centerline of the boat. But by pulling the traveller all the way to windward you can bring the boom right up close to the centerline and maximize your angle of attack. Obviously important for racing but also for recreational sailing if you trying to avoid an unnecessary tack to get around a certain point or obstacle. As for the science of sail twist and full batten design, I was a windsurfer in the Columbia River Gorge for 25 years before retiring to more relaxed sailing and can attest to the difference that advanced sail design and twist off makes in extended the wind speed range of a sail and its efficiency. Still I am very happy sailing my "old tech" O'Day 23 this spring here in central texas. Roller Furling jib is about the only advancement this boat needed to make sailing entirely pleasurable.

 

[Don Guillette]

As Paul Harvey used to say "now for the rest of the story".

The first thing a mate has to understand in a discussion of this type is what is the traveler and boom vang adjusting? ALL OF THE SAIL TRIM CONTROLS for the main and jib are adjusting ONLY 4 items, which I call the "4 elements of sail trim" and they are draft depth, draft position, twist and angle of attack. Now that we have that out the way let's discuss what "element" the traveler adjusts - it's ANGLE OF ATTACK and that is the only element the traveler adjusts. The secondary sail trim control for angle of attack, if you don't have a traveler, is the mainsheet.

Why is the traveler a better choice over the mainsheet? Think of the screen door in your garage. Assume it has a pin in the corner that rides in a grove in the floor. When you open and close the screen door does the shape of the screen change? Obviously, it doesn't. The problem with the mainsheet is when you mess with it to adjust angle of attack you're also messing with TWIST and DRAFT POSITION and you may not of wanted to adjust those element. Using the screen analogy - you're hit by a strong gust of wind and the boat heels over so all you do is drop the traveler, which bring the boat back on it's feet. When the gust passes, you crank up the traveler to it's original position and sail happily on your way. Based on what I've told you, you now have enough info to decide how important the traveler is. If the boat didn't come with a traveler because the boat builder was too cheap to install one (or the buyer was trying to save a buck) - the traveler would be the first mod I'd install.

I'm not sure how the BOOM Vang came into this discussion on the traveler but first you have to know what "elements" the boom vang is adjusting. The boom vang is the primary sail trim control for TWIST. The seconday sail trim control for twist, if you don't have a boom vang, is the mainsheet. The mainsheet is a poor second choice because you might think you're adjsuting twist but you know, based on what I told you above, that when you mess with the mainsheet you're also adjusting angle of attack, and draft position.

Roger Long is correct that this topic belonged on the SAIL TRIM FORUM. When I was learning how to trim sails I had similiar discussion with my sailing dock neighbors. They confused the hell out of me becaused they mixed and matched things. This discussion took on a life of it's own, which would have been avoided on the sail trim forum, because guys like Joe from San Deigo, and Stu J would have jumped on it immediately. Unfortunately, their comments, which I suggest everyone read, got lost in a lot of speculation and miss info.

Here's the bottom line, if you don't completely understand DRAFT DEPTH, DRAFT POSITION, TWIST and ANGLE OF ATTACK, sail trim will never make any sense to you. In fact, in my book I deal with those elements in the first chapter and I advise you that if you don't have a complete understanding of the 4 elements to not proceed any further. Go back and re-read the chapter until you do.'

 

[All U Get]

I did a quick search and these boats seem to be set up for short handed sailing. It appears to be a return to simplicity rather than competition driven. If you can't point any higher, just come about.
All U Get
I'll look at the boats again, but I thought the thread was why would they build them.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Amendment ...

Actually, I will amend my argument by saying that the TRAVELER can evolve into a mechanism that can control angle of attack exclusively without the need for a mainsheet. The piston that is used to swing the boom horizontally will have a range of motion that exceeds the normal traveler ... it can be designed to control the entire range of motion all the way out to 90 degrees on both sides. That way, for those of you who believe that you can sail your boat upwind with your boom positioned upwind of centerline, you will have no restraints.

By naming this devise the Traveler, we can eliminate the mainsheet, a truly unnecessary devise.

 

[sandpiper10471]

Some good and valid discussion. However, the original question by Quoddy has not been addressed. How come some of the newer boats are being produced without the traveler? There have been many successful boats on the market with extremely short travelers and this has always bothered me. They use the mini traveler for leech control to windward and rely on a strong vang to control twist the rest of the time. The newer boats tend to have great beam. I would have thought this excellent for close reaching providing a long traveler is installed to get the ultimate in sail control (four elements) further off the wind. So back to the original question. Why eliminate the traveler?
PS - Love the comment by the Nonsuch sailor. Both controls effectively eliminated by the wishbone rig.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Don, I have a simple question for you ... If you have a powerful rigid vang which is capable of fixing the vertical angle of the boom, how does the mainsheet influence twist or draft?

The answer is ... it doesn't.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Sandpiper, the only logical answer to the question is the introduction of powerful rigid vangs which control twist exclusively without influene by the mainsheet. Without impacting twist (or draft for that matter when the vertical angle is fixed by the vang), the only use for the mainsheet is angle of attack. That makes the traveler redundant.

Like I said earlier, if the traveler is evolved instead to control the entire range of horizontal movement, that makes the mainsheet unnecessary.

 

[Stargazer3]

On my "old" O'Day 30 - I hardly ever used the traveler. I probably SHOULD have used it more since it does have a great deal of importance in keeping the correct draft in the sail at a wider range of wind directions. But we were "lazy." we set it so that the travelor could move just a few degrees Port or Starboard of dead center - and let the mainsheet do all the work.
With my "new" H410 - the OPPOSITE practise is easier. Leave the main-sheet alone for most points of close-hauled sailing and use the Traveler lines to move the boom up to 30 degrees off the wind. The Vang just keeps the boom down and keeps it from bouncing. The travelor controls the angle of attack. Bill on STARGAZER

 

[FourPoints]

Don, I have a simple question for you ... If you have a powerful rigid vang which is capable of fixing the vertical angle of the boom, how does the main sheet influence twist or draft?

The answer is ... it doesn't.

Only the large hydraulic rigid vangs on very large boats that do not lower down without adjusting the hydraulics will counteract the "twist control" of the main sheet. 99% of the rigid vangs out there simply have springs inside them to hold the boom up (effectively identical to combining a boom kicker and a normal soft vang, there is no additional benefit or capability aside from aesthetics / personal preference) this means that when the main sheet is pulled in and pulls down on the boom, it will easily overpower and compress the vang spring.

I switched form a soft vang to a rigid vang last year (worthwhile upgrade), but not because it eliminates the need for a traveler one bit. I did it because I wanted to eliminate the topping lift and gain some light air performance where the weight of the boom was over flattening the main.

 

[captmikem]

lots of comments... Simply put, you need both to get performance out of your boat.
but...
Not everyone is interested in performance, they are interested in convenience
And that is why you do not see travelers on some new boats.. some of these boats are built for convenience rather than sailing ability.

I walk down my dock looking at boats and without fail each new Beneteau and Island Packet has an in mast furling main. Big cut in performance but is perceived as convenient. Also, have a look at the way they are rigged. Without fail each one has a poor lead from their headsail furler, in every case at least one of the blocks is positioned so that the line is on the cheek instead of the sheave . Not rigged by a rigger and the owners don't notice or don't know. None of them have spinnaker poles on deck, and half of them have large dodgers that would be in the way of a traveler.

 

[Todd Smith]

The discussion very quickly went in the engineering discussion of wether the traveller could be removed without any loss of sail trim ability. But you all ignored the real design decision. The prospective buyers of these boats prefer simple systems over getting the last perfection of sail trim.

 

[Freedom77]

I'm going to cut to the chase. A traveler improved my boats performance. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it. Fair Winds and Full Sails...

 

[rycsailor]

There is at least one good reason for a traveler, it minimizes the effects of a back-winded main. If you've ever been hit by a flying boom, you'll know why they named it BOOM

 

[Don Guillette]

Don, I have a simple question for you ... If you have a powerful rigid vang which is capable of fixing the vertical angle of the boom, how does the mainsheet influence twist or draft?

The answer is ... it doesn't.

Sorry mate, but your wrong. Do a google search on the mainsheet or refer to Dennis Conner's book "Sail Like A Champion" and learn what the mainsheet is adjusting. You'll find it is angle of attack, twist and draft position. Regardless of what you might think the boom vang is not a substitute for the mainsheet. What is your idea of a powerful rigid vang? When I think of "powerful" I have to wonder how many sailors have that type of a devise in the first place.

This discussion is going off the wall, which is why Phil probably put it here. After all, sailboatowners.com is a business and they need mates to come to the site but this discussion reminds me of a scene from the movie "Battleground". At Bastonge, near the end of the battle, they had to throw everyone into the fight. An infantryman is explaining the Garand rifle to a cook. He says "the Garand is a 30 cal, gas operated, clip feed with 8 rounds, semi-automatic rifle'. The cook says " I don't want to buy it, I just want to know how to shoot it!!". A lot of sailors come to these sites to learn how to sail their boats, which ain't easy in the begiinning, so discussion should be kept simple and on topic so we don't confuse beginners. I'm so confused with this discussion that I wouldn't know where to begin to unravel it.

Here's how it works over on the sail trim forum - I, and other listers (Joe from San Diego, Stu J, RichH and others) give our opinion based on our sail trim experience and we back up what we say with facts and lister then can out on the water and see if it works for them. If it doesn't work for them they go back to doing what they were origianlly doing - whatever that was.

A word about RichH, Joe from San Diego and Stu J - their articles on the sail trim forum are so good readers should print them off and paste them to their forehead!! That's how good they are.

 

[Don Guillette]

Don, I have a simple question for you ... If you have a powerful rigid vang which is capable of fixing the vertical angle of the boom, how does the mainsheet influence twist or draft?

The answer is ... it doesn't.

I missed a point. What DRAFT are you referring to? Be specific.