Traveler trim but no traveler?

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Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
On my boat the main sheet leads off the very aft end of the boom, there is a plenty powerful vang tackle, but there is no traveler.

As it stands now it is difficult to center the boom absent considerable main-sheet tension -- and generally when it is time for "traveler up" or "traveler down" adjustments I get more confused than usual.

Are angle of attack adjustments -- normally achieved by traveler trim -- possible to replicate by using a combination of vang and mainsheet?

Hoping for explanation here.

Charles
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
For traveler DOWN, yes you can simulate by setting the vang to prevent the boom from rising and playing the mainsheet. Its called 'vang sheeting' and is handy when the breeze is on to lower the Angle of Attack of the sail.

For traveler UP, no sorry there is no alternative to the traveler. As you may have found, in light to moderate breeze the boat will point much better with the boom as close to the centerline of the boat as possible, and that is not possible without moving the traveler to windward. Pulling super hard on the mainsheet simply takes the twist out of the sail, which has bad consequences.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
I see -

So - in a traveler up case - do you think could one rig a tackle from the boom to the windward rail and that way tug the boom to the windward (to the boat center?)

Chas.
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Charles: A couple of things come to mind --- I'm not familiar with your boat but is there anyway you can attach a traveler to your boat? What your now describing is a "jib Barberhauler" like devise for the mainsail, which would also work.

Barberhhauler is an interesting term, which has nothing to do with anything nautical. Manning & Merritt Barber were two identical twins who raced Lightnings against Dennis Conner in San Diego. In San Diego the winds are light and the seas lumpy. The brothers discovered, by accident, that when they pulled the jib sheet inboard they picked up almost 1 knot of speed. Once folks saw what they were doing, everyone started doing it. I believe both brothers are still dentist and Dennis Conner is one of their patients.

The first time I used a barberhauler was in a race in Long Beach, Ca. We were in the back of the pack and I asked the skipper if I could try it. At first he said NO but I finally convinced him that he had nothing to lose -- we're at the ass end of the fleet anyway!! An amazing thing happened -- we past 3 boats. At the next turn we lost the gain but I became a believer.

Some newbies may be confused with the notion of "moving the traveler up or down". Years ago, at sail trim seminars, folks would get confused with the correct terminology of "moving the traveler to windward or leeward" so I asked newbie sailors to visualize the boat heeled over at 20 degrees. Now if you want to heel the boat over further pull the traveler "up hill". If you want the boat tot come back on its feet "drop the traveler down hill". Everyone seemed to get it and I didn't have to go into a long explanation of windward and leeward so I just kept using it. I know Joe from San Diego, RichH, Stu J and others would probably prefer I use the correct terms but I'm too old to change!!
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Thanks a bunch - particularly enjoy Don's Barber Bros. story because I had always wondered about that one.

As to my case as I said it is end boom sheeting. The sheet tackle runs from one side of the stern upward to the boom then downward to the other side of the stern - an A shape. Problem is the boat hull is nearly double ended and that means the distance across the boat is very short - so short that a traveler would only be maybe 15-18 inches which does not get me much advantage.

Think I will am going to rig a Boom-Barberhaul and see what happens.

Charles
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Charles,

I think it would give you quite a bit more than you think! ;^)

First is that type of 'A' rigging of the mainsheet is the worst possible when it comes to pulling the boom towards the centerline. Its really pulling down and out.

Second you really don't need much travel to windward to make a difference. A foot would make a big difference.

I don't think you can barberhaul the A-mainsheet effectively.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Jackdaw, Don

Lord knows I love an experiment. So I am going to rig a "hauler" - which will need to be shifted tack for tack and so I won't like it much - but it is simple. And -- then I am going to rig a mock up traveler and make comparison.

Thanks for these observations because they really help.

Charles
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
OK, re the baberhauler...

Remember that you will need to haul (pull) BOTH sides of the top of the 'A' to windward for it to have any effect. Or try just the leeward... ;^) even better... This should be done using a low-friction ring around the sheet-run that slides easily. Maybe a huge carabiner? You do not want to attach a line to the boom or block that has to be released separately, preventer-style. For safety the sheet/boom should always ease immediately if you release the sheet, even if the barberhauler is still on.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Got it - I think.

In either case - when I rig tackle in situations like this - I rig for quick (smooth) release and also a second emergency quick release back up so as to avoid surprises.

Weather here is promising - so pleasant in fact that wind will probably be at a premium.

Charles
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
charles,

Think of this this way.. barberhauler are essentially movable fairleads, held in place/space by line. They never stop or control a sheet, they just 'bend' it to give a better angle. Releasing the sheet always plays out the sail... there is never a need for a emergency release on a hauler. If you think you need one, you've designed it wrong! ;^)

See this page for ideas!

http://l-36.com/twing.php
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Charles: Try this before you go to a lot of work. Just tie a line on the end of the boom and pull the boom by hand gently toward the centerline and see what happens. You don't even need a line -- just grab the end of the boom and gently pull it toward you. Remember I called this thing we're discussing "a jib devise for the mainsail" and it's very micky mouse. What you're trying to do is change the angle of attack and by moving the boom toward the centerline the boat should power up. The jib barberhauler is an entirely different thing from the traveler.

Forget about the jib for this discussion -- we're trying to find a substitute for the traveler but I'm curious. Is your boat a fractional rig?

Before I purchased a C30 I had a C25 and the traveler was very short but I used it anyway because I wanted to be like the big guys!!
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
No -- masthead rig. Anyhow, seems continued experimentation is warranted and so I shall do so.

Thanks a heap for these propositions because I would probably not have thought through the possibilities. Rest assured I intend to try all suggestions.

Charles
 

chp

.
Sep 13, 2010
418
Hunter 280 hamilton
Charles: Try this before you go to a lot of work. Just tie a line on the end of the boom and pull the boom by hand gently toward the centerline and see what happens. You don't even need a line -- just grab the end of the boom and gently pull it toward you. Remember I called this thing we're discussing "a jib devise for the mainsail" and it's very micky mouse. What you're trying to do is change the angle of attack and by moving the boom toward the centerline the boat should power up. The jib barberhauler is an entirely different thing from the traveler.

Forget about the jib for this discussion -- we're trying to find a substitute for the traveler but I'm curious. Is your boat a fractional rig?

Before I purchased a C30 I had a C25 and the traveler was very short but I used it anyway because I wanted to be like the big guys!!
Doing this by hand is what convinced me to add a traveller this year. Fortunately I already had mid boom sheeting. I've only been out once this year and wind was light but what a difference especially with pointing ability. I can't wait to get out in some heavier winds.
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Charles: I did a google search for your boat -- it sure is beautiful. Unfortunatley, I couldn't find any decent pictures of your mainsail sail trim controls. I wanted to see the "A" set up. I also wonder if your boat has an owners network (like Catalina, Hunter). Owners are a wealth of info. Maybe you don't need a traveler? With a masthead rig, the engine is the jib.

When I mentioned making adjustments gently I mean don't just grab it and pull it in. Go slowly to give the sail a chance to catch up. It's like turning the faucet to hot in the shower -- you have to wait a minute for the hot water. Before you start messing with the mainsail make sure your jib is set properly or you'll be just wasting your time.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Precious few other boats similar in my contry. No owners group that is still active that I can find. Rich H.'s Tanya would be is similar shapewise by the way.

Anyway I am off to the boat and we will see. Meantime I will try for photos of the present main-sheet arrangement.

Charles.
 
May 17, 2004
2,099
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Charles: It's too bad that there is not an active owners group for your boat but as soon as you can go out and buy a lottery ticket!! If RichH has a set up like yours you're in luck because no one I know knows more about the technical side of sail trim than he does. Hopefully, he's following this thread and can help you with a solution.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Ok Don

Wind is plenty good white caps single reef 110 jib. Slapped around a bit because gusty so not so good conditions for experiment. Very good for traveler down but that is easy.
Perhaps tomorrow. Photos of sheet set up if I can find camera.

Presently cold beverage time.

Charles
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Charles
The Hess designed Nor'Sea 27 is going to be a conundrum vis a vis a traveller due to the outboard pintle hung rudder and aft boom sheeting. Theres not much room on the cabin top for effective mid boom sheeting, your boat has end boom sheeting thus the 'rope bridle' (no traveller) arrangement to allow room for the large tiller to pass through/between !!!!

I think, there are only three possibilities to prevent your boom from lifting during a blow, etc. 1. Vang sheeting 2. 'stropping' the boom to the rail with a 4:1 tackle when the boom is 'outboard'. 3 'double duty' from a boom brake

The NorSea is a fair bluewater design, meaning that its scantlings (inbuilt build strength) are at least 3:1 or greater, so any modifications you make will have to be commensurate with those scantlings ... or youre bound to 'break something'.

The end boom sheeting that you currently have, plus your narrow stern, plus that tiller dominating the stern ... will simply not allow any functional traveller at the stern. The problem will be that such a traveller, always in the way of the tiller, will be next to useless when the boom is well outboard such as when deep reaching or running because of the 'pinched stern'.


Possibilities
Vang sheeting would a somewhat poor alternative to a mid-boom traveller due to the possible humongous forces involved .... from the 'leverage' of that long boom. If you do experiment with vang sheeting youre probably going to need at least an 8:1 (or better) vang system - quite easy to do by adding 'a doubler' to a 4:1 vang; plus, you'd need to run the tail of the vang back to the cockpit for convenient control, instead of constantly running to the mast base to adjust the vang. A doubler line is simply an extra strong line (or cable) added to a vang ........ run the second line 'from' the base of the current vang to a VERY stout block 'strapped' to the boom (near the present boom vang connection) and terminating in an eye (splice) several inches below the block that is 'strapped' to the boom ... the top of the 4:1 vang system connects to the 'strapped' block, the bottom of the 4:1 connects to the mast base. At 8:1 you should have sufficient power to adjust the boom when under full load. The downside is that the compression forces acting along the axis of the boom will be doubled .... may require a 'doubly strong' gooseneck connection (?).
But with such a long boom, dont expect vang sheeting to do all the work needed to prevent the boom from lifting .... that 'help' would probably come from a 'preventer' tacked from the cap rail (if strong enough to withstand the 'upward forces').

Preventer system - For when the boom is outboard. A 4:1 (or more) part tackle that is used from 'somewhere' near mid-boom to the cap rail, the 'attitude' of the preventer would be chiefly 'vertical' (from the cap rail to the boom) when the boom is 'outboard'. Got a cap rail track that can handle such loads ???? The preventer (used only 'vertical') could be run back to the cockpit for easy control to give sufficient 'downforce' to the boom. Downside is that for every tack or gybe, you have to release / disconnect the preventer from the caprail and reset to the opposite side caprail (or install two preventers ... 'rope salad' on the side deck to trip over).

A combo of both ... and you probably already have all the equipment!
Your mainsheet rope 'bridle' system should be sufficient for providing boom end downforce when then the boom is inboard of the stern. The only downside of a mainsheet bridle is that if you pull too much tension in the mainsheet, the boom aft end can also be pulled too far down .... thus the tendency to 'hook up the mainsail leech to windward' which causes SLOW beating and aggressive heeling .... (most folks over-tension jibsheets and mainsheets, and then wonder why the boat is 'cranky' !!!!).

Possible Rx:
A. Redesign your present vang system - the new vang would have a bodacious snap shackle on the end that connects to the mast base.
When the boom goes well outboard, disconnect the vang from the mast base and relocate the attachment to the cap rail (super strong cap rail track?) ... the 'attitude' of the relocated vang should be mostly 'straight vertical' from the cap to the boom ... for the 'least' amount of induced forces along the axis of the boom, connection to the boom can be heavy tubular webbing (need another bodacious snap shackle). Downside is you will have to 'play' the vang during gybing maneuvers; and, if you heel way over with a prevented boom and the boom/sail goes underwater you ARE going to break your boom! Obviously and for safety, the vang control line has to be lead back to the cockpit -- a good application would be a 'trigger' cam cleat (Harken) for instant release when needed.
B. My preference ---- Use a boom brake but have the boom brake connection to the boom closer to the mast than normal, the connection of the brake to the boom should be nearly directly over the cap rail when the boom is fully outboard. When needing more downforce on the boom, simply apply more force into the boom brake. Use a cabin top winch to apply sufficient force to the boom brake to apply the needed 'downforce' to the boom. I use a Wichard Gyb'Easy boom brake (just a fancy mountain climbing friction carabiner) and do use it to 'assist' the (mid-boom) traveller in F8+ wind conditions on my Tayana boat. If the boom is well outboard and does go underwater when mightily heeled over, the brake will 'slip' and the boom wont break (I hope). Problem with a boom brake is more 'crap' to possibly trip over and get tangled in when going forward when its dark and stormy; and, you may not have sufficient tension in the boom-brake friction control line to prevent or slow down an accidental gybe.
C. combo of A + B .... and/or Rigid boom vang !!!!

At least here's something else to think about ... as you really dont need the sudden 'power-ups' that can occur on a relatively tender boat that has an overly twisted sail. Who needs a 'surprise spreader / mast in the water' or a 'surprise goose-wing gybe'? ;-)
 

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Apr 20, 2013
28
Hunter 25.5 PORT ARTHUR
You could always put a second block between the fiddles that could be used as a fairlead. You would not have to release it in a puff.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Rigged things as Rich H suggested. Vang already was 8/1 and found figure 8 repel hardware in my mast climbing gear bag - works just the same way as the Wichard.

These changes all work as advertised including interfering with trips forward and some additional trimming decisions. There are no lines lead aft so everything gets trimmed at the mast -but the mast is just two steps away considering this boat is sort of mid cockpit.

When the boat - and I - got cranky the show off helm person answers by heading up and back down as the gusts dictate thus keeping the boat rather well behaved all the while mentioning that no traveler is no problem anyway.

Personally I think the changes mentioned in this discussion were worth the effort no matter what she-who-must-helm has to say about it.

Charles
 
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