Trailerability and launchability

tkanzler · Sep 26, 2011

A water ballasted MacGregor fits that bill, and the X and M has private heads, standing room (mostly), and are pretty stable beyond the initial tenderness. My X weighs 2300 lb plus trailer with nothing in it, and even my Honda Odyssey pulls it easily. It sits very low on the trailer, and is easy to launch and retrieve at 9" or so draft (ballast tank empty). the X has a swing keel, while the M has a daggerboard. Oh, and I can pull a wakeboarder with my 50 hp. :dance:

The old Aquarius 23's (I used to have one) also sat very low, with a steel swing keel (13" draft), and was similarly easy to launch and retrieve, but those had much less headroom.

hman · Sep 26, 2011

I've had both a full keel and centerboard trailer sailer and have found the swing centerboard of my Oday much, much easier to launch and retrieve. No having to unhook the trailer, attach a strap to drop the trailer further down the ramp. I've a friend with a Venture 21 with a swing keel and it's as easy to launch as my 23, although cranking the keel up and down is a pain.

I guess it all depends on how much sailing you are going to do. You will have more sailing time with a swing keel or centerboard because they are faster to launch and retrieve. As for stability, my 23 has a partial lead keel that keeps it pretty steady in a blow....

Merlin Clark · Sep 26, 2011

Since ramp depth isn't an issue there are some interesting crosses between swing and fixed keel boats.
The Precision 23 and Spindrift 22 have short, ballasted fixed keels and centerboards. One of the fine people here informed me that these boats share the same designer, Jim Taylor.
I've never sailed the former but my neighbor has a Spindrift 22 that I've been on and it sails very well. I didn't understand why it sailed so well until I saw it out of the water saw the short fixed keel.
The fixed keel provides good lateral resistance and stops the boat from crabbing as much and the deep centerboard allows for good pointing ability.
Just something to consider. Good hunting.

Merlin Clark · Sep 26, 2011

and the displacement to ballast ratio of the Precision is about 3:1, 2450 lbs and 850 lbs so it's pretty stable.

hman · Sep 26, 2011

Between my Santana full keel and my Oday keel/centerboard, the Santana would point a lot higher, but they both rounded up at about 15-18knts of wind unless you tuck a reef in. I feel very secure in my 23 in higher winds and chop...If you are going to race, then go for the full keel, but it sounds like you are more interested in crusing, so the swing keel/centerboard might be the better way to go.

Sumner · Sep 26, 2011

The following is what I posted on the thread where Jimgo is looking for a boat. Sorry, but I'm too lazy to re-type it so just copied it. I feel it is important from the standpoint of if you start looking at the water ballast Macs you need to know some of the differences between the different ones that have been made. If you already know, sorry for the post.

In addtion to what is below is the fact that the S and probably the D point very hight with the swing and dagger centerboards. They also sail well in very light air. In wind over 15 knots you are going to want to reef in. Like has been mentioned they are tender until about 15 degrees and then harden up as the water ballast starts to do the job. I know that some of the owners have intentionally tried to knock them down without much luck and if they did it was just for a second or so before they popped right back up.

They are said to exhibit weather helm with the stock rudder to some degree in heavier air. We have the aftermarket Ida Sailor rudder on ours and that has never been a problem. Ruth wishes it wasn't quite as tender, but the boat has never felt unsafe and we were stuck out in some 60 mph winds on Lake Powell....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/MacgregorTrips-3-Powell09/09-10-9-Powell-09.html

...and have experienced some pretty big blows and some heavier waves in Florida, like when we were crossing Florida Bay, but the boat has never felt unsafe to us.

If you want a boat that is very easy and fast to launch...

...about anywhere I don't think you can go wrong with one. How many other boats can you just launch into the lake without a ramp like above. We have had ours in Canada, Colo, Idaho, Utah and Florida in a 3 year period for weeks at a time and would buy the same boat again for our needs in an instant. There again how many boats that you can live aboard for some time can you tow all over the country easily. You need to consider though if it is the right boat for your needs.

=========================================

Now for the copied other post that was directed to Jimgo:

Since you are still looking I'll throw in another plug for a Classic Mac S or D. A little higher than the $2000 that you threw out earlier, but I can't see as how you were going to be under that with any of the other boats you mentioned by the time you bought trailers, motors and other items to get them sailing and especially when you started to talk about slip fees.

I've seen a few D's in the $3000-$4000 range and a few S's in the $5-6,000 range that were ready to sail. The couple thousand dollar difference in what you quoted above would be easily made up in one year of slip fees and you wouldn't be tied to one area.

They have a lot of interior room inside, about the largest rear berth of any trailerable boat and a large cockpit. With the water ballast they are under 2000 lb., about 3,000 lb total for the trailer/boat. About as easy to launch as anything out there. You can be on the water in 45 min. or so and no need to tune the rig after setup. Will sail in 15 inches of water and you can...

...beach them if you so desire. I prefer the S with the swing keel as it is more foregiving if you run aground, but there are tons of D's with a dagger board sailing everywhere and they will also sail in 15 inches of water with the board up. The D is a little faster and they are both fast 26 foot boats with PHRF's in the 210 to 220 range and will point very high into the wind and will sail in very light wind also.

We love ours and had never sailed before, but it has allowed us to sail here in Utah, Colo, Idaho, Canada and Florida. We have been out on her at up to 2 months and the last trip was over 400 miles down the west coast of Florida over to the Keys and back up south of Miami. There are a lot of these boats sailing off both coasts, the Gulf and of course all over inland.

Spend a little time on the Mac Board on here...

http://forums.macgregor.sailboatowners.com/forumdisplay.php?f=68

.. and the other 2 ...

http://bbs.trailersailor.com/forums/macgregor/index.cgi

http://www.macgregor26x.com/forum/index.php

... if you have questions or want to know more about them and if you haven't yet look at the video TB posted....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7076785769434785211

These boats are very easy to modify to fit your personal needs. We bought an Endeavour last spring, but will keep and probably have the Mac way past when the Endeavour has moved on to someone else. It has been perfect for our needs.

No matter what you get good luck and I wouldn't wait until next spring when everyone is thinking about going back out. Winter is a good time to buy if you are looking for a little better bargain,

Sum

Our Endeavour 37

Our Trips to Utah, Idaho, Canada, Florida

Our MacGregor S Pages

Mac-Venture Links

JoeWhite · Sep 26, 2011

I will say - do not rush. Take the courses first and rent boats and ask questions about the keel and dimensions of the boat. Remember that you have to take the mast down to trailer. I had a 1984 Hunter 25.5 foot. shoal keel trailerable with the trailer. It was too much work to set it up every time I had to go sailing and I ended up buying a new GMC van that was 2500 frame so that I could tow the 6200 lb boat and trailer safely. You may consider getting a 30 footer specially if you are thinking of overnighting with 4 people. Others told me that nothing under a 30 footer is worth buying. They were right. I now have a 36 footer. Spend as much as a year to study what you would like to do with the boat. The slip costs are not all that much. Good luck.

soling42 · Sep 27, 2011

What's the budget??? Every opinion will be limited by that.

There will be a significant stability difference between a light weight trailer boat which is realistically trailerable compared to a 30'+ keel boat in a slip ready to go. Trailer boats make great lake boats but may be limited if you get stuck in big open water in terrible weather.

Towing vehicles/trailers and setup costs money and time. Slip fees may actually be pretty comparable by the time you add it all up. We have sort of a hybrid dock/trailer situation.

We started in a 24' and almost instantly realized that we wanted a full head and that the 24' was too tight for us, but that's not everybody. Moving to a 26' gave us the full head and was just barely enough for 2 of us with supplies on week long cruises but could handle 4 for only a couple days which ends up being a pretty rare occasion anyway. So we've sailed what I'd consider a marginally trailerable 26' for 5yrs and in reality it's worked out just fine.

The big boat dream is one thing but in reality 99% of the time we're daysailing/overnight and our 26' lives on an inexpensive friends dock for 9mths, ready to go. Then we trailer it home only once at the end of the season where it's safe from hurricanes and I can mess around with the fix-it/upgrade-it list. Right now it's the best of both worlds for our sailing grounds and the economy we're trying to survive.

My advice for most things in life, but especially for boats, is "live within yours means" and "love the one you're with". Good luck in your choice and as was mentioned, take your time.

Mike

dscribner · Sep 27, 2011

Squidd,

There isn't a boat out there that isn't loved by some and hated by others, both for very good reasons.

We bought a Lancer 25 three years ago. No trailer, no truck, no sailing experience. Sounds moronic, I know, but we were aware of the obstacles before we signed the check. The first time I sailed was the first time I hanked on my own jib just past the jetty, with nothing but Atlantic Ocean in my view. It's been 1200 NM since and no regrets. Oh, yeah, there's a point to this. Our Lancer is 25 feet long, sleeps 5, has a shoal keel (draft 30") and weighs about 4000 lbs loaded. We trailer it every time we sail, step the mast every time we sail, unstep the mast every time we sail. But, even with just me and my lovely bride, it's doable. Our boat has about 5'10" head room and the sailing characteristics are fair. Maybe because of the boat, maybe because I'm clueless. If I were to look for a new boat I would look for 6 things

Head room
Head room (how big is the head?)
Sailing characteristics
Accommodations
Ease of mast stepping.
Draft

If you are still looking, now is a great time to buy. I'd suggest picking up a copy of The Complete Trailer Sailor by Brian Gilbert. Lots of great stuff in there but most notably, a section in the back with dozens of trailerables with sketches, photos, spec, pros and cons. It might help you to get the perfect boat.

Fair winds and fairer sellers!

Don

Merlin Clark · Sep 28, 2011

Good looking boat and nothing wrong with diving in Dan! As long as the water is deep enough!

JimGo · Sep 28, 2011

I looked at an Irwin 25' with swing keel that weighed 5600 lbs, and had 5'9" headroom (height). It was actually surprising to stand inside it and not feel compelled to crawl (I'm somewhere between 5'10" and 5'11"). It was a DRASTICALLY different feeling to the cabin than many of the other 22-25's I'd been aboard. I'm still "boatless", but in the throws of buying a 25' Catalina. The ceiling isn't nearly as high, but isn't bad. I just think I'm going to wind up in the cockpit a fair bit. I'm told that the larger SK's are really meant for the lifestyle Don described, where, at the very least, the mast remains stepped (whether or not they are docked or "dry stored"). As I understand it (again, I am boatless), the masts on the 25's and 26's can be fairly long and rather heavy, thus stepping isn't exactly a "joy". That being said, I've seen a video of a guy on youtube who claims to have to knock down and step his mast so he can get out to the ocean easier, and he does it in about 5 minutes. I'll see if I can find the link.

JimGo · Sep 28, 2011

Well, that was easier than I thought! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r33VCObNroY

dscribner · Sep 28, 2011

Jimgo,
I couldn't step my mast on the water like he does. I think ours has a larger section so it's heavier (just guessing) but also, ours wanders left to right until the shrouds finally tighten enough to prevent that. It can be REALLY scary. I even have temporary stays to help. One of the reasons may be the tabernacle that I made. Instead of a pivot hole or vertical slot, I made one with an "L" shaped slot. The pivot pin never comes out of the mast. I just slide the mast back into the slot until it falls a couple of inches and I'm good. But I think this introduces too much slop.

If you go to Sum's page, I think he has his mast stepping well cataloged (If I recall correctly). You'll also find a zillion neat mod's that he and the Admiral have done over the past couple of years. Good ideas all.

Don

Tom Hoffman · Sep 28, 2011

Squidd said:
Head room (both kinds) is a big consideration... I'm 6'2" and would like to be comfortable, so I have been leaning towards a "pop top" cabin, but are there boats out there that are known to have good (taller) head room...?

Just by pure accident, I found a boat that fits all the bill of fare that you have elaborated about. The reason I bought it was that I was cheap and I wanted a boat and by accident, I ended up with the boat that fits me and my needs well.

It is an American 26' with a shoal draft keel. Only draws 28" launches easily and retrieves easily. I did have to make my own tongue extension and have had to use it on some ramps.

I am 6'5" and I can stand up full height inside, I only have to tilt my head down just a mite. My head brushes the top with my chin tucked down onto my chest.

The American's are very stiff sailors. I have only sailed on a Hunter water ballast and my boat dosen't heel over any where near as much. My wife and I are novices and we feel secure and safe with this boat. The boat is a tough little boat, mfg in Calif for use off shore. I just ran across a 24'er for sale in Iowa.

The boat has a deep center well that you can stand in when inside the cabin.

Here is the one I found.

http://desmoines.craigslist.org/boa/2558049405.html

Here is mine as I found her.

http://sports.webshots.com/album/576734303qkPIkj

I have since made many modifications so we can sail her with ease. I have run all my lines back to the cockpit and have power controls on my tiller now. No more standing on my head operating the motor and aiming for the dock with my butt. She acts like a grown up boat now.

I bought mine for $1500 and since have put another $2500 in it. It is getting close to what I want. I am going to rebuild all the cabinetry inside this winter, so all the drawers will roll out on full extension drawer slides. Most of the old drawers are broken or stick still.

We did sail in a 24' Compaq down in Florida this spring. That is another boat that is a solid little boat with a shoal draft keel. Very stiff. The only problem I found with it is that I would have had to live on my knees. Not fun.

Here is the American Owners web page.

http://members.cox.net/sholley1/

Like someone said. Don't be in a rush. When the right boat comes along, you will know...

Tom...

Trailerability and launchability

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